War The West Again Learns That War Needs Industry - Biden and NATO leaders, fearing a war of attrition with Russia or China, will focus on rebuilding militaries and their supplies at coming summit

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The West Again Learns That War Needs Industry
The Wall Street Journal (archive.ph)
By Daniel Michaels
2023-07-07 07:39:00GMT

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Ukraine’s conflict with Russia has exposed huge shortfalls in Western defense-industry capacity and organization. Manu Brabo for The Wall Street Journal

Behind the deadly front lines where Ukrainian and Russian soldiers are locked in combat, a less-noticed life-or-death battle is raging to keep troops supplied with arms and ammunition. The side that loses that fight is the one that will lose the war. It is a lesson Washington is relearning.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has exposed huge shortfalls in Western defense-industry capacity and organization. The U.S. and its allies aren’t prepared to fight a protracted war in the Pacific, and would struggle with a long European conflict.

As Adm. Rob Bauer, a top military officer at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, puts it: “Every war, after about five or six days, becomes about logistics.”

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NATO’s Adm. Rob Bauer, right, says the defense industry needs more private-sector support. Photo: olivier hoslet/Shutterstock

If the U.S. clashed head-on with Russia or China, stocks of precision weaponry could be used up in hours or days. Other vital supplies would run out soon after.

Many governments are starting to respond. The U.S. is increasing arms production after decades of focus on terrorism and homeland security. French President Emmanuel Macron has pledged a “war economy” to boost military supplies. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has shed Berlin’s longstanding disdain for military spending.

It is a pivot with echoes of the last century, when the U.S. repeatedly swung its economy to fight wars and face down enemies. Woodrow Wilson nationalized America’s railroads in 1917, and in 1942 Detroit lurched from making cars to churning out tanks and bombers. The Cold War spawned the military-industrial complex.

Nobody’s ready to test those extremes today. To handle newly aggressive adversaries without commandeering industries or exploding national budgets, Washington and its allies will need to try fresh approaches to developing, buying and maintaining military supplies.

“The defense-industrial base that served us after World War II and helped us prevail in the Cold War isn’t the one that is going to help us prevail against China,” says Joseph Votel, a retired four-star Army general who led Special Operations Command and now heads Business Executives for National Security, a nonprofit started in 1982 to bring private-sector know-how to the Pentagon.

The first step will be spending more on defense across the West. In 2014, after Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine and fomented rebellion in the country’s east, NATO members pledged to spend at least 2% of their gross domestic product on defense by 2024.

Only the U.S. and a handful of other members do that so far, though war in Ukraine may finally have broken the logjam. Around half of NATO’s 31 members could hit 2% next year, alliance diplomats say.

Ambitions are increasing, too. When NATO leaders meet in Lithuania next week for their annual summit, they expect to cement 2% of GDP as the spending minimum, not an aspiration. Over the past year, NATO and the European Union have also assumed new roles coordinating and consolidating arms procurement to boost efficiency and accelerate rearmament.

But more is needed, say Votel and his colleagues, starting with a new postindustrial mind-set. Many see a model in how Ukraine is drawing expertise from across society to develop defensive systems that bridge advanced digital savvy and grease-covered Soviet hardware.

First, say advocates of a new approach, the Pentagon should acknowledge it no longer owns the cutting edge of technology—even though it once launched transformative innovations, such as the internet and GPS.

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Washington and its allies need to try fresh approaches to developing, buying and maintaining military supplies. Photo: valda kalnina/Shutterstock
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The military needs huge quantities of some items, such as artillery shells and rifles. Photo: Vadim Ghirda/Associated Press

“Our nation leads in many emerging technologies relevant to defense and security—from artificial intelligence and directed energy to quantum information technology and beyond,” a panel of former top Defense Department officials said in a recent report for the Atlantic Council, a Washington think tank. “But the DoD struggles to identify, adopt, integrate and field these technologies into military applications.”

The commission, led by former Defense Secretary Mark Esper, offered 10 recommendations that ranged from encouraging tech companies to do business with the Pentagon to modernizing its budgeting documents.

Others say that rather than conceiving multidecade moonshots, as in the Cold War, the Pentagon should learn to quickly draw on existing innovations, as smaller allies have done, and Ukraine is doing.

“The Defense Department set itself up to export technology,” says James “Hondo” Geurts, a former assistant secretary of the Navy and Air Force officer with extensive acquisitions experience. “Now it needs to become a smart importer of technology.”

On the Florida panhandle, a gaggle of military brainstorming centers are working to test what is possible outside a war zone. Defensewerx, a nonprofit organization closely tied to the Pentagon, links the defense establishment with small businesses and academia, working to bring innovation and a disrupter mentality to arms development and contracting.

A challenge, say skeptics, is that projects launched in a military “Monster Garage” often founder at industrial scale.

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Defense is massively expensive, and not just for cutting-edge equipment. Photo: Mustafa Yalcin/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images

Defense planners must also get more entrepreneurial, say advocates of change—and some are already. NATO’s Bauer recently flew to the Pacific coast in Los Angeles, not for naval maneuvers but to address a finance-oriented conference.

“We need private investors to support the defense industry,” the Dutch officer told the Milken Institute’s global gathering in May.

Defense is massively expensive, and not just Top Gun equipment such as F-35 jet fighters costing around $100 million apiece. The Navy has estimated that a 20-year modernization of four major shipyards, which maintain aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines and average a century old, will cost $21 billion—and a senior Government Accountability Office official last year called those estimates “wildly off point.”

The protracted refurbishment limits repair capacity, leaving warships at pier awaiting work and reducing America’s active fleet available for threat response. Multibillion-dollar assets idly aging in saltwater cost taxpayers, warn critics.

Rather than drag out shipyard renovations over two decades, says Sam Cole, a finance-sector professional who serves on the BENS board under Votel, it would make more sense to get the work done quickly so the yards are fully functional sooner.

The Pentagon could struggle to fund all that, given government budgeting rules, Cole acknowledged. Instead, it could take a more private-sector approach to financing by turning to debt markets, raising around $50 billion and completing the work in about four years.

“Being able to tap capital markets would enable you to put the project on steroids,” says Cole.

Funding defense outside the Pentagon’s budget would break tradition, but advocates note that other parts of the government already do it. The Commerce and Agriculture departments are leveraging capital markets to finance investments in necessities from microchips to fertilizer.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin last December took a step in that direction, launching the Office of Strategic Capital, an in-house tech incubator empowered to partner with private financiers. The Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or Darpa, has gained legendary status for its role in helping fund Silicon Valley’s rise, but its financial firepower is limited.

The OSC is unusual for the Pentagon because it can employ loans, guarantees and other financial tools not typically used by the U.S. military, which relies mainly on contracts and grants. It aims to help startups grow and work with the Pentagon, and to nurture new technologies that may support defense. At its launch, officials noted that while the Defense Department has rich programs to foster innovation, Pentagon contracting and legal rules pose daunting hurdles for startups.

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The U.S. Navy has estimated that a 20-year modernization of four major shipyards will cost $21 billion. Photo: Spencer Platt/Getty Images

In rebuilding military industries, small business also needs attention. Defense giants once tapped supply chains that extended to thousands of workshops supplying basic components. Industry consolidation, globalization and shrinking demand after the Cold War eroded that base. Today, subcontractors are as likely to be independent software developers as metal-bashers, but they face similar headaches with business fundamentals such as financing research and development.

Defense giants handling massive arms projects generally work on a cost basis, meaning they can usually hand the Pentagon a bill for their R&D spending, says Frank Finelli, another finance professional on the BENS board. But almost all midsize companies in the defense industry are subcontractors, so are unable to pass along development costs.

“You’re asking me to invest my own money in R&D” for the Pentagon, Finelli says he hears from smaller companies. The U.S., the world’s financial-markets leader, should be able to find a solution, he says. “This is about having access to financial agility at scale.”

Agility is increasingly vital in manufacturing, too. The F-35, America’s newest jet fighter, is a marvel of networked computers that can hover and fly supersonic. But much of it is still built by hand in a Texas factory where each plane steps along an assembly line from one production station to the next, notes Stacie Pettyjohn, director of the defense program at the Center for a New American Security.

The Pentagon’s next generation of equipment will need to rely on commercial industries’ advances in production technologies, from 3-D printing to factory automation, says Pettyjohn. “New manufacturing systems for new defense systems will be critical.”

Equally ripe for an overhaul is how the Pentagon turns ideas into equipment. The military needs eye-popping quantities of some items, such as artillery shells and rifles, but a lot of equipment is needed in versions customized for specific tasks, which can vary widely across services and in elite units such as special forces.

How to combine mass production and variety has long plagued defense planners. The F-35 was envisioned 30 years ago as a single low-cost plane with different options for the Air Force, Navy and Marines. But in traditional fashion, costs and complexity ballooned as delays mounted.

“The Defense Department has a poor track record in rapid development and production,” says Pettyjohn. “They’ve shot for the moon on everything.”
 
This whole "ZOMG guyz we are running out of stuff cuz of Ukraine" isn't true. It wasn't true last year and it's not true now.


Joe seems to disagree with your assessment
 
I highly doubt ODS a war that lasted a few weeks used up even a good portion of the US stockpiles.
Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm used a SHITTON of H104, 155mm, 8" round. Iraq and Kuwait was hit for 40 days and 40 nights of constant barrages. The H104's left at the rate of 500 an hour from Log Base Echo and Log Base Alpha, with a turnaround time for a full reload of an entire Battalion in less than 2 hours. Shifts entirely devoted just to H104. They were coming off the ships and being loaded at the docks, then shipped to Echo and Alpha by the hundreds of trailers a day. Same with the arty rounds. Prop charges at one point became priority to the point that they were being pulled from Europe ASPs and FSTS units, moved to the nearest airfield, and being loaded onto C140's, C141, and C5's to land at temporary landing fields, to be offloaded, shipped to Echo and Alpha for accountability and spot inspection, then rolling to the units without being offloaded from the trailers they were loaded onto.

The sheer amount of firepower being put out by US units during the Air War and the leadup to the Ground War is staggering.
Especially since the US wasn't the only country involved in that war.
The others might as well not have even been there.
Again the war in Afghanistan and the 2004 invasion of Iraq were also pretty low intensity conflicts.
Low intensity compared to what was doctrine for the Cold War, maybe, but it still used a LOT of artillery.
Even if the US was in Afghanistan for a little over 20 years and in Iraq for less time than that they still weren't modern conventional wars. What war did the US fight that no one else knows about that caused it to use up all of it's late cold war stockpiles and everything that was stockpiled in the 90's?
NOTHING was stockpiled in the 1990's. Production lines were cut or downsized. Ordnance Command never received the resupply to equal the Cold War stocks because it was a new military, retooled for light conflicts and sharp kinetic wars rather than artillery duels.

This was a major point of contention in the upper command structure, many of whom believed there would never be a near-peer conflict ever again and so we didn't need the massive stockpiles that we had prior to 1991.
The Ukrainians requested the cluster bombs. They were not sent to Ukraine because the US is running out of stuff to give them.
There's cluster bombs and then there are cluster bombs. A 155mm FASCAM is different than a H104.
This has all been talked about before. The US was running out of weapons and ammo to give Ukraine last year. But here we are and the US still has enough weapons and ammo to keep Ukraine stocked up. Ukraine lost 17 or 18 Bradleys in the early stages of their counteroffensive and the US supplied them with 15 more to replace what was lost or damaged.
With the unit closures, base closures, and the drawdowns there are a LOT of BIFVs sitting in depots. Another thing is there are maintenance problems at the Third Shop level involving certain parts, but that's neither here nor there. The thing is, there are PLENTY of BIFV's to go around, as many units were pushing to replace the Bradley during the mid 00's and early 10's. The Stryker replaced a lot of Bradleys.
This whole "ZOMG guyz we are running out of stuff cuz of Ukraine" isn't true. It wasn't true last year and it's not true now.
Well, then I'll just remind the SOF guys that the weapon systems they had removed from their armored and FSTS's are actually still there.
 
The stocks weren't rebuilt in the 1990's.

Much of the ammunition brought out of the bunkers in Western Europe was destroyed due to lack of space for storage or just age.

Artillery such as H104's, 155mm, 8", and 105mm were used HEAVILY in Desert Storm and never really replaced through the 1990's due to the shutdown of many ammunition lines.

Stingers were already having components go bad, but the production line replacement was extremely slow. More Stingers were going bad and needed the 55B's to replace components.

During the 1990's Ordnance Corps complained repeatedly about out of date stocks not being replaced. (Several times in the 1990's and early 2000's there were deaths and injuries due to ammunition that should have been emergency CC:H'd out being used for training instead and killing people)

Manufacturing lines, including some major ones, were shut down or severely reduced under Clinton.

And bunkers STILL weren't reloaded by the time 9-11 happened.

Artillery, specifically 8" rounds, were still being used in Afghanistan, including FASCAM rounds that were often used to block Taliban retreats by scattering them behind it. The H104 rounds were often used to deny trails. Artillery support was used extensively during the entire 20 years. Additionally, air support was consuming ammunitions, from 30mm APDSDU to 2.75" rockets, which were being consumed but not replaced as quickly.

The whole time, the replacement lagged behind consumption or wasn't used at all. 9mm and 5.56mm and 7.62mm all lagged behind usage, to the point where it was difficult for even Law Enforcement to get ahold of the 5.56mm and the 9mm round.

Ordnance Corps began issuing serious warnings regarding 155mm and 8" rounds starting in 2010, suggesting the three (at the time) manufacturing locations be allowed to open up additional lines. Rather than allow that, one was closed, leaving only Lake City and Iowa Ammunition Plant, both running at less than full capacity.
No, you're ignorant of the realities.

Here, just have the modern rifle:
https://www.npr.org/2023/04/07/1168725028/manufacturing-price-gauging-new-u-s-military-arms
Additionally, it will be 5+ years before any number is produced domestically.

And more additionally, the past two decades "minimum stockpile" has been revised downward. While some people talk about "significant stores" of 5.56mm and 7.62mm, the reality is that the minimum amount was downsized. Right now, units are being brushed off from the range because of ammunition shortages. For example, Remington and Winchester both got contracts to produce 10 million 9mm rounds over the next 10 years. This is to replace a nearly 20 million shortage in stockpile sizes since 2006, when the Bush Administration declined to have Remington and Winchester open additional manufacturing lines, which Obama also refused.

The War on Terror was weird, as the American industry to support the war wasn't fired up, but instead old Cold War stocks (depleted due to Desert Storm, Bosnia, and other conflicts as well as age and degradation) were burned through without being replaced.

But then, you know, you think you're right even though you have no idea why the idea to use pre-1988 5.56mm ammunition in 2010 was the dumbest fucking thing they could have done.
I highly doubt ODS a war that lasted a few weeks used up even a good portion of the US stockpiles. Especially since the US wasn't the only country involved in that war. Again the war in Afghanistan and the 2004 invasion of Iraq were also pretty low intensity conflicts. Even if the US was in Afghanistan for a little over 20 years and in Iraq for less time than that they still weren't modern conventional wars. What war did the US fight that no one else knows about that caused it to use up all of it's late cold war stockpiles and everything that was stockpiled in the 90's?

The Ukrainians requested the cluster bombs. They were not sent to Ukraine because the US is running out of stuff to give them. This has all been talked about before. The US was running out of weapons and ammo to give Ukraine last year. But here we are and the US still has enough weapons and ammo to keep Ukraine stocked up. Ukraine lost 17 or 18 Bradleys in the early stages of their counteroffensive and the US supplied them with 15 more to replace what was lost or damaged.

This whole "ZOMG guyz we are running out of stuff cuz of Ukraine" isn't true. It wasn't true last year and it's not true now.
 
I highly doubt ODS a war that lasted a few weeks used up even a good portion of the US stockpiles.
Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm used a SHITTON of H104, 155mm, 8" round. Iraq and Kuwait was hit for 40 days and 40 nights of constant barrages. The H104's left at the rate of 500 an hour from Log Base Echo and Log Base Alpha, with a turnaround time for a full reload of an entire Battalion in less than 2 hours. Shifts entirely devoted just to H104. They were coming off the ships and being loaded at the docks, then shipped to Echo and Alpha by the hundreds of trailers a day. Same with the arty rounds. Prop charges at one point became priority to the point that they were being pulled from Europe ASPs and FSTS units, moved to the nearest airfield, and being loaded onto C140's, C141, and C5's to land at temporary landing fields, to be offloaded, shipped to Echo and Alpha for accountability and spot inspection, then rolling to the units without being offloaded from the trailers they were loaded onto.

The sheer amount of firepower being put out by US units during the Air War and the leadup to the Ground War is staggering.

The U.S. deployed over 230 MLRS systems during Operation Desert Storm,

Those things fired 2 pods each, ripple fire, virtually constantly.

Imagine how many rounds were fired in a DAY by those.

Especially since the US wasn't the only country involved in that war.
They might as well not have even been there. The bulk of the work was done by the US Army.
Again the war in Afghanistan and the 2004 invasion of Iraq were also pretty low intensity conflicts.
That used the fuck out of arty and H104.
Even if the US was in Afghanistan for a little over 20 years and in Iraq for less time than that they still weren't modern conventional wars.
FASCAM and H104's were broadly used.
What war did the US fight that no one else knows about that caused it to use up all of it's late cold war stockpiles and everything that was stockpiled in the 90's?
There was no stockpiling in the 1990's. The stockpile rates were lowered under Clinton.

NOTHING was stockpiled in the 1990's. Production lines were cut or downsized. Ordnance Command never received the resupply to equal the Cold War stocks because it was a new military, retooled for light conflicts and sharp kinetic wars rather than artillery duels.

This was a major point of contention in the upper command structure, many of whom believed there would never be a near-peer conflict ever again and so we didn't need the massive stockpiles that we had prior to 1991.
The Ukrainians requested the cluster bombs.
There's cluster bombs then there are cluster bombs. Are they talking 8" FASCAM? Are they talking H104? Are they talking Air Force delivered cluster munitions? What are they talking about using?

Because some of it hasn't been manufactured since the late 1980's.
They were not sent to Ukraine because the US is running out of stuff to give them. This has all been talked about before. The US was running out of weapons and ammo to give Ukraine last year. But here we are and the US still has enough weapons and ammo to keep Ukraine stocked up. Ukraine lost 17 or 18 Bradleys in the early stages of their counteroffensive and the US supplied them with 15 more to replace what was lost or damaged.
With the unit closures, base closures, and the drawdowns there are a LOT of BIFVs sitting in depots. Another thing is there are maintenance problems at the Third Shop level involving certain parts, but that's neither here nor there. The thing is, there are PLENTY of BIFV's to go around, as many units were pushing to replace the Bradley during the mid 00's and early 10's. The Stryker replaced a lot of Bradleys.
This whole "ZOMG guyz we are running out of stuff cuz of Ukraine" isn't true. It wasn't true last year and it's not true now.
It's definitely true.

I'm sure you keep up with Ordnance Corps newsletters and the like.

I'll tell the SF guys that the weapons and munitions pulled from Delta Sites and from the SF armories are actually still there. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

Let me explain something to you.

A basic load (back in the day) was 180 rounds. A standard company (before "Force Modernization" gutted them) were about 250. We'll round up to 200 and down to 200. That's 40,000 rounds to hand an infantry company their basic load. ONE company.

A million rounds of 5.56mm sounds like a lot until your realize that those million rounds could only give out a BASIC LOAD of 25 companies. Add in that it was usually 5 units per battalion, that's 5 battalions.

ONE MILLION 5.56mm would only provide a basic load for 1 single brigade.

Now you're starting to see the sheer NUMBERS that had to be in the bunkers of the storage areas.

Add in that each day there are 10-25 companies out doing ranges to qualify or practice, 5 to 7 days a week, and you'll see how long your million rounds of ammo last.

Think of how much it's going to take to train the ENTIRE US MILITARY on the new rifle.

Now tell me how the anemic supply line for that new ammo is even going to allow the US military to train on that weapon to basic skill in the next 5 years.
 
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It's always NUT UH ITS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THE US TO RUN OUT OF STUFF with these people. Ignore the fact the US already has canceled multiple training missions over the past year because a lack of munitions prevents the unit from doing anything but twiddle their thumbs: Article or the fact that the US is astoundingly far behind the in their production for orders from allied nations. Some of these outstanding orders from 2015 haven't even started production almost 8 years later.

PRODUCTION BOTTLENECK ACK.jpg
Source
This chart is from the beginning of the year and almost certainly its well out of date after 7 months of heavy fighting. This is the timeframe it would take in terms of production just to get back to pre-war levels of stock for the US. Everyone can keep their head in the sky delusionally if they want, but the defense industry currently is panicking for good reason, the past 50 years of heavy industry outsourcing and closure of petrochemical companies is coming home to roost, they think they can change this with some 'WW2 turn around" but this is fantasty, all of the heavy industry is rusted away ruins like the kind you see in Detroit.
 
Now tell me how the anemic supply line for that new ammo is even going to allow the US military to train on that weapon to basic skill in the next 5 years.
VR headset training.

Yes, that is retarded, but America's leaders are dumb enough to be MovieBob with power. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: WWII America was built by Henry Ford and Andrew Carneige. Current Year America is built by Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. One group of American Oligarchs make planes and tanks and ships, the other makes Metaverse, Just in Time supply chains, and Twitter.
 
Now tell me how the anemic supply line for that new ammo is even going to allow the US military to train on that weapon to basic skill in the next 5 years.

The Next Generation Has Arrived (Archive)

SIG SAUER is proud to announce the official expansion of the MCX series of rifles with the new MCX-SPEAR chambered in 277 SIG FURY. The MCX-SPEAR was developed with direct input from U.S. warfighters to provide more power, distance, and accuracy to replace the current M4 rifle platform. The MCX-SPEAR is now the most innovative and advanced AR platform in the world.

The MCX-SPEAR is an adaptable multi-caliber rifle (277 SIG FURY, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7.62 NATO, with barrel change) featuring rear and side non-reciprocating charging handles, 6-position folding stock, ambidextrous fire control, bolt-catch, and mag release, 2-stage match trigger, 2-position adjustable gas piston, a lightened free-float M-LOK™ handguard, a full-length picatinny rail, and ships with (2) 20-round magazines.

What is your view as a infantry man, on the replacement for the M16A4, which had a single stage trigger and picatinny rails and a fixed buttstock for this thing that has a two stage trigger and folding stock and MLOKs, which has a bit of a longer learning curve to get right.
 
What is your view as a infantry man, on the replacement for the M16A4, which had a single stage trigger and picatinny rails and a fixed buttstock for this thing that has a two stage trigger and folding stock and MLOKs, which has a bit of a longer learning curve to get right.
Wasn't infantry.

I carried an M16A1/M203.

That sounds like a lot of stupid shit that mouth breathing retards will break in 30 seconds.

As a former armorer, this thing sounds like a pain in the ass to keep working.

Too many moving parts.
 
Wasn't infantry.

I carried an M16A1/M203.

That sounds like a lot of stupid shit that mouth breathing retards will break in 30 seconds.

As a former armorer, this thing sounds like a pain in the ass to keep working.

Too many moving parts.
Somebody paid big bucks to get the M-16 design through and it ended up getting a lot of guys killed, especially because they didn't send cleaning kits with them. AR fags might scream that AKs are "commie trash" but the Kalashnikov has a reputation for reliability for a reason.

Granted, they did correct a lot of the issues it had but they never should have had those kinds of problems in the first place. All this talk about the next-gen super-Sig rifles makes me skeptical of them. It wouldn't be the first time billions of dollars were dumped on a program whose brainchild ended up in a desert boneyard.
 
This is an issue that was clear months into the conflict. Such as the case of the first round of Javelins we sent over reportablely needing 5 years minimum to actually replace, or stingers still being up in the air in terms of production. We have underestimated the effectiveness of our weapons and the amount that are needed for a modern conflict. The US/NATO still drags along, at most overpaying and underdelivering. What is needed isn't just production either, but also clearing out corruption in the arms industry. I would not be surprised if the arms industry itself is pushing insane propaganda involving US weapons in the Ukraine War. People in general would be FAR more pissed off if they saw that US arms aren't the wunderwaffens they have been advertised as for decades. Sadly the same can be said for practically every branch of US government, hell governments in the west in general.

If the US/NATO were smart, they would just cut their loses in Ukraine and instead focus their resources on affordable production and re-industrialization. However, most are too corrupt to fathom it(Likely making a short term profit as well), or are just too senile to even see past their own propaganda.
 
Somebody paid big bucks to get the M-16 design through and it ended up getting a lot of guys killed, especially because they didn't send cleaning kits with them. AR fags might scream that AKs are "commie trash" but the Kalashnikov has a reputation for reliability for a reason.

Granted, they did correct a lot of the issues it had but they never should have had those kinds of problems in the first place. All this talk about the next-gen super-Sig rifles makes me skeptical of them. It wouldn't be the first time billions of dollars were dumped on a program whose brainchild ended up in a desert boneyard.

There was the M14 before it.

Which was only semi auto and never made full auto.

The Italians figured out a way to make it full auto.
 
There was the M14 before it.

Which was only semi auto and never made full auto.

The Italians figured out a way to make it full auto.
While the idea of a full auto battle rifle in .308 sounds good I think the recoil will make most people not want to touch it.
 
If the US/NATO were smart, they would just cut their loses in Ukraine and instead focus their resources on affordable production and re-industrialization. However, most are too corrupt to fathom it(Likely making a short term profit as well), or are just too senile to even see past their own propaganda.
Both are true at the same time, but even if it weren't, arms companies need long-term contracts so that they don't get stuck with overstock that they can't sell. Current production numbers are where they are because demand for bulk arms and ordinance wasn't a foreseen consequence, and in fairness, weapons in peacetime sit in the armory. It doesn't make sense to have a massive stockpile that can expire. State definitely dropped the ball as they couldn't even stall for time until Defense production got up to speed, as well as failing to negotiate in general.
 
Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm used a SHITTON of H104, 155mm, 8" round. Iraq and Kuwait was hit for 40 days and 40 nights of constant barrages. The H104's left at the rate of 500 an hour from Log Base Echo and Log Base Alpha, with a turnaround time for a full reload of an entire Battalion in less than 2 hours. Shifts entirely devoted just to H104. They were coming off the ships and being loaded at the docks, then shipped to Echo and Alpha by the hundreds of trailers a day. Same with the arty rounds. Prop charges at one point became priority to the point that they were being pulled from Europe ASPs and FSTS units, moved to the nearest airfield, and being loaded onto C140's, C141, and C5's to land at temporary landing fields, to be offloaded, shipped to Echo and Alpha for accountability and spot inspection, then rolling to the units without being offloaded from the trailers they were loaded onto.

The sheer amount of firepower being put out by US units during the Air War and the leadup to the Ground War is staggering.
It's always NUT UH ITS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THE US TO RUN OUT OF STUFF with these people. Ignore the fact the US already has canceled multiple training missions over the past year because a lack of munitions prevents the unit from doing anything but twiddle their thumbs: Article or the fact that the US is astoundingly far behind the in their production for orders from allied nations. Some of these outstanding orders from 2015 haven't even started production almost 8 years later.

View attachment 5201779
Source
This chart is from the beginning of the year and almost certainly its well out of date after 7 months of heavy fighting. This is the timeframe it would take in terms of production just to get back to pre-war levels of stock for the US. Everyone can keep their head in the sky delusionally if they want, but the defense industry currently is panicking for good reason, the past 50 years of heavy industry outsourcing and closure of petrochemical companies is coming home to roost, they think they can change this with some 'WW2 turn around" but this is fantasty, all of the heavy industry is rusted away ruins like the kind you see in Detroit.
If the US is running out of military stuff then the Russians must be near the breaking point and about to surrender. Oh wait, their military was gutted by corruption and corrupt military officials sold a lot of their stuff off. Putin is burning through the old Soviet inheritance stockpiles. But the Russians still manage to pull some old rusted up AK's old tanks or old missiles out of their asses to send to Ukraine. I am sure the US will be fine. Just the stuff the stuff the us is sending is better. The Russians are digging out their old stockpiles of stuff that was already obsolete 30-40 years ago.

You can think whatever you want about the war in Ukraine and the US giving them weapons and money. Agree or disagree. But to say the US is running out of military hardware ammo vehicles whatever is just wrong. It's factually wrong. It's not just wrong it's stupid. When you say it you look stupid. I am an American. I live in America. I know where our money went. It wasn't used on a national healthcare service or a working efficient mass transport system for the public. My point is it was spent somewhere else. The US spends 800 billion a year on military. The only time this changed was when Obammy was in office, and he cut spending to something like 500 billion a year and cancelled a bunch of military programs. Boomers acted like this was the end of the world. The US military was running on fumes. This was all BS. Despite what some people say the US military is the biggest welfare queen in the US. No, the average ghetto nigger doesn't come close. So don't tell some BS about how the US is running out of military supplies and equipment when the US spends that much money on the military.

This whole ZOMG guyz the US is running out of stuff for it's own military vatnigger BS has already been debunked. If the Russians can dust off some old T-55's and T-62's to send to Ukraine I am sure the US will find something to send them.


This is an issue that was clear months into the conflict. Such as the case of the first round of Javelins we sent over reportablely needing 5 years minimum to actually replace, or stingers still being up in the air in terms of production. We have underestimated the effectiveness of our weapons and the amount that are needed for a modern conflict. The US/NATO still drags along, at most overpaying and underdelivering. What is needed isn't just production either, but also clearing out corruption in the arms industry. I would not be surprised if the arms industry itself is pushing insane propaganda involving US weapons in the Ukraine War. People in general would be FAR more pissed off if they saw that US arms aren't the wunderwaffens they have been advertised as for decades. Sadly the same can be said for practically every branch of US government, hell governments in the west in general.

If the US/NATO were smart, they would just cut their loses in Ukraine and instead focus their resources on affordable production and re-industrialization. However, most are too corrupt to fathom it(Likely making a short term profit as well), or are just too senile to even see past their own propaganda.
The Stinger isn't even in production anymore. Most of the stuff the Ukrainians are getting is old stuff the US had sitting around in storage and was set to be disposed of. It's cheaper to give to Ukraine than dispose of it.
 
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