Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

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isalaide said:
Thanks, that's very helpful. Follow up question if you don't mind: how do you get from 'no male bonding' to 'if gf, gf will supply lack'? The kind of emotional support and (I guess?) emotional validation a guy would get from his male crew must surely be qualitatively different from whatever he would get in a sexual/romantic relationship. Or does a lonely dude/incel just want some kind of emotional input, and doesn't care where it comes from or what form it takes?
Is the focus on having a girlfriend/sex partner just because it seems logistically easier to obtain one person for emotional support rather than find a whole crew of family and friends?
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That level of emotional intimacy is reserved for a partner or maybe a mother.

Do women not have the same thing? Or is it all the same to you?
 
Major said:
That level of emotional intimacy is reserved for a partner or maybe a mother.

Do women not have the same thing? Or is it all the same to you?
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Eh, most women would say that the level of emotional intimacy they have with close friends and family, and the amount of emotional support they get from them, is much much higher than with their partner.
Most women report in studies they don't get much emotional support or satisfaction from their male partner. I would say that pretty much every woman would admit that they have confided repeatedly in a close friend/family member things that they would never tell their partner.
I think, and I really don't think this is an outlier opinion, that your standard hetero relationship feels very emotionally intimate to the guy, and pretty emotionally distant, even emotionally unsatisfying, to the girl. Probably just because we are used to forming close emotional bonds that don't involve sex. I don't think sex increases the emotional value of a relationship to a woman. We don't feel closer to someone because they shoved a dick in us. Most women would say the closest person to them is a child, a mother, or a sister. Someone we share with, and who shares with us.
 
isalaide said:
Eh, most women would say that the level of emotional intimacy they have with close friends and family, and the amount of emotional support they get from them, is much much higher than with their partner.
Most women report in studies they don't get much emotional support or satisfaction from their male partner. I would say that pretty much every woman would admit that they have confided repeatedly in a close friend/family member things that they would never tell their partner.
I think, and I really don't think this is an outlier opinion, that your standard hetero relationship feels very emotionally intimate to the guy, and pretty emotionally distant, even emotionally unsatisfying, to the girl. Probably just because we are used to forming close emotional bonds that don't involve sex. I don't think sex increases the emotional value of a relationship to a woman. We don't feel closer to someone because they shoved a dick in us. Most women would say the closest person to them is a child, a mother, or a sister. Someone we share with, and who shares with us.
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Then why do women even enter into romantic relationships in the first place? Hell, why do men even enter romantic relationships in the first place? I get a woman putting her kids above her man, but why her mother or sister? They didn't make those kids. It just sounds like most people have misplaced priorities in relationships in general. I'm not saying your spouse/lover should be everything you need, but they should provide good moral, emotional, spiritual and just all round support to the point you turn to them for advice and just support.


I don't think that sounds partivularly unrealistic. It seems that most people have no idea what it takes to keep a relationship fresh and do thr necessary work to ensure that or maybe they don't know why they are in a relationship. I don't pretend to know, but it does explain why most relationships (romantic and otherwise) are so ephemeral nowadays. They seem to dissolve with the least amount of pressure or conflict or with someone's absence, even in the age of the Internet. It's kinda sad actually: meaningful relationships are rare and contrivrd ones are the norm.
 
@Geddy Lee's Fee and See (can't quote you, sorry)
I can only categorically speak for myself here, but I will.
I love my husband dearly. Very dearly. I believe, and so does he, that we have a strong marriage and a strong partnership. We've been together most of our lives. He is my rock, and he would say I am his.
But my relationship with him is qualitatively different from the one I have with, say, my mother in law (to whom I am extremely close).
To cut to the chase, I fuck him. I don't fuck anyone else. Our relationship has a dimension, a very important but also a very finely balanced dimension, that doesn't exist in those other relationships. And because it's very important for a functional marriage to keep that sexual relationship alive and functional, there are things I just don't fucking want him to know or to talk to him about. There are things you do not share with someone who you hope and expect to experience sexual desire for you.
Like, I think after five kids, I'd be happier if I had some work done on my tummy. Flatten out the folds, that sort of thing. I don't like how it looks and it affects my confidence. There is no fucking way I am going to discuss that with him. I am not going to tell him I feel unattractive, because there is no way that conversation ends well. Either he agrees with me, which I will put a hard face on but in reality will devastate my confidence and make me inwardly spiral, or he doesn't agree with me and tries to talk me out of my own opinion about myself, which will make me defensive and also secretly I won't believe him. The poor fucker can't say anything about that subject that would be 'right', so out of fairness to him I don't say anything.
We had to go to therapy (more accurately, he had to come to therapy with me) about something childhood-related. He was upset I had not disclosed this issue. I remain fundamentally enraged that due to circumstances, he had to find out, because that is not something I ever wanted my sexual partner to know about me. I love him and trust him completely. I still hate more than I can describe that that might be in his head when we are sexually intimate. I will never stop being afraid that that's what he's thinking.
There are just things that should not be shared in a sexual relationship, because they will rot it from the inside out. I know a great part of what attracts him to me is my confidence, because he's always been pretty shy. I can't afford to compromise that by telling him every fucking vulnerability and weakness and fear I have.
He's my husband. He's not my priest. The marriage bed is not a confessional. There are things you share, and there are things better left unsaid.
For all those weaknesses and fears... that's what close friends and trusted family are for. I don't need my mother in law to fancy me. I very much need my husband to do so.
 
isalaide said:
*snip*
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That's completely understandable. I wouldn't call that being closer to someone else as compared to having different avenues of support. I don't think a man can really understand a woman's problems the way a close female friend could and vice versa for a man. There's room for different pillsrs of support in a relationship outside of it. Keeping it all in will undermine it in one way or the other.
 
isalaide said:
Most women report in studies they don't get much emotional support or satisfaction from their male partner. I would say that pretty much every woman would admit that they have confided repeatedly in a close friend/family member things that they would never tell their partner.
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repro.jpg
 
isalaide said:
But my relationship with him is qualitatively different from the one I have with, say, my mother in law
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The way I would say my relationship is different with my partner than with my mom/ brothers / dad is that I want to please/satisfy my partner.

I don't need to or I don't feel the need to do that with my family.

It's okay if your partner is not your deepest confident, it's even okay if no one is if you can manage it and self regulate.
 
Geddy Lee's Fee and See said:
That's completely understandable. I wouldn't call that being closer to someone else as compared to having different avenues of support. I don't think a man can really understand a woman's problems the way a close female friend could and vice versa for a man. There's room for different pillsrs of support in a relationship outside of it. Keeping it all in will undermine it in one way or the other.
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Yeah, I think that's important. I think if you only ever have each other for emotional support, the whole relationship will collapse under its own weight. Who do you turn to for perspective if you get into some real marital trouble, then? Reddit?

@JamusActimus See, I would describe my relationship with my kids as wanting to please them. Not at the expense of their welfare or long term goals for their welfare, but generally I would rather make them happy than not. If I have the choice between sit on my arse all day or take them out somewhere that would entertain them, I'll take them out. I will make dinners they like as opposed to ones they hate.

I want to make my husband happy in a different way, yeah nudge nudge wink wink but you know what I mean seriously, but I do consciously choose to behave towards those I love in a way that will make them happy.
 
That's a respectable trad view of the situation.
I've frequently heard stuff about how "your partner is supposed to be your best friend in the world!" and that always comes off a little weird and incestuous to me. Your partner is your partner, you're supposed to have them and also your bros. Don't be Ian and Anisa Jomhas.

That said there's still a specific role having a caring partner is supposed to fill as well: literally down to monogamous rodents singleness is associated with higher stress, illness, and addiction levels (think tiny alcoholic praire voles). Ironically it's more difficult to fill that role if you do treat your partner like they're supposed to be your best friend.

Related to incels though, you can look at guys like Chris Chan. He constantly wanted to be surrounded by nothing but women because they seem less intimidating, more nurturing, and also want to stick penis inside.
In many cases the type of behavior we're talking about is as much about someone's relationship with their own sex as it is about their relationship with the opposite sex, even though that element usually gets a lot less attention. Inadequate connection with other men creates a situation where women are their only emotional, physical, or social outlet, and their gateway to self esteem.

Although genuine Elliot Roger brand incels take it a step further by convincing themselves that sex, specifically, will be what fixes all those problems. That isn't a man thing, that's just an incel thing.
Lonely and mopey guys who lack companionship you can feel some sympathy for even if their priorities are a little misplaced, where as actual genuine sex-obsessed incels are just awful low IQ retards.
 
Ughubughughughughughghlug said:
You’re not an incel.
You’re full blown gay.
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Okay, confession time.

I was intimate with two people when I was a kid.

There was another boy who lived on my block that I was kinda friends with for a little bit. We made out a few times, because he wanted to.

The other one is a lot weirder. Me and my female cousin had a sexual relationship for a few years. When we got together we would make out, and do oral to each other. When I stayed over at her house, her dumbass parents had me sleep in her bed with her, which was dumb. We never orgasmed or anything. I didn't even know what that was.

That's all my weird, embarrassing sexual experience.
 
Gaear Grimsrud said:
Okay, confession time.

I was intimate with two people when I was a kid.

There was another boy who lived on my block that I was kinda friends with for a little bit. We made out a few times, because he wanted to.

The other one is a lot weirder. Me and my female cousin had a sexual relationship for a few years. When we got together we would make out, and do oral to each other. When I stayed over at her house, her dumbass parents had me sleep in her bed with her, which was dumb. We never orgasmed or anything. I didn't even know what that was.

That's all my weird, embarrassing sexual experience.
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Why would you post this here? lmao
 
Ultrapenguin said:
That's a respectable trad view of the situation.
I've frequently heard stuff about how "your partner is supposed to be your best friend in the world!" and that always comes off a little weird and incestuous to me. Your partner is your partner, you're supposed to have them and also your bros. Don't be Ian and Anisa Jomhas.

That said there's still a specific role having a caring partner is supposed to fill as well: literally down to monogamous rodents singleness is associated with higher stress, illness, and addiction levels (think tiny alcoholic praire voles). Ironically it's more difficult to fill that role if you do treat your partner like they're supposed to be your best friend.
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see that's interesting because my parents never really had any friends apart from family and my mum always said that my dad was her best friend. That's what I take as the ideal normal relationship between husband/wife. Maybe it's more complicated than that of course with the sex dimension, but most couples I do know basically just would be good friends if they were the same sex. So I always thought wife/girlfriend = best friend you have sex with.
 
Major said:
see that's interesting because my parents never really had any friends apart from family and my mum always said that my dad was her best friend. That's what I take as the ideal normal relationship between husband/wife. Maybe it's more complicated than that of course with the sex dimension, but most couples I do know basically just would be good friends if they were the same sex. So I always thought wife/girlfriend = best friend you have sex with.
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I kind of think the same. Not that I know a damn thing, but in the most successful relationships I've seen, they always describe their wife/husband as a best friend.
 
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Major said:
So I always thought wife/girlfriend = best friend you have sex with.
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If you go by "friend first, lover second", no couples would be made these days. You drag your balls through shattered glass to keep a woman entertained until she ghosts you after her fourth "haha yeah". Meanwhile online, you can talk to any dude about anything for at least 3 hours if need be.
 
Lords Greatsword said:
Brother, you went from coming off as some monk-like figure with no worries in life to straight up admitting to sexual activity with your cousin.
What in the fuck compelled you to confess this?
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IDK. I don't really care about confessing such things over the anonymity of the internet.

I didn't really mean to come off like some monk. I'm a bit of a coomer, and I''m frequently high.
 
Yeah, I won't disagree, my husband is definitely my best friend. But I do need those family members and a couple other close friends for having an outlet that's not just him.
Think of it like this: if for some reason we are both having a hard time, only ever being able to emotionally offload onto the other - who is already stressed and in their feelings - would be like a pressure cooker. Sometimes you need and want to go and moan to someone who doesn't have the same investment in the situation. You know, someone who'll make you a cup of tea and a chocolate digestive, and tell you 'aw that's a shame'.
My personal feeling is that the poor guy really, really doesn't need to know every single shitty thought I think, because shitty thoughts are all I think some days. See above: I have Feelings about my tummy pleats. This is both self obsessed and stupid, so I should really share those thoughts with the internet hate machine, and go have sex with him instead.
 
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