Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

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I wonder if Gaster needs the prophecy or the end of the game to happen or if its just for his curiosity. He lets us respawn and change the timeline a bit, so he'd have the power to stop the world from plummeting to darkness without us.
 
Borplesnort said:
I don't think there's a dissonance between between the player and the plot. We were told right at the start that none of our choices matter. Also, we don't know why Kris is doing what he's doing. Who knows what the long game is. This is the first game in a long time for me where I've been invested in the plot and characters. Is Undyne okay? Is the knight someone we know? Why is the knight? What are Titans, really? Why does Susie eat chalk? How close does Noelle put the chair to the bed when she watches? So many questions.
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Noelle will not watch from the chair. Noelle is for Kris if he's a good boy and gets his act together.

Anyway. Yes we were told that none of our choices matter.
BUT. We were given a prophecy, All I can assume from the fact that it exists at all is to do whatever it requires of it to be fulfilled. Only the Soul can seal a Dark Fountain, and the world is covered in Darkness if the player gives up. That must be proof that following the prophecy is our task. If not, it's a roleplaying game with no role.

I'd rather have a new protagonist than have the Kris/Soul nonsense drag on for another chapter without the opportunity to do anything about it. Give me the noble Delta Warrior that Kris was supposed to be, someone who will obey and fight for the side of light. It makes no sense in-universe for the player to take this sitting down, but for some reason the game expects the player to do exactly that.

Never have I seen a game with such contempt for its player.
Treat the player as a separate character, while none of the characters talk to said separate character? Sorry, you've just given me no reason to not care about anything besides my mission. There is no justifiable reason the main characters get to see the final prophecy but not the player.
Play Oneshot instead. Oneshot treats its player with dignity. Is dignity too much to ask for? Is a prominent role in a ROLE PLAYING GAME too much to ask for?
 
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Angry Muda said:
He lets us respawn and change the timeline a bit, so he'd have the power to stop the world from plummeting to darkness without us.
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We don't change anything from the prophecy, so what harm is there in letting us fight a battle we have absolutely no way to win. We can't defy the prophecy because we don't know it, and Kris is there to stop us if things ever start looking dicey.
 
Sentinel of the Green said:
Never have I seen a game with such contempt for its player... ...you've just given me no reason to not care about anything besides my mission.
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Then why are you here? If you feel it's so contemptuous, and you have no investment, go play something else.

And no, deer stalker. Noelle gets the chair. Susie is best girl. Enjoy frozen chicken, candycane child.
 
Borplesnort said:
Then why are you here? If you feel it's so contemptuous, and you have no investment, go play something else.

And no, deer stalker. Noelle gets the chair. Susie is best girl. Enjoy frozen chicken, candycane child.
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Because I enjoy (most of) the gameplay, and the music. I don't enjoy when this particularly rotten part of the narrative rears its ugly head now and again. It takes me out of the experience each and every time. I'm here for the epic fantasy RPG, this generation's Chrono Trigger.
 

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Sentinel of the Green said:
It makes no sense in-universe for the player to take this sitting down, but for some reason the game expects the player to do exactly that.
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For now. Kris's little tantrums are annoying but there's more at stake than a teenagers fee-fees right now. Until we get the full picture, all we can do is seal the fountains like we're supposed to and we can deal with Kris's fountain opening ass when we get to that bridge.


Soon the time will come where we no longer need to tolerate his shit.
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Thinking more about Kris's betrayal not being in the prophecy and now I wonder if it is and Ralsei is misinterpreting it. If you believe in the theory that the final pane is that Kris and Susie will fight and one of them will die, it's possible that Ralsei assumed Susie will instigate the fight because she's mean, which is why he thinks he could subvert it by encouraging everyone to be kind (and why he specifies that nobody has to die.) But Susie isn't the one who will instigate the fight, Kris is. The fun gang will get too close to his and Carol/The Knight's plans, and Kris will be forced to take up his sword against them.
 
RogozubEnjoyer said:
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I never understood the ghost = transgender argument. Ghosts used to be people. Just because they're taking some physical form again does not mean they're trying to be something they never were. You can make the case for Mettaton that his pre-MTT ghost form was super depressed because he no longer had a glorious body for people to swoon over, and you can make the case that the Mad Dummy's drive to be a better sparring partner drove her to inhabit a dummy that could move around more like a human. It's not like we even know what their genders were before they were ghosts. Maybe there is subtext if that's the way you read it the first time, but I can't see it.
 
gaysexenjoyer said:
For now. Kris's little tantrums are annoying but there's more at stake than a teenagers fee-fees right now. Until we get the full picture, all we can do is seal the fountains like we're supposed to and we can deal with Kris's fountain opening ass when we get to that bridge.


Soon the time will come where we no longer need to tolerate his shit.
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But these fee fees are actively endangering everyone Kris know and cares about.
There's no way this development can be going on the entire game, that Kris does something bad and gets away with it, while the game pretends it didn't happen. There has to be an actual payoff to it.
 
Sentinel of the Green said:
But these fee fees are actively endangering everyone Kris know and cares about.
There's no way this development can be going on the entire game, that Kris does something bad and gets away with it, while the game pretends it didn't happen. There has to be an actual payoff to it.
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Well, there's four or five more chapters to go over that. We're only at the halfway point.
 
Niggs Monaghan said:
"Kris is ackshually a good person or trying to be, YOU'RE the real hecking monster for making him do bad things"
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I can see a case for these inappropriate behaviors of his not to be his actual qualities.
For example, in the weird route the way that he tries to pacify Noelle is to say that it was all JUST A PRANK BRO. This is something we know he has a history of doing. So maybe Kris has been dealing with possessions for a while now and anytime he does bad things he plays it off as a prank to make the people he torments feel better?

I don't know if I would like that, though. I kind of enjoy the idea that he is this little weirdo with violent tendencies, who likes to scare the people he cares about because that's just a way to get an emotional reaction from them. And if it ends up being true there was neglect in his household, then that could explain why. I just don't want him to be a full blown 3edgy for me Chara part two. I like that he has soft spots for his friends, hell it's through him I warmed up to Susie. They're easily my favorite interactions to see, especially when Kris acts on his own.

Maybe I want it to be a mix of both. In the minigame, the game outright tells Kris he enjoys what he's doing. And there's lots of allusions to the weird route. Maybe Kris does struggle with control, but is also getting to act out the worst parts of him?
 
Cryogonal2 said:
Well, there's four or five more chapters to go over that. We're only at the halfway point.
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So one scene at the end is supposed to make up for the game's own ignorance?

Ok, but seriously, imagine that the game tries to make an appeal to your emotion that you were the bad guy for playing the game to complete the task you were given, and that you should forgive Kris and let him do whatever he wants. That would be dumb.
 
Sentinel of the Green said:
So one scene at the end is supposed to make up for the game's own ignorance?

Ok, but seriously, imagine that the game tries to make an appeal to your emotion that you were the bad guy for playing the game to complete the task you were given, and that you should forgive Kris and let him do whatever he wants. That would be dumb.
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Why are you getting upset over things that haven't happened? You've made assumptions about the world, characters, and ending of a game that isn't finished yet, and you're upset about this entirely imaginary version of the game that exists only in your head.
 
Dr. Ricearoni said:
you're upset about this entirely imaginary version of the game that exists only in your head.
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Kris is a retard to be fair, I help him in a situation where he's home alone with NOT ONE, BUT TWO girls (99.9% of teenage boys would kill for that) and how does he choose to thank me? Closet hockey stick beatdown

I hope we get to have a vs Kris fight when we get our vessel back so we can beat the shit out of the ungrateful twat, if anything as a payback for the beating we got in Dess's closet.
 
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