Debate Death Penalty

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26 years is a long time for anybody innocent or guilty.
Town Drunk said:
26 years, this guy had 26 years of free meals and a warm bed to sleep in. Meanwhile, the homeless sleep under bridges and scavenge dumpsters for the scraps we throw away. Show HIM mercy, a murderer in pursuit of ill gotten goods.

I am not pro death penalty because I seek revenge, or "justice" I am pro death penalty because some people are not worth the time/effort to make them fit to rejoin civilized society.
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Yes I am sure he enjoyed his 5 star stay at the Ritz Carlton. What makes you so sure he isn't fit to rejoin society?
 
Happy Fish said:
What makes you so sure he isn't fit to rejoin society?
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The multiple felonies on his record before the final homicide tells me theres no reforming him.

One is bad luck

Twice might be an anomaly.

Three times or more? Thats a pattern thar will not change.
 
FamicomGorby said:
Probably the whole being a cold blooded murderer thing, stabbing some random person 40+ times after breaking into that person's home.
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Are you the same person you were 26 years ago? Do you think being isolated from society and jammed in a small metal cell in the most depressing environment legally maintainable might change your point of view on your poor actions? Would it give you time to cool down and say to yourself at very least "Hey, maybe what I did was at very least not a good idea for the sake of self-preservation alone." Reminder, I am replying to a post saying it isn't about revenge or justice, which is naive at best. Prison is a punishment. Certainly some people are beyond rehabilitation. Maybe this guy is. The family seems to think he isn't. I can't say for sure if that means a damn because I don't know the family. I can say they are much closer to this than me and that he has served the term required before parole in a life sentence. In non death penalty states he would be good behavior from being set free. I think it is crazy that he isn't even given that chance for mercy's sake alone. 26 fucking years in prison. Longer than a life sentence and the attitude is still "well, no matter what we gotta kill 'em."

Edit: Disregard the stuff about the family. I hadn't read closely the part where they only wanted life without parole and nobody actually seems to think he is innocent. Though, assuming that they only don't want more bloodshed because activists must have gotten to them is also pretty fucking stupid. Not everyone is a bloodthirsty sack of shit, and none of you know this guy still is either.
 
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Pelican Bones said:
And you decided to just skip over this part and ask it as if it isn't already addressed? Interesting.
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I didn't skip it. Your statement only holds true if you haven't changed at all in 26 years. Not impossible. Some people in rural areas (or prisons) are like that. Just unlikely if you are here on the Internet since 26 years ago people were still renting videos from Blockbuster as the current hotness in entertainment. People tend to change a lot in 26 years.
 
oh no its pipkun said:
this relies too much on the keystone cops to do their job. Allegedly, the shitheads at the innocence project say none of the crime scene evidence matches the dead guy. The DNA on the murder weapon wasn't his and instead matches the prosecutor and attorney general or something because those two chucklefucks didn't wear gloves while handling the knife. unlike mumia abu-jamal, this case has a little more midconducty issues.

the DNA evidence not matching this retard is enough to avoid the death penalty
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They wouldn't be able to find his DNA evidence on the knife anyways because the prosecutors were able to prove Willams wore gloves during the crime. He was a serial armed burglar after all. That's why he bragged about getting away with it to a snitch with details about the murder the police never revealed.

and he also tried to escape from prison when they told him he was being charged for the murder because they found Gayle's stuff in his car.
 

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Happy Fish said:
I didn't skip it. Your statement only holds true if you haven't changed at all in 26 years. Not impossible. Some people in rural areas (or prisons) are like that. Just unlikely if you are here on the Internet since 26 years ago people were still renting videos from Blockbuster as the current hotness in entertainment. People tend to change a lot in 26 years.
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I'm not sure what you're advocating for.

You think 25 years is enough time in prison for even the most sadistic murderer to reform?

This dude killed at least 22 women by the time he was 30. His brain was broken. He could have done 50 years and still been too dangerous to let out. Swinging was a fine option for him.

 
Happy Fish said:
I didn't skip it. Your statement only holds true if you haven't changed at all in 26 years. Not impossible. Some people in rural areas (or prisons) are like that. Just unlikely if you are here on the Internet since 26 years ago people were still renting videos from Blockbuster as the current hotness in entertainment. People tend to change a lot in 26 years.
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If you kill someone?

And wait 26 years?

They're still dead.

You're still a murderer.

You still have to take the punishment a Jury of your peers said you deserved.

No "Yeah, but..."

"But" nothing.

Your victim spring back to life as a testament to your miraculous change of heart? No? Adios, my friend.
 
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Frederica Bernkastel said:
They wouldn't be able to find his DNA evidence on the knife anyways because the prosecutors were able to prove Willams wore gloves during the crime. He was a serial armed burglar after all. That's why he bragged about getting away with it to a snitch with details about the murder the police never revealed.

and he also tried to escape from prison when they told him he was being charged for the murder because they found Gayle's stuff in his car.
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The whole mess about DNA and the murder weapon is an example of the CSI Effect:
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It most often refers to the belief that jurors have come to demand more forensic evidence in criminal trials, thereby raising the effective standard of proof for prosecutors. While this belief is widely held among American legal professionals, some studies have suggested that crime shows are unlikely to cause such an effect, although frequent CSI viewers may place a lower value on circumstantial evidence.[2] As technology improves and becomes more prevalent throughout society, people may also develop higher expectations for the capabilities of forensic technology.[3] The CSI effect has also re-popularized the forensic sector of the criminal justice system in the media and academia.
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Happy Fish said:
Do you think being isolated from society and jammed in a small metal cell in the most depressing environment legally maintainable might change your point of view on your poor actions?
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Irrelevant.

The man committed murder, he took the life of another in a brutal and calculated fashion. For that the State of Missouri has decided the appropriate punishment is death.

Happy Fish said:
In non death penalty states he would be good behavior from being set free. I think it is crazy that he isn't even given that chance for mercy's sake alone.
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Poor Uncle Sloba got a life sentence from the big meanies at The Hague. Isn't 10 years enough for the violations of the law he committed?

Happy Fish said:
Longer than a life sentence and the attitude is still "well, no matter what we gotta kill 'em."
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I don't support the death penalty because I think the government is incompetent. Hell, I even have a fun story at the end.

But no, a life sentence in my book is the rest of a person life in prison. Want redemption?

Be a mentor to your fellow convict.

In my world, this fucker would be serving life without parole in solitary confinement. Perhaps after 20 years he could be stepped down gradually to gen pop absent any behavioral issues.
Why I think the government is incompetent:
I have worked for the the district attorneys office for quite a long time. While there, I have seen important documents misplaced or accidentally destroyed without appropriate notifications. I have been in the case file room in the basement of a courthouse and have had contractors hand documents the found that fell behind the document storage "bookcase" / file cabinet. I've seen the ladies in the bullpen spill coffee and whatever else over police reports. Who knows if the replacement documents made it back into a case file? Trusting the government with the death penalty is like trusting an ape with a gun.
 
KiwiFuzz2 said:
I'm not sure what you're advocating for.
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I just want people to consider 3 things.
1) The prison system is retarded and probably has made him worse. An argument no one has made yet.
2) A quarter of a century is a long time.
3) You have to be very caught in a mindset or routine to not change in 25 years.

I'd also like people to keep in mind I was responding to a guy who said they don't support the death penalty because of revenge or justice. Those are the only two rational reasons to support the death penalty. If it satisfies people's bloodlust I will put out there if the family were to say they wanted to shoot the bastard themselves I might be able to get behind that. You won't see me getting behind killing people, even killers, just because bureaucracy demands it when the family wants a lighter sentence.

As for bringing up a more broken person from more ancient times, I'm not sure that is an argument against rehabilitation for anyone ever.
 
Happy Fish said:
3) You have to be very caught in a mindset or routine to not change in 25 years.
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I feel like a sucker for replying but I am having a shitty night so here goes:

I think there is a fatal flaw that's endemic to both certain sectors on the left and certain sectors on the right where they don't believe in mental illness. Genuine retardation, too. And I know that there's chicanery on both sides about this.

To wit, John Wayne Gacy insisted that he never meant to kill his first victim, he just wound up fighting with the kid and accidentally killed him and after the fact he realized that he had jizzed while killing the kid.

First kill, probably goes down as manslaughter.

Do you kick out the chair?
 
KiwiFuzz2 said:
I feel like a sucker for replying but I am having a shitty night so here goes:

I think there is a fatal flaw that's endemic to both certain sectors on the left and certain sectors on the right where they don't believe in mental illness. Genuine retardation, too. And I know that there's chicanery on both sides about this.

To wit, John Wayne Gacy insisted that he never meant to kill his first victim, he just wound up fighting with the kid and accidentally killed him and after the fact he realized that he had jizzed while killing the kid.

First kill, probably goes down as manslaughter.

Do you kick out the chair?
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You are comparing serial murderers to an exceptionally brutal non serial murderer. I'm just going to be at odds with people on subjects like this because I believe in society perusing rehabilitation over retribution. Is that going to work in all cases? Fuck no. Is revenge justified in many cases? Definitely. Is our system set up in a way that even begins to facilitate anything resembling rehabilitation? lmfao no. I just think it is senseless if the family doesn't want the guy to die, because that is the main best reason to kill him. They are the ones that still have to suffer which is why I believe it should be their call.
 
Happy Fish said:
I just think it is senseless if the family doesn't want the guy to die, because that is the main best reason to kill him. They are the ones that still have to suffer which is why I believe it should be their call.
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He was a multiple felon, and he even tried to escape by attacking a prison guard. If the guy got out, he would have robbed and killed someone else. The purpose of the law is suppose to be the protection of society and not sentimentalism.
 
Frederica Bernkastel said:
He was a multiple felon, and he even tried to escape by attacking a prison guard. If the guy got out, he would have robbed and killed someone else. The purpose of the law is suppose to be the protection of society and not sentimentalism.
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There is nothing sentimental about life in prison. Life in prison is not getting away with anything. It is being punished by being stripped of freedom for the rest of your life, especially if there is no chance of parole.
 
LaxerBRO said:
The whole mess about DNA and the murder weapon is an example of the CSI Effect:
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>10 Eyewitnesses
We already have plenty of studies where large groups of people describe the same events and same person incorrectly. We have incidents where police guided the eyewitnesses into changing what they've seen as well. The CSI Effect has nothing on the Rashomon Effect. It's even in the Bible lmao.

>Plead Guilty
This is America. Pleading Guilty does not mean you actually did it and Confessions don't mean shit.
Pleading Guilty in America, simply means you're accepting the charge you're being given and you believe that fighting it is going to result in a worse charge. "Just plead guilty to the lesser charge and you won't get the worse charge"
Confessions are equally broken, torture someone long enough and they'll admit to being Theodore Kazinsky's reincarnation.
Look at this shit. -This year- A dude was forced by police into admitting he killed his father, after 17 hours of non-stop interrogation. They broke this man and stuffed him in a psych ward when they were done. His father was alive well, if his dad had left the country, this man would have been railroaded through the courts due to the confession.

And this was in commiefornia and nobody knew until after the fact. It was almost perfectly covered up. https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/05/us/fontana-pressured-murder-confession/index.html

Our system is too eager to punish someone anyone, rather than punish the correct person.
And that's not getting into uneven punishment, depending on wealth and race. (A Rich Baby Fucker and a Serial Rapist did not set foot in a prison because " they couldn't handle it")

tldr: Forensic Science is important and trying to downplay it is silly. Too many people have had their lives ruined because people "saw" someone do something they didn't do in this country.
 
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