War The West Again Learns That War Needs Industry - Biden and NATO leaders, fearing a war of attrition with Russia or China, will focus on rebuilding militaries and their supplies at coming summit

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The West Again Learns That War Needs Industry
The Wall Street Journal (archive.ph)
By Daniel Michaels
2023-07-07 07:39:00GMT

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Ukraine’s conflict with Russia has exposed huge shortfalls in Western defense-industry capacity and organization. Manu Brabo for The Wall Street Journal

Behind the deadly front lines where Ukrainian and Russian soldiers are locked in combat, a less-noticed life-or-death battle is raging to keep troops supplied with arms and ammunition. The side that loses that fight is the one that will lose the war. It is a lesson Washington is relearning.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has exposed huge shortfalls in Western defense-industry capacity and organization. The U.S. and its allies aren’t prepared to fight a protracted war in the Pacific, and would struggle with a long European conflict.

As Adm. Rob Bauer, a top military officer at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, puts it: “Every war, after about five or six days, becomes about logistics.”

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NATO’s Adm. Rob Bauer, right, says the defense industry needs more private-sector support. Photo: olivier hoslet/Shutterstock

If the U.S. clashed head-on with Russia or China, stocks of precision weaponry could be used up in hours or days. Other vital supplies would run out soon after.

Many governments are starting to respond. The U.S. is increasing arms production after decades of focus on terrorism and homeland security. French President Emmanuel Macron has pledged a “war economy” to boost military supplies. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has shed Berlin’s longstanding disdain for military spending.

It is a pivot with echoes of the last century, when the U.S. repeatedly swung its economy to fight wars and face down enemies. Woodrow Wilson nationalized America’s railroads in 1917, and in 1942 Detroit lurched from making cars to churning out tanks and bombers. The Cold War spawned the military-industrial complex.

Nobody’s ready to test those extremes today. To handle newly aggressive adversaries without commandeering industries or exploding national budgets, Washington and its allies will need to try fresh approaches to developing, buying and maintaining military supplies.

“The defense-industrial base that served us after World War II and helped us prevail in the Cold War isn’t the one that is going to help us prevail against China,” says Joseph Votel, a retired four-star Army general who led Special Operations Command and now heads Business Executives for National Security, a nonprofit started in 1982 to bring private-sector know-how to the Pentagon.

The first step will be spending more on defense across the West. In 2014, after Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine and fomented rebellion in the country’s east, NATO members pledged to spend at least 2% of their gross domestic product on defense by 2024.

Only the U.S. and a handful of other members do that so far, though war in Ukraine may finally have broken the logjam. Around half of NATO’s 31 members could hit 2% next year, alliance diplomats say.

Ambitions are increasing, too. When NATO leaders meet in Lithuania next week for their annual summit, they expect to cement 2% of GDP as the spending minimum, not an aspiration. Over the past year, NATO and the European Union have also assumed new roles coordinating and consolidating arms procurement to boost efficiency and accelerate rearmament.

But more is needed, say Votel and his colleagues, starting with a new postindustrial mind-set. Many see a model in how Ukraine is drawing expertise from across society to develop defensive systems that bridge advanced digital savvy and grease-covered Soviet hardware.

First, say advocates of a new approach, the Pentagon should acknowledge it no longer owns the cutting edge of technology—even though it once launched transformative innovations, such as the internet and GPS.

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Washington and its allies need to try fresh approaches to developing, buying and maintaining military supplies. Photo: valda kalnina/Shutterstock
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The military needs huge quantities of some items, such as artillery shells and rifles. Photo: Vadim Ghirda/Associated Press

“Our nation leads in many emerging technologies relevant to defense and security—from artificial intelligence and directed energy to quantum information technology and beyond,” a panel of former top Defense Department officials said in a recent report for the Atlantic Council, a Washington think tank. “But the DoD struggles to identify, adopt, integrate and field these technologies into military applications.”

The commission, led by former Defense Secretary Mark Esper, offered 10 recommendations that ranged from encouraging tech companies to do business with the Pentagon to modernizing its budgeting documents.

Others say that rather than conceiving multidecade moonshots, as in the Cold War, the Pentagon should learn to quickly draw on existing innovations, as smaller allies have done, and Ukraine is doing.

“The Defense Department set itself up to export technology,” says James “Hondo” Geurts, a former assistant secretary of the Navy and Air Force officer with extensive acquisitions experience. “Now it needs to become a smart importer of technology.”

On the Florida panhandle, a gaggle of military brainstorming centers are working to test what is possible outside a war zone. Defensewerx, a nonprofit organization closely tied to the Pentagon, links the defense establishment with small businesses and academia, working to bring innovation and a disrupter mentality to arms development and contracting.

A challenge, say skeptics, is that projects launched in a military “Monster Garage” often founder at industrial scale.

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Defense is massively expensive, and not just for cutting-edge equipment. Photo: Mustafa Yalcin/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images

Defense planners must also get more entrepreneurial, say advocates of change—and some are already. NATO’s Bauer recently flew to the Pacific coast in Los Angeles, not for naval maneuvers but to address a finance-oriented conference.

“We need private investors to support the defense industry,” the Dutch officer told the Milken Institute’s global gathering in May.

Defense is massively expensive, and not just Top Gun equipment such as F-35 jet fighters costing around $100 million apiece. The Navy has estimated that a 20-year modernization of four major shipyards, which maintain aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines and average a century old, will cost $21 billion—and a senior Government Accountability Office official last year called those estimates “wildly off point.”

The protracted refurbishment limits repair capacity, leaving warships at pier awaiting work and reducing America’s active fleet available for threat response. Multibillion-dollar assets idly aging in saltwater cost taxpayers, warn critics.

Rather than drag out shipyard renovations over two decades, says Sam Cole, a finance-sector professional who serves on the BENS board under Votel, it would make more sense to get the work done quickly so the yards are fully functional sooner.

The Pentagon could struggle to fund all that, given government budgeting rules, Cole acknowledged. Instead, it could take a more private-sector approach to financing by turning to debt markets, raising around $50 billion and completing the work in about four years.

“Being able to tap capital markets would enable you to put the project on steroids,” says Cole.

Funding defense outside the Pentagon’s budget would break tradition, but advocates note that other parts of the government already do it. The Commerce and Agriculture departments are leveraging capital markets to finance investments in necessities from microchips to fertilizer.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin last December took a step in that direction, launching the Office of Strategic Capital, an in-house tech incubator empowered to partner with private financiers. The Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or Darpa, has gained legendary status for its role in helping fund Silicon Valley’s rise, but its financial firepower is limited.

The OSC is unusual for the Pentagon because it can employ loans, guarantees and other financial tools not typically used by the U.S. military, which relies mainly on contracts and grants. It aims to help startups grow and work with the Pentagon, and to nurture new technologies that may support defense. At its launch, officials noted that while the Defense Department has rich programs to foster innovation, Pentagon contracting and legal rules pose daunting hurdles for startups.

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The U.S. Navy has estimated that a 20-year modernization of four major shipyards will cost $21 billion. Photo: Spencer Platt/Getty Images

In rebuilding military industries, small business also needs attention. Defense giants once tapped supply chains that extended to thousands of workshops supplying basic components. Industry consolidation, globalization and shrinking demand after the Cold War eroded that base. Today, subcontractors are as likely to be independent software developers as metal-bashers, but they face similar headaches with business fundamentals such as financing research and development.

Defense giants handling massive arms projects generally work on a cost basis, meaning they can usually hand the Pentagon a bill for their R&D spending, says Frank Finelli, another finance professional on the BENS board. But almost all midsize companies in the defense industry are subcontractors, so are unable to pass along development costs.

“You’re asking me to invest my own money in R&D” for the Pentagon, Finelli says he hears from smaller companies. The U.S., the world’s financial-markets leader, should be able to find a solution, he says. “This is about having access to financial agility at scale.”

Agility is increasingly vital in manufacturing, too. The F-35, America’s newest jet fighter, is a marvel of networked computers that can hover and fly supersonic. But much of it is still built by hand in a Texas factory where each plane steps along an assembly line from one production station to the next, notes Stacie Pettyjohn, director of the defense program at the Center for a New American Security.

The Pentagon’s next generation of equipment will need to rely on commercial industries’ advances in production technologies, from 3-D printing to factory automation, says Pettyjohn. “New manufacturing systems for new defense systems will be critical.”

Equally ripe for an overhaul is how the Pentagon turns ideas into equipment. The military needs eye-popping quantities of some items, such as artillery shells and rifles, but a lot of equipment is needed in versions customized for specific tasks, which can vary widely across services and in elite units such as special forces.

How to combine mass production and variety has long plagued defense planners. The F-35 was envisioned 30 years ago as a single low-cost plane with different options for the Air Force, Navy and Marines. But in traditional fashion, costs and complexity ballooned as delays mounted.

“The Defense Department has a poor track record in rapid development and production,” says Pettyjohn. “They’ve shot for the moon on everything.”
 
Wasn't orange man bad because he wanted NATO members to spend 2% of their GDP?

“The defense-industrial base that served us after World War II and helped us prevail in the Cold War isn’t the one that is going to help us prevail against China,” says Joseph Votel, a retired four-star Army general who led Special Operations Command and now heads Business Executives for National Security, a nonprofit started in 1982 to bring private-sector know-how to the Pentagon.

First, say advocates of a new approach, the Pentagon should acknowledge it no longer owns the cutting edge of technology—even though it once launched transformative innovations, such as the internet and GPS.
Because in order to win a war neither an industrial base or advanced technology are helpful.


starting with a new postindustrial mind-set.
What the fuck does this even mean? Farm weapons production out to china? Fight wars via twitter posts about how it's just like we're fighting thanos?
 
Let's set aside the fact that the Defense industry is grifting HARD and pretend that the US actually is trying to set up a war-time economy.

War funding, by its very nature, is inflationary spending. Every business needs a lot of start-up capital to build heavy industry factories to produce arms, ammunition, and vehicles. Every soldier needs to be paid enough to not be disgruntled. Where does this money come from? From war bonds, i.e. the government borrowing money. The government had already used its money printer to bail out COVID citizens, so to use the money printer again risks hyper-inflation and thus a cratering of the economy. No economy, no logistics.

Now, the US put itself at a disadvantage by having strict environmental laws that hamper heavy industry. Thus, the US's heavy industry at large, especially refineries, is artificially limited. Unless the US ignores environmental laws, which is legitimately a tricky business because worker safety is also tied into environmental regulations. Also, the US workforce needs to be repurposed from a service economy where everyone can study whatever to a manufacturing economy where the graduates are some kind of STEM. Now, currently, most STEM students are transfer students overseas, so to train domestic students requires a revamping of the US educational system from propaganda to learning actual technical skills.

Is it possible to make these kinds of changes? Under an actual God Emperor exerting full authority to enact military policies. In a Democracy or a Republic (which is semantics at this point), no. There are just too many lobbies and politicians to organize reforms. Even the ancient Romans understood that the Republic was flawed and instituted the concept of the Dictator, and actually expected that Dictator to resign afterwards. Regardless of the honor system, they acknowledged the possibility--and then the reality--that a Republic could not fulfill the needs of the State in emergencies. Otherwise, they would not have had the concept at all.
 
Hm yes, in a flagging economy we should definitely be funneling money we don't have into weapons manufacturers who produce nothing that helps the average person.
 
“The defense-industrial base that served us after World War II and helped us prevail in the Cold War isn’t the one that is going to help us prevail against China,” says Joseph Votel, a retired four-star Army general who led Special Operations Command and now heads Business Executives for National Security, a nonprofit started in 1982 to bring private-sector know-how to the Pentagon.
First, say advocates of a new approach, the Pentagon should acknowledge it no longer owns the cutting edge of technology—even though it once launched transformative innovations, such as the internet and GPS.
Asking the loader of Snake Eating CIA Cum Guzzling Appreciation Society about how to win wars is like asking Elmer Fudd how to catch rabbits.

This is the DUMBEST shit I've ever seen.

The whole thing is all "We should turn the DoD into a money making corporation!"
 
If you wanted to make defense acquisitions cheaper, you could cut out the pork and middle-men, but then whats the point of a military-industrial complex?
 
I don't think Russia or China would last very long in a war with the US. Russia can't even take Ukraine. Against an actual capable fighting force they wouldn't last long. The Russian fail war in Ukraine has just proven to the world that the Russian military is garbage tier. The only thing Russia had going for it was its reputation and nuclear weapons. The reputation of having the second biggest army in the world. That's biggest but not the best. That's completely gone. The Russian military has been gutted by corruption and the poor economy. They lied and said they didn't have any T-55's and T-62's left and they started pulling these old obsolete tanks from the early cold war out of storage and sending them to Ukraine. The war has been nothing but a huge embarrassment for Russia and exposed them as being weak. Of course, there were people that knew this the whole time because of their performance in Chechnya. But the media kept pushing the Russian threat fear mongering.

China is basically a copy of Russia. Most everything they have is a cheap copy of something Russia sold them a few of and they started making cheaper versions. The Chinese military is just as bad as the Russians. They had to lower their standards twice since the mid to late 2010's and not because of women but because of the men. The Chinese have your typical commie parade army. Meaning they aren't really good for much else. Their navy is still considered a brown water navy. They were supposed to have caught up with the US by now but so far, they have not. Their navy is still garbage tier. Then you have the other issues like their economy and the demographic issues. Their economy is even worse off than the US economy. It will probably collapse in the next decade or so. Speaking of collapse, they have terrible demographics. The original data on the Chinese population didn't quite show how bad it is. They went from having population decline to full blown population collapse. Their population is collapsing. It's even worse than the Western population decline. Combine this with an economy that probably won't make it past a decade China isn't going to be a threat to US if ever.

If anything, I think the US should scale back its military spending. There are no real threats left. China can be dealt with without using military force. Just stop doing business with them and they will collapse in 6 months. You won't even have to wait a decade.

I don't think the US is running out of weapons and ammo though. The US has been building up stockpiles for decades There is no way we are running out of anything. The Russians are dragging old T-62's and T-55's out of storage and those tanks are older than anyone fighting Ukraine. But the T-72's and T-80's would be as well. If the Russians have old tanks sitting around I am sure the US has some old ammo and everything else sitting around as well. Some of M2 Bradley's the Ukrainians were given served in Desert Storm.
 
What the fuck does this even mean? Farm weapons production out to china? Fight wars via twitter posts about how it's just like we're fighting thanos?

I was wondering the same thing. A "post-industrial" war doesn't even make sense in the current temporal context. War is still very much fought, and likely for a very long time, will be fought with actual physical machines, devices, and weapons. The only way to make such things at scale is with industry. If someone has found a way to make such things at scale without industry I'm all ears.
 
What the fuck does this even mean? Farm weapons production out to china? Fight wars via twitter posts about how it's just like we're fighting thanos?
It means if they wish hard enough it will all just appear.

Maybe they can bribe China. Or totally just wave some money around and Boeing will just show up, install an update, and the F-35 will magically become the bestest figthter jet on Erf!

It means they don't want industry, because that means the peons will have jobs.

They don't want DARPA and DOD designing stuff, they want it all public domain or developed and owned by private corps.
 
Defensewerx, a nonprofit organization closely tied to the Pentagon, links the defense establishment with small businesses and academia, working to bring innovation and a disrupter mentality to arms development and contracting.
Amazing what sort of stuff can be set up as a non-profit.
The Pentagon could struggle to fund all that, given government budgeting rules, Cole acknowledged. Instead, it could take a more private-sector approach to financing by turning to debt markets, raising around $50 billion and completing the work in about four years.
Imagine if someone has a car they can't really afford. That person then decides to take out a line of credit to fix up their garage, because then they can save some money on oil changes. Its going to be really fun to see how the military industrial complex gorges itself once the funding is coming from the markets.
 
The only way to make such things at scale is with industry. If someone has found a way to make such things at scale without industry I'm all ears.
I am just waiting for them to try to 3D print tanks, fighters, artillery and ammunition.

Jokes aside, the shortcomings of western military production were all known. In 1941/1942 the US could have theortically lost their whole Navy and bounced back by 1944. Nowadays if China manages to take out large parts of the US Navy in a surprise attack, there might be a new navy in 30 years.
 
if there's any one thing that makes me beyond glad that putin invaded its that all those "Those jobs aren't coming back CHUD learn to code!" faggots are getting a swift punch in the nose over it. We can all burn together.
 
I don't think the US is running out of weapons and ammo though. The US has been building up stockpiles for decades There is no way we are running out of anything.
I suggest you actually read DoD documents, the US is bottomed out, this is why we're sending cluster munitions right now and calling it vague terms like "a bridge" because we have no capability to produce artillery shells to meet demand.
 
I suggest you actually read DoD documents, the US is bottomed out, this is why we're sending cluster munitions right now and calling it vague terms like "a bridge" because we have no capability to produce artillery shells to meet demand.
You're dead wrong.

They've been draining the stockpiles since 1992.

Source: Ordnance Command
What wars were we involved in that caused the US to use up all of its late cold war stockpiles and everything that was stocked up in the 90's? Both Iraq and Afghanistan were low intensity conflicts. They were nowhere near the intensity of a conventional war.

The Ukrainians asked for the cluster munitions.

No, I'm not wrong. Once again, I am right. I like being right.
 
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What wars were we involved in that caused the US to use up all of its late cold war stockpiles and everything that was stocked up in the 90's?
The stocks weren't rebuilt in the 1990's.

Much of the ammunition brought out of the bunkers in Western Europe was destroyed due to lack of space for storage or just age.

Artillery such as H104's, 155mm, 8", and 105mm were used HEAVILY in Desert Storm and never really replaced through the 1990's due to the shutdown of many ammunition lines.

Stingers were already having components go bad, but the production line replacement was extremely slow. More Stingers were going bad and needed the 55B's to replace components.

During the 1990's Ordnance Corps complained repeatedly about out of date stocks not being replaced. (Several times in the 1990's and early 2000's there were deaths and injuries due to ammunition that should have been emergency CC:H'd out being used for training instead and killing people)

Manufacturing lines, including some major ones, were shut down or severely reduced under Clinton.

Both Iraq and Afghanistan were low intensity conflicts. They were nowhere near the intensity of a conventional war.
And bunkers STILL weren't reloaded by the time 9-11 happened.

Artillery, specifically 8" rounds, were still being used in Afghanistan, including FASCAM rounds that were often used to block Taliban retreats by scattering them behind it. The H104 rounds were often used to deny trails. Artillery support was used extensively during the entire 20 years. Additionally, air support was consuming ammunitions, from 30mm APDSDU to 2.75" rockets, which were being consumed but not replaced as quickly.

The whole time, the replacement lagged behind consumption or wasn't used at all. 9mm and 5.56mm and 7.62mm all lagged behind usage, to the point where it was difficult for even Law Enforcement to get ahold of the 5.56mm and the 9mm round.

Ordnance Corps began issuing serious warnings regarding 155mm and 8" rounds starting in 2010, suggesting the three (at the time) manufacturing locations be allowed to open up additional lines. Rather than allow that, one was closed, leaving only Lake City and Iowa Ammunition Plant, both running at less than full capacity.
No, I'm not wrong. Once again, I am right. I like being right.
No, you're ignorant of the realities.

Here, just have the modern rifle:

Additionally, it will be 5+ years before any number is produced domestically.

And more additionally, the past two decades "minimum stockpile" has been revised downward. While some people talk about "significant stores" of 5.56mm and 7.62mm, the reality is that the minimum amount was downsized. Right now, units are being brushed off from the range because of ammunition shortages. For example, Remington and Winchester both got contracts to produce 10 million 9mm rounds over the next 10 years. This is to replace a nearly 20 million shortage in stockpile sizes since 2006, when the Bush Administration declined to have Remington and Winchester open additional manufacturing lines, which Obama also refused.

The War on Terror was weird, as the American industry to support the war wasn't fired up, but instead old Cold War stocks (depleted due to Desert Storm, Bosnia, and other conflicts as well as age and degradation) were burned through without being replaced.

But then, you know, you think you're right even though you have no idea why the idea to use pre-1988 5.56mm ammunition in 2010 was the dumbest fucking thing they could have done.
 
The stocks weren't rebuilt in the 1990's.

Much of the ammunition brought out of the bunkers in Western Europe was destroyed due to lack of space for storage or just age.

Artillery such as H104's, 155mm, 8", and 105mm were used HEAVILY in Desert Storm and never really replaced through the 1990's due to the shutdown of many ammunition lines.

Stingers were already having components go bad, but the production line replacement was extremely slow. More Stingers were going bad and needed the 55B's to replace components.

During the 1990's Ordnance Corps complained repeatedly about out of date stocks not being replaced. (Several times in the 1990's and early 2000's there were deaths and injuries due to ammunition that should have been emergency CC:H'd out being used for training instead and killing people)

Manufacturing lines, including some major ones, were shut down or severely reduced under Clinton.

And bunkers STILL weren't reloaded by the time 9-11 happened.

Artillery, specifically 8" rounds, were still being used in Afghanistan, including FASCAM rounds that were often used to block Taliban retreats by scattering them behind it. The H104 rounds were often used to deny trails. Artillery support was used extensively during the entire 20 years. Additionally, air support was consuming ammunitions, from 30mm APDSDU to 2.75" rockets, which were being consumed but not replaced as quickly.

The whole time, the replacement lagged behind consumption or wasn't used at all. 9mm and 5.56mm and 7.62mm all lagged behind usage, to the point where it was difficult for even Law Enforcement to get ahold of the 5.56mm and the 9mm round.

Ordnance Corps began issuing serious warnings regarding 155mm and 8" rounds starting in 2010, suggesting the three (at the time) manufacturing locations be allowed to open up additional lines. Rather than allow that, one was closed, leaving only Lake City and Iowa Ammunition Plant, both running at less than full capacity.
No, you're ignorant of the realities.

Here, just have the modern rifle:
https://www.npr.org/2023/04/07/1168725028/manufacturing-price-gauging-new-u-s-military-arms
Additionally, it will be 5+ years before any number is produced domestically.

And more additionally, the past two decades "minimum stockpile" has been revised downward. While some people talk about "significant stores" of 5.56mm and 7.62mm, the reality is that the minimum amount was downsized. Right now, units are being brushed off from the range because of ammunition shortages. For example, Remington and Winchester both got contracts to produce 10 million 9mm rounds over the next 10 years. This is to replace a nearly 20 million shortage in stockpile sizes since 2006, when the Bush Administration declined to have Remington and Winchester open additional manufacturing lines, which Obama also refused.

The War on Terror was weird, as the American industry to support the war wasn't fired up, but instead old Cold War stocks (depleted due to Desert Storm, Bosnia, and other conflicts as well as age and degradation) were burned through without being replaced.

But then, you know, you think you're right even though you have no idea why the idea to use pre-1988 5.56mm ammunition in 2010 was the dumbest fucking thing they could have done.
I highly doubt ODS a war that lasted a few weeks used up even a good portion of the US stockpiles. Especially since the US wasn't the only country involved in that war. Again the war in Afghanistan and the 2004 invasion of Iraq were also pretty low intensity conflicts. Even if the US was in Afghanistan for a little over 20 years and in Iraq for less time than that they still weren't modern conventional wars. What war did the US fight that no one else knows about that caused it to use up all of it's late cold war stockpiles and everything that was stockpiled in the 90's?

The Ukrainians requested the cluster bombs. They were not sent to Ukraine because the US is running out of stuff to give them. This has all been talked about before. The US was running out of weapons and ammo to give Ukraine last year. But here we are and the US still has enough weapons and ammo to keep Ukraine stocked up. Ukraine lost 17 or 18 Bradleys in the early stages of their counteroffensive and the US supplied them with 15 more to replace what was lost or damaged.

This whole "ZOMG guyz we are running out of stuff cuz of Ukraine" isn't true. It wasn't true last year and it's not true now.
 
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