Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Jetpack Himmler]

The craziest thing is that I still meet people who think that the stuff after Endgame was still "good, but not great" and that the MCU is only getting better and better.

The whole turn your customers into religious followers thing really does work for a certain segment of the population.

The MCU has definitely bred a segment of consumers into full blown cultists who believe Marvel can do no wrong. I pointed out on X that White Tiger is an obscure character that doesn't need a shitty Disney+ show and cue the "Well, Iron Man was a B-List character that became big" and "No one knew who the Guardians were." The difference here is that Iron Man had considerable name recognition among the dedicated fans and Guardians Vol. 1 came out in 2014 when the Marvel brand still stood for quality. Eternals and Shang-Chi were just was obscure, if not moreso, than Guardians of the Galaxy and their films where either underwhelming or an outright flop. Then there are the Disney+ shows, which had emphasized quantity over quality and became required viewing to watch the films. Plus, the viewing on many of these shows is abysmal. Ms. Marvel, a character that Marvel spent a decade forcing on audience, was the least views on Disney+ and was a ratings disaster on ABC. Then The Marvels comes along to flop harder than even The Flash...

...yet the Marvel stans act like the MCU is still in its 2019 heyday. 2023 was certainly an inflect point for the franchise. Every MCU film aside for Guardians Vol. 3 bombed in theatres, Secret Invasion was an ungodly mess, Captain America: Brave New World did so poorly at test screenings that it needs extensive reshoots, and the firing of Jonathan Majors basically forced them to change their plans. It's clear to anyone with at least two neurons that Marvel has no direction and no bankable actors or characters to carry the franchise.

 

[Nick Obre]

Eternals and Shang-Chi were just was obscure, if not moreso, than Guardians of the Galaxy

People always brought up Guardians to defend the viability of Eternals back before the movie came out, and I'd always say, Guardians was obscure to normies, but they were extremely popular with nerds. The iteration they went for had come out of the most acclaimed line of crossover events Marvel has done in decades (5 solid years of great crossover events and ongoings, starting with Annihilation in 2005). They had tons of fans, had iconic costumes, and were popular enough to get Rocket and Groot (and Nova) featured in MVC3, years before the movie.

Eternals, on the other hand, was a franchise so obscure, so lacking in hype, that Neil Gaiman, often called the best comic book writer ever, could not successfully revive them.

As for Shang-Chi, knowing that they would never go for the real roots of the character, being the son of fucking Fu Manchu, it was always just gonna be a mid martial arts movie with too many special effects and too few real stunts, with an asian OC and a story completely unrelated to anything from the comics.
And it was.

It's clear to anyone with at least two neurons that Marvel has no direction and no bankable actors or characters to carry the franchise.

What I think now is, everyone talks about superhero fatigue and slowing down and all that. But I think that would be sustainable if everything from the last few years hadn't been disappointment after disappointment.
This year is just Deadpool 3, right? And some shows, surely. Nevermind the Sony shit.

So what's the expectation, that if people wait a couple more years, then the movies will be good again? Not like all the shit we've been putting out.
No, I think they need more stuff soon, but it has to be good, really good. And they've proven they can't do it anymore. Even if DP3 is fantastic, best movie you've ever seen, it won't be enough.

It's fucked I think. Iron's gone cold.

 

[Not A Bunny]

People always brought up Guardians to defend the viability of Eternals back before the movie came out, and I'd always say, Guardians was obscure to normies, but they were extremely popular with nerds. The iteration they went for had come out of the most acclaimed line of crossover events Marvel has done in decades (5 solid years of great crossover events and ongoings, starting with Annihilation in 2005). They had tons of fans, had iconic costumes, and were popular enough to get Rocket and Groot (and Nova) featured in MVC3, years before the movie.

Eternals, on the other hand, was a franchise so obscure, so lacking in hype, that Neil Gaiman, often called the best comic book writer ever, could not successfully revive them.

As for Shang-Chi, knowing that they would never go for the real roots of the character, being the son of fucking Fu Manchu, it was always just gonna be a mid martial arts movie with too many special effects and too few real stunts, with an asian OC and a story completely unrelated to anything from the comics.
And it was.

By the time they got to Eternals and Shang-Chi, there was so little that Marvel seemed to want to do with them.

You can bag on any previous characters, but before phase 4, there seemed to be genuine effort put into giving each character a story that felt lively if not orginal, with cool and distinct visuals.

People complain about Captain Marvel for a lot of reasons, but not for the one I have the biggest problem with: the aesthetic was Iron Man + GOTG, except...a GIRL. And, you know, less interesting.

It's no wonder that audiences weren't clamoring for more Captain Marvel after Endgame. She wasn't offering anything particularly new or interesting.
The Eternals was always going to be, if not boring, then baffling, because there's nothing about it that adds to the MCU, and you're kind of left wondering why anyone thought it was a good addition.

And Shang-Chi might have worked if they put as much effort into the fight choreography as John Wick (it wouldn't have saved the story or casting of the leads, Simu Liu has zero charisma and the less said about Awkwafina, the better, but at least it would have been fun to watch.)

Basically, there was a clear point at which Marvel stopped caring. And they just kept right on not caring.

 

[Your Starter for 10]

Guardians' success had virtually nothing to do with the comics, and everything to do with Chris Pratt, Bradley Cooper and Dave Bautista in combination with every Marvel movie up to that point being ok at worst (even the bad ones like Thor 2 were still at least SEEN). Also had a fun looking and novel trailer. Eternals had 15 years past her prime Angelina Jolie and...Kumail Roidijani? And the trailer looked like a slog. And it had some of the initial (for Marvel) "if you don't like it you are racist and sexist" harpies screeching.

They didn't attempt to make a fun superhero movie, they attempted to make a shrieking polemic. And they "succeeded," and laid the blueprint for Marvel from there until it ends.

 

[Nick Obre]

People complain about Captain Marvel for a lot of reasons, but not for the one I have the biggest problem with: the aesthetic was Iron Man + GOTG, except...a GIRL. And, you know, less interesting.

CM pissed me off so much for so many reasons. They simultaneously followed their formula really hard but also missed all the stuff that made the formula work in all the other movies.
The most typically brought up thing is that the hero is arrogant or callous but learns a lesson about their flaws: Tony learns accountability, Thor learns humility, Strange learns it's not all about him, Quill and the Guardians learn to trust and care for others and the world.
Carol... learns that she's being held down by others and she's just impossibly powerful and cool she just doesn't know it.

Another is that they used music to be very significant for characters: Tony is almost synonymous with ACDC, Quill's relationship with music is his relationship with his mom, the Guardians learn to love music as they learn to open up to others and love themselves, Strange has encyclopedic knowledge of music because he has to be right all the time, etc.
They make a whole lot of noise about Carol singing karaoke with Maria, and have her wearing band shirts and so on... but music is never in any way important to her. The Supreme Intelligence is more interested in that one Nirvana song than she is.

And so on, I don't wanna keep talking about that stupid fucking movie.

Guardians' success had virtually nothing to do with the comics

I'm not saying that the popularity of the comics was a factor in Guardians' success or Eternals' failure, but rather that the Guardians are a cool concept that's comparatively easy to do right: space rogues with distinct origins and personalities coming together and for a noble goal. It worked in the comics and it worked in the movie.

Eternals is much harder concept to pull off, it's sterile and off-putting. It only really worked in Kirby's weird high-concept comics. It's like the Inhumans, they're better as supporting characters, but as protagonists? Very hard to sell.
And they chose a really ass-backwards way to do it, too. Oscar bait diversity fest by a director with no experience in the genre.

Exactly what you said:

They didn't attempt to make a fun superhero movie, they attempted to make a shrieking polemic.

 

[Leaf Wage Slave Jr]

White Tiger is an obscure character that doesn't need a shitty Disney+ show

...So, how clean do we think the bottom of that barrel is going to be once Disney finally decides to cut their losses on the MCU, because we are REALLY scraping the bottom of that barrel if a character like White Fucking Tiger is getting a series.

Eternals, on the other hand, was a franchise so obscure, so lacking in hype, that Neil Gaiman, often called the best comic book writer ever, could not successfully revive them.

Eternals was fucked from the word go, but its one I'd unironically think would've worked better as a Disney+ series, if only so they could actually flesh out who any of these fucksticks are and why we should give half a shit about them. With how obscure they were they were basically blank slates - no one would give a shit if Disney did stupid shit with them, theres no brand to damage with the fucking Eternals - just swap it and, idk, Falcon and Winter Soldier in which was a movie and which was a series...

Guardians' success had virtually nothing to do with the comics, and everything to do with Chris Pratt, Bradley Cooper and Dave Bautista in combination with every Marvel movie up to that point being ok at worst (even the bad ones like Thor 2 were still at least SEEN). Also had a fun looking and novel trailer. Eternals had 15 years past her prime Angelina Jolie and...Kumail Roidijani? And the trailer looked like a slog. And it had some of the initial (for Marvel) "if you don't like it you are racist and sexist" harpies screeching.

One of the bigger problems the MCU might be facing is that they've kinda ran through all the bankable stars in Hollywood, and there's no one left with the charisma to elevate the D-List characters they're choosing to adapt. And well, look at what happened with He wuz Kang when they tried to make a new star...

I've said it for years, I'll keep saying it - they should've ended the MCU at Endgame, and just trotted the thing out as a box set whenever it looked like they were going to have a lean year.

 

[Polyboros2]

It's clear to anyone with at least two neurons that Marvel has no direction and no bankable actors or characters to carry the franchise.

It's very clear that Disney had a very overwhelming direction. It was too destroy their bankable actors and replace them. I'm fairly certain the goal of Avengers 5 was no White Men. Antman 3 was clearly designed to end with Antman and the Wasp retired to the Quantum Realm and this Antifa Daughter replacing him.


I know people fucking hate him, but GotG were good because James Gunn is very talented. I actually love his Suicide Squad movie, and while I'm apprehensive about how fucking cluttered his Superman movie is, it's the only capeshit I'm really looking forward too (I liked the trailer, but I'm still don't trust Disneypool).

 

[Not A Bunny]

"if you don't like it you are racist and sexist" harpies screeching.

One of my favorite things to come out of The Eternals was some actor in it crowing about how "it's gonna save lives" for all the diversity in it.

Yeah, find me a life this movie saved. I fucking dare you.

They make a whole lot of noise about Carol singing karaoke with Maria, and have her wearing band shirts and so on.

I find that off-putting in a different way. I have a feeling that Brie Larson had it in her contract that in her own movies, she had to have at least one scene where she was singing, so that if she ever wanted to take on a role that needed singing, she had something for her sizzle reel. She's not a particularly good singer, but whatever, apparently.

There's also that weird shit in The Marvels about the planet where people only sing. The only thing I could think when I saw that was: "Christ, they really are pandering to the girl market, aren't they?"

I know people fucking hate him, but GotG were good because James Gunn is very talented.

I don't hate James Gunn, but he's getting on my nerves the way Joss Whedon got on my nerves back in the day. And yes, I was an early hater back in the Buffy days, where everything was too precious by half. (Anyone wanna get me sperging on "Dollhouse", because I have no fucking clue how people weren't tagging Whedon as a creep from that show.)

When you have a director/writer that has a signature "quirky" style, that quirk quickly becomes a slog to deal with. Mostly because when characters are quirky, they talk like what the filmmaker envisions himself doing if he could project his brain into his teenage self and finally be "cool". We get it, everyone's a fucking teenager who says cool, snarky, meme-able things that everyone will be repeating at school tomorrow.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

There's also that weird shit in The Marvels about the planet where people only sing. The only thing I could think when I saw that was: "Christ, they really are pandering to the girl market, aren't they?"

And in the most half-assed way too. Commit to a full musical with actual banger songs or don't do it at all.

I don't hate James Gunn, but he's getting on my nerves the way Joss Whedon got on my nerves back in the day. And yes, I was an early hater back in the Buffy days, where everything was too precious by half. (Anyone wanna get me sperging on "Dollhouse", because I have no fucking clue how people weren't tagging Whedon as a creep from that show.)

When you have a director/writer that has a signature "quirky" style, that quirk quickly becomes a slog to deal with. Mostly because when characters are quirky, they talk like what the filmmaker envisions himself doing if he could project his brain into his teenage self and finally be "cool". We get it, everyone's a fucking teenager who says cool, snarky, meme-able things that everyone will be repeating at school tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm getting sick of Gunn too as he's a much worse version of Whedonisms. I simply can't take GotG 2 seriously because everyone's got to be cracking jokes all the time. I do not have high hopes for his Superman movie because... well... Superman is a sincere character and Gen Xers only perceive sincerity with irony and moral relativism. Which is why Justice League stories these days make them the villains in one form or another.

 

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

Shut the fuck up, retard.

There are millions of wannabe actors who would give their left nut to appear in an MCU film. Case in point: Kumail Nanjiani, who destroyed his body with steroids for the chance to play a minor side character in The Eternals. Superhero films are the only kind of films bringing in audiences anymore. No aspiring actor would give up the exposure and prestige that comes from appearing in one because they might get overshadowed by their costar.

LOL CALM DOWN

 

[marvlouslie]

Shut the fuck up, retard.

There are millions of wannabe actors who would give their left nut to appear in an MCU film. Case in point: Kumail Nanjiani, who destroyed his body with steroids for the chance to play a minor side character in The Eternals. Superhero films are the only kind of films bringing in audiences anymore. No aspiring actor would give up the exposure and prestige that comes from appearing in one because they might get overshadowed by their costar.

Are you fucking retarded? The MCU is a toxic cesspit right now. It's losing money, it's losing support. Anyone up and coming can see the writing on the wall to the MCU and just not want to bother.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

There's also that weird shit in The Marvels about the planet where people only sing. The only thing I could think when I saw that was: "Christ, they really are pandering to the girl market, aren't they?"

Hey now, it's possible to do a film with a lot of singing and not pander exclusively to the female market.



It's also possible to make that film for $69 million have it make $170 million. For the current Disney film makers that's called a profit, this is an important word.

Fewer white people, better music, superior return on investment. Maybe Disney should have ditched the older cast, handed Kamala over to these directors and gone all in.

 

[Not A Bunny]

Hey now, it's possible to do a film with a lot of singing and not pander exclusively to the female market.

View attachment 5765824

It's also possible to make that film for $69 million have it make $170 million. For the current Disney film makers that's called a profit, this is an important word.

Fewer white people, better music, superior return on investment. Maybe Disney should have ditched the older cast, handed Kamala over to these directors and gone all in.

I love that movie. A lot of opportunities were lost sending it to Netflix with limited theater screenings and no press.

But yeah, the difference is, RRR put heart into what it was doing (and fuck me, SS Rajamouli is an honest to God movie nerd). It also understood its audience: the musical scenes HAD to be as good as the action scenes; that's the nature of Indian cinema.

I could sperg about that movie for hours...

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

But yeah, the difference is, RRR put heart into what it was doing

Aye, I think it's really funny that in the Marvels characters are doing stuff like reigniting suns but they can't even spark an ember of interest. Whereas RRR practically redoes scenes from West Side story and people who stumble across them online are immediately fired up to see the film.

 

[Nick Obre]

I can't into Bollywood. I just can't.

It's so shit.

It's the cinematic equivalent of what's happening inside the mind of a balding manlet who randomly breaks into doing push ups or something to try to impress the very uncomfortable women around him; he thinks he's so cool and outrageous but from the outside it's all just embarrassing.

 

[Not A Bunny]

Aye, I think it's really funny that in the Marvels characters are doing stuff like reigniting suns but they can't even spark an ember of interest. Whereas RRR practically redoes scenes from West Side story and people who stumble across them online are immediately fired up to see the film.

Thing is, Marvel doesn't care about details. Meanwhile, RRR has an incredible villain introduction for one of the characters

Spoiler: except that...

he turns out to be a hero

that works because someone cared about the details.

I'm telling you, Rajamouli just "gets" movies in a way that we rarely see in the US anymore.

Spoiler: He plays dirty, too...

Like, he totally made the "pretty boy" the "villain" because we know we'd be even more willing to forgive him for being that good looking. God damn it.

 

[marvlouslie]

At this point everything released after "Endgame" has either been met with a big fat, "MEH", or "WHAT THE FUCK IS EVEN THAT?!"

Movies that are too fucking stupid bank on, "LOOK, WE HAVE WOMEN IN IT!", never mind the fact that the plots on most of these Post-Endgame travesties make little to no sense due to the big brained higher ups in Disney who discriminately hire spear chuckers and pussy who've never before worked as a director for a high school play, let alone a multibillion dollar production in which thousands of jobs are on the line. *BREATHE*.

Honestly, anyone who keeps buying tickets for these things should never be taken seriously by anyone. I know it's a meme, but "DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST BUY PRODUCTS, AND THEN GET EXCITED FOR NEXT PRODUCTS" is real. These people really do exist, and I'm tired. I'm so very, very, fucking tired, bros.

 

[Michael Wade]

They've lost the ability to give heroes believable challenges and problems. It's not just that the villains suck, it's that the heroes never struggle or doubt themselves. Never has that been more apparent when I sat down to rewatch animated Batman. Hero's and villains no longer have psychological complexity. They won't and can't do it.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

They've lost the ability to give heroes believable challenges and problems.

this is a big thing, if EVERY fucking time they're fighting the end of the entire universe then it's boring
you need to have small scale stories so the big ones matter, then you use the small scale ones to get character depth and do more than "Beam Man! Shoot your beam! Punch Man! Go punch things!" big end fight with a hundred thousand CG extras

 

[Doctor of Autism]

This has been something on my mind, but god damn Endgame gets worse for me when the Reverse Snap basically does more harm than the first snap did. Since even with Hulk's "oh if people were snapped on the road, they'd just be snapped to safety" spiel, there are still a shit load of people that would die from being brought back. The Reverse Snap does more damage to the world in the long term by making overpopulation worse. All because Iron Man wanted to keep his child (which like yeah a good father would want to do that, but something like reversing half the world dying should've probably been seen in a more utilitarian lens).

This wouldn't be so much of a problem for me, if the movies/shows after Endgame didn't try to address the effects of the Reverse Snap since thinking about it makes it worse.

Cause imagine if 4 billion dead people were just brought back perfectly healthy in modern society.