Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

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"Kris is ackshually a good person or trying to be, YOU'RE the real hecking monster for making him do bad things"
1) The player never chose to inhabit Kris, Kris was foist upon us as the cage in place of the Vessel
2) Kris consistently chooses, of his own free will, to shove us back in and give us control even when doing Le Hecking ebil weird route

Kris obviously feels that whatever goal he's going after with Carol/the knight/whoever is the most important thing and he continues to willingly let us control him to achieve that goal, even if we directly hurt and possibly kill his friends.

He'll throw impotent tantrums about it and try to help them afterwards, sure, but in the end he'll still give the same eldritch being that made him do those things control of his body again anyway.

I don't think Kris is outright evil (yet) but he's certainly no saint either. If he wanted to he could lock us in the cage forever and toss us into the lake, we're borderline powerless without a vessel in the light world.

But he doesn't. He continues to enable us even if we act like a homicidal psychopath.


Also completely ignoring that, with all the information we have now, Kris is currently trying to cause the apocalypse that will kill everyone he knows, along with working for the villain behind everyones backs to do it. The most fucked up thing the player does in the weird route is mindfuck Noelle and put Berdly in the hospital. That's pretty small potatoes compared to ending the world.
 
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Kris is ackshually a good person or trying to be, YOU'RE the real hecking monster for making him do bad things
People are in love with making Kris an innocent prisoner forced to deal with the player because angst but the truth has been more complicated since the start. It is very likely Kris summoned us themselves anyway. Like Undertale, Kris' nature as protagonist/antagonist will be colored by just how nice or mean the player decides to be.

If you are doing the weird route and raping Noelle, yeah, you're kinda bad. If you're being a nice guy, then there's nothing even remotely approaching villainous about you. Its the entire point of the morality system.

I have faith Toby won't be so retarded about it. Undertale doesnt shit on you outside of the genocide route either.
don't think Kris is outright evil (yet) but he's certainly no saint either
Sword route and ram made it pretty clear some part of Kris enjoys what's happening in Weird route anyway.
 
There's something of a theme with the Prophecy that even the antagonist(s) are actually working towards the same/similar goals as the protagonists. The lines about "banishing the Angel's Heaven" seem to set things up as if the Angel is an antagonist, yet there are is also the line in Chapter 4 about "the Angel, banished, will finally meet its desire." Plus, there's the theme of your choices not mattering, and there supposedly only being one ending of the game.

My working theory right now is that everyone is basically working towards the same goal. Something gets accomplished by the prophecy being fulfilled, and so Team Black Knife is deliberately causing the Roaring just so they can be stopped. After all, the Prophecy can't come to pass if there's no Roaring to begin with! It can lead to an interesting dynamic when you reach the final fight. Everyone wants the same thing, the villain is actually acting in the greater good, but there's no way to avoid the fight because it's necessary to the Prophecy.

I haven't settled on exactly what it is they're getting out of it, though. There's the Gaster stuff, and I think that might factor into the larger plot, but I don't see any reason for Kris, Carol, Dess, nor whoever else to give a shit about that. Maybe as a way to free Dess, if she's in the same sort of limbo as Gaster? Or maybe they revive her as a Darkner, and the Roaring will blur light and dark enough she can cross and stay in the light world? Or it could be about someone or something else entirely. Who knows.
 
including with the Susie and Noelle ship.
I have never seen a single relationship, fictional or IRL, with the setup of Susielle that didn't end up either miserable or outright abusive. Noelle doesn't just have a crush on Susie, she's obsessed with Susie. She constantly fantasizes and talks about Susie to the point she literally dreams about her on a regular basis, on top of outright fetishizing how violent Susie is as the school bully. Even when it's directed towards Kris, her childhood friend, Noelle gets wet at the thought of Susie beating the shit out of people.

The even bigger red flag is the fact that she also becomes visibly upset when anyone else gets close to Susie even platonically, then becoming outright possessive and angry if they show romantic interest in her.

A gentle reminder in case anyone forgot; Noelle and Susie barely know each other. They've spoken to each other for more than a sentence twice, one of which Noelle doesn't even think was real.


The only reason anyone gives Susie x Noelle a pass and ignore how blatantly toxic it is is because it's a (potential) lesbian relationship. It's literally an obsessive stalker lusting over her autistic classmate, and I hope to God Toby is smart enough to see that even through his yurifag fetish goggles.

"the Angel, banished, will finally meet its desire."
We, the player, are the angel. Us being "banished" is Kris permanently removing us from his body after he gets whatever he needs out of us, and "meeting with our desire" is us reuniting with our true vessel from the start of the game. The one we wanted.
Or maybe they revive her as a Darkner, and the Roaring will blur light and dark enough she can cross and stay in the light world? Or it could be about someone or something else entirely. Who knows.
The reason the Black Knife gang want to cause the Roaring is so that the dark world and all it's wonderful gifts become reality. As it stands, the fantasy only lasts as long as the lights stay off. Once the lights come back on the plain, simple truth becomes clear; Darkeners are just objects born from the desires of Lightners, and without the light world they can't exist. But so long as the light world does exist, they'll never truly be real. They're just a fantasy. Fiction.

So what better way to make those fantasies real than to wipe out all light and replace it with eternal darkness? That way, Kris gets whatever he wants deep down (probably his family together and happy again or whatever escapist angsty reason he has), Carol gets her daughter back from the dead and her husband healthy again, and everyone everywhere gets whatever they want, forever.

The whole world becomes a dark fountain that can't be closed because the Earth literally rips itself apart during the Roaring. There's nothing left to seal or banish the darkness back to. It's all just... darkness.

Basically they're choosing the Matrix.
 
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The reason the Black Knife gang want to cause the Roaring is so that the dark world and all it's wonderful gifts become reality. As it stands, the fantasy only lasts as long as the lights stay off. Once the lights come back on the plain, simple truth becomes clear; Darkeners are just objects born from the desires of Lightners, and without the light world they can't exist. But so long as the light world does exist, they'll never truly be real. They're just a fantasy. Fiction.

So what better way to make those fantasies real than to wipe out all light and replace it with eternal darkness? That way, Kris gets whatever he wants deep down (probably his family together and happy again or whatever escapist angsty reason he has), Carol gets her daughter back from the dead and her husband healthy again, and everyone everywhere gets whatever they want, forever.

The whole world becomes a dark fountain that can't be closed because the Earth literally rips itself apart during the Roaring. There's nothing left to seal or banish the darkness back to. It's all just... darkness.

Basically they're choosing the Matrix
Why did toby remove all the epic steampunk from Echo Bazaar, chaps?
 
haven't settled on exactly what it is they're getting out of it, though
Getting Dess back because she fell into the Darker Yet Darker zone Gaster did a long time ago. If you poke around in the files, you can find dialogue from somebody who is lost in the code. This is referenced when you talk to Spamton and he zones our for a second and mutters "Help me... please help."

I know people think Dess is The Knight, but if it IS, it's some unholy thing piloting her body around. Its far more likely that Rudy is the more you think about it.

What do Carol, Dess, AND Kris probably all want? A sympathetic motivation that could serve to pit them against you but also not make them chaotic evil villains? A chance to rescue Dess.
 
Rudy is the more you think about it.
Yeah I saw someone say that in this thread, and it fit so well that I didn't even need it elaborated on. The biggest hint is Susie's Idea conclusion in Chapter 4 that the Knight is no match for them IRL. It makes perfect sense that someone terminally ill like Rudy wouldn't be a match for a pair of regular teenagers. He'd also understand the prophecy since he's a fan of Dragon Blazers, and it would explain how Asgore got his black shard (and who the "old friend" he was talking to is).

That's the theory I'm most confident in so far. I hesitate to take it as a given, though, as I have a pretty bad track record at predicting where each subsequent Chapter will take Deltarune, though.
 
Kris seems neither all good nor all bad and I don't think it's fair to paint him as either until we have the full picture around why he's doing everything he's doing. On that subject, I think it's very interesting that the prophecy doesn't mention Kris's betrayal and even Ralsei seems oblivious to it. I have a theory that Kris is on a weird route of his own, doing bad things to try to break the prophecy on his own terms.
 
I have a theory that Kris is on a weird route of his own, doing bad things to try to break the prophecy on his own terms.
A major thing about Kris is how he feels out of control of his own self/life and acts out because of it. What could be a bigger example of his lack of control than a literal prophecy spelling out who he is and what happens to him?
 
There’s an implication in the phone call between Kris and the unknown caller that Kris may not be able to enter the Dark World without the Player Soul inhabiting him, or at least the Soul is letting him do something there he otherwise couldn’t by himself. So that may also be why he keeps shoving it back in.
 
There’s an implication in the phone call between Kris and the unknown caller that Kris may not be able to enter the Dark World without the Player Soul inhabiting him, or at least the Soul is letting him do something there he otherwise couldn’t by himself. So that may also be why he keeps shoving it back in.
Pretty sure part of the plan is sealing fountains, which Kris needs the Soul to do.
 
Sword route and ram made it pretty clear some part of Kris enjoys what's happening in Weird route anyway.
Honestly it would be a pretty neat twist on the usual "you like hurting people/do you feel like a hero yet?" guilt tripping by it being aimed at Kris instead of the player, to i am not necessarily sure that's what Toby intended.
 
I don't think he's talking to Rudy on the Holiday residence, after church he goes back to the hospital.
Yeah I mean more "speaking to" him than speaking to him. He's monologuing, but it's possibly addressed to Rudy as if he were there.

Or he could just be speaking to an inanimate object. But in a scenario where Rudy is the Knight, I feel like the former is more likely.
 
Honestly it would be a pretty neat twist on the usual "you like hurting people/do you feel like a hero yet?" guilt tripping by it being aimed at Kris instead of the player
I mean that's basically what Sword Route does

Closing fountains, killing Titans, anything that requires a lot of light.
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