Communism debate nuance edition

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Focusing on oil, I don't believe there's really that much difference between the oil industry in the USSR compared to western countries. Oil shares similarities with other extraction industries where they have to heavily refine the product before it can be used. In the west, large vertically integrated oil producers tend to own their outlets for distribution, like gas stations. These gasoline retail businesses show characteristics of a monopoly or oligopoly where a single business controls the prices in a given region of a country. If the USSR had been dependent on oil, like Saudi Arabia, it would've been stable even through the period of declining oil prices SINCE the USSR probably didn't export crude oil. The USSR probably had a state monopoly on the production and refinement of oil. In other words, it was vertically integrated. The price of crude oil may fluctuate greatly, but gasoline is more stable. The USSR was probably selling gasoline at more stable prices compared to crude oil at unstable prices.

That being said, I concede that it's possible the USSR mismanaged its oil industry. Throughout its history, the oil industry has been subject to more government intervention because of the importance energy has for the modern world.

You're right, there wasn't really any difference between them in terms of structure although the USSR didn't have the same technical capacity to produce refined products with the same quality in quantities like the US or Saudi Arabia. It wasn't really needed in the USSR since most vehicles were designed to run on lower-octane fuels and diesel that they could produce and the higher grades were only needed for aviation/military purposes.

However, crude oil exports were extremely critical during the 1970s because the Soviets needed to earn hard currency to fund food imports as well as purchases of machinery/equipment and technological products their domestic industries couldn't produce. There was a lack of investment in these sectors in the preceding decades which meant domestic equipment was very outdated technologically and made it difficult to produce any products besides raw materials that were competitive on the world market.

The Soviet ruble couldn't be used to purchase products from non-Comecon countries since it wasn't convertible and had artificially low, fixed exchange rates. So they had to earn dollars/yen/pounds/etc. to purchase products from these countries.

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

Most North Koreans outside of Pyongyang for better or worse still live and worship like 19th century Joseon with the House of Yi replaced with the Kims.

CURIOUS how North Korea has destroyed the traditional Confucian family structure though. In Confucianism, if there's a conflict between the interests of the head of a household, like a father, and the interests of a monarch, the members of the household are supposed to follow their father and not the monarch. Needless to say, the inverse is true in North Korea. Marxist ideology in North Korea was revolutionary for the family structure. They focused on destroying the old family structure in order to lay the foundations of what is called the "big family" (taegajõng).

There is room for nuance here. Early on in the communist regime, they did prohibit Confucian traditions, such as ancestor worship, that were considered feudal. But these crackdowns only lasted for as long as there were internal and external enemies. For example, in the 1950s, there was pressure from the USSR to undergo de-stalinisation. North Korea resisted. After Kim Il Sung defeated his internal enemies and established agricultural collectivization, North Korea then tolerated certain forms of ancestor worship from the 1960s onwards. In 1974, Kim Il Sung gave a speech where he encouraged socialist ancestor worship.

 

[Glowie]

Koreas have used Confucianism to varying degrees to justify their rule. Notably, South Korea takes certain elements of Confucianism while rejecting others because they're "outdated." Confucianism is just used as a political tool. When Confucian principles were inconvenient for the DPRK, they tried to tear them down. For example, early on in North Korea, they banned feudal clan systems and customs that were based on Confucianism. It was convenient to embrace Confucianism when it came to the line of succession for the Kim family cult. Neither Korean state is founded on Confucianism. One is a secular republic and the other a dictatorship of the proletariat. I just believe North Korea embraces Confucianism out of convenience and would drop it at the first sign of trouble. What North Korea will never drop is communism because that is the true basis of its state.

It's worth mentioning that after North Korea tore down old thinking as per communist doctrine, North Korea's Kim il song the second's bastardized neo-confucian thinking to to appear legimate this was just a facade to justify self serving communist rule, everything that Confucius taught rulers to look after their subjects with a just hand isn't applied by Kim family whenever it's labor-prison camps, mass famines, Kim family hoarding wealth kidnapping and meeting celebrities that Kim gushed over, Kim family ant North Korean elite lived in opulence in their Potemkin cities while peasants died from famine, inability to stock up food and idiotic projects and order farmers to breed giant rabbits for meat, ignoring the fact rabbits are pests which eat through agriculture produce than NK military eat through their GDP. Conf

problem is the USSR's economy was increasingly unable to do that as the 1970s dragged on and by the early 1980s was in serious trouble due to the collapse in oil prices that had propped up a lot of sectors in the preceding decade. The leadership just didn't have the same kind of initiative or open-mindedness to new ideas and reforms that existed in the 1950s and 1960s under Khrushchev.

Focusing on oil, I don't believe there's really that much difference between the oil industry in the USSR compared to western countries. Oil shares similarities with other extraction industries where they have to heavily refine the product before it can be used. In the west, large vertically integrated oil producers tend to own their outlets for distribution, like gas stations. These gasoline retail businesses show characteristics of a monopoly or oligopoly where a single business controls the prices in a given region of a country. If the USSR had been dependent on oil, like Saudi Arabia, it would've been stable even through the period of declining oil prices SINCE the USSR probably didn't export crude oil. The USSR probably had a state monopoly on the production and refinement of oil. In other words, it was vertically integrated. The price of crude oil may fluctuate greatly, but gasoline is more stable. The USSR was probably selling gasoline at more stable prices compared to crude oil at unstable prices.

That being said, I concede that it's possible the USSR mismanaged its oil industry. Throughout its history, the oil industry has been subject to more government intervention because of the importance energy has for the modern world.

It didn't help Russia's only exports were and still are oil and gas. Which was USSRs and Russia's weakspots. Communist countries always lagged behind developing (Read stealing) aged technology from copying notes from dead Nazi Germany to espionage (US developed nuclear tech, USSR copied they handed tech to CCP. Russia still using engines from Nazi tanks and copying StG 44). Communist Potemkin culture is all about facades, when someone or society itself can't keep up appearances shit hits the fan, look at state of CCP right now, low living standards, rising inequity, flight of capital and brain drain. Reason why Berlin wall was built.

 

[MMS-China]

Communist Potemkin culture is all about facades, when someone or society itself can't keep up appearances shit hits the fan, look at state of CCP right now, low living standards, rising inequity, flight of capital and brain drain. Reason why Berlin wall was built.

China is looking okay to me.

But exactly what is Communist about China? I would say the only main thing is state control of Corporations. Which is probably a good idea. As it turns out, if Corporations are left to their own devices, they control the Government, as the US has demonstrated.

 

[BirdUp]

As it turns out, if Corporations are left to their own devices, they control the Government, as the US has demonstrated.

that always happens when a government exists for corporations to lobby and leverage themselves off
the chinese government is definitely as corrupt as any western government

 

[MMS-China]

that always happens when a government exists for corporations to lobby and leverage themselves off
the chinese government is definitely as corrupt as any western government

But does the West do anything about it?

 

[BirdUp]

But does the West do anything about it?

occasionally

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

T. Failed to read every source that I linked and ignore the fact soviets didn't do anything to reverse the disaster and left the former Soviet corrupt republics to their own devices. Soviets could've closed dams at any point, but they didn't. Stop trying shift the blame here and bring bring up More distractions that supposedly strengthen the your argument, It doesn't

The Soviets couldn't close the dams because the USSR didn't exist after 1991. Read my post again before you make stupid arguments like this. I can tell you have no response because you've once again resorted to projection, insults, and ignoring my demand to actually make a relevant point.

University studies and other sources round 4 million deaths in Ukraine alone, which is Holodomor. I stated this number and multiple sources support this claim, your papers too ironically enough, in the author states famine wasn't natural and this was talking about Ukraine specifically. Now what people call intentional starvation of 4 million people? Genocide by hunger or Holodomor, are you going against your own, accounts from former Soviet republics and university studies with weak comeback "Well akshually there was famine through Soviet Union" well no shit Sherlock that was an astute observation! Name Soviet republic that was targeted by Stalin and had 4 dead. Commies and their modern versions reject Holomdomor, that sounds oddly familiar. No-one is denying manmade famine of 1932 which totals 8 million, half of which were Ukrainians you keep claiming this number is inflated without proof, I might

Because it wasn't intentional but the result of bad policy. That's like saying the US government intentionally tortured and ethnically cleansed Oklahomans in the Dust Bowl. It isn't a surprise that idea is promoted by ex-Nazi collaborators like Mykola Lebed who had to portray the USSR as being worse than the Nazis who actually did an intentional famine (Hunger Plan). If it was intentional, then why did Stalin send food aid to the Ukraine? Not a single shred of evidence exists for the famine being intentional other than the extent that the Soviets thought they had a good policy. Since it was not intentional and there was no intent to wipe out the Ukrainian people (as obvious by the fact the Politburo in the early 30s was 1/3 Ukrainian), you cannot call it genocide ergo the term "Holodomor" is a load of nonsense.

That the Ukrainian SSR's population decreased doesn't mean anything since people regularly emigrated to large cities or to Siberia (voluntarily or involuntarily). All we know is a lot of people died, but less than the hysterical numbers often cited like "muh 7 million Ukrainians" (they made it 7 million to beat the 6 million Jews).

I didn't compare, I listed results of USSR, retarded handling of the environment, stupid

Okay, now tell me how any of that has to do with communism since those American examples show it has everything to do with industrialization and nothing to do with communism (or maybe it does since FDR--who contrary to your claims was not a capitalist--did a lot of industrial development). You can call it "irrelevant" all you want, but demonstrating environmental disasters are just as inherent to capitalism as they are communism disproves every point you've made on this topic which you demonstrate not a shred of understanding.

It didn't help Russia's only exports were and still are oil and gas. Which was USSRs and Russia's weakspots. Communist countries always lagged behind developing (Read stealing) aged technology from copying notes from dead Nazi Germany to espionage (US developed nuclear tech, USSR copied they handed tech to CCP. Russia still using engines from Nazi tanks and copying StG 44). Communist Potemkin culture is all about facades, when someone or society itself can't keep up appearances shit hits the fan, look at state of CCP right now, low living standards, rising inequity, flight of capital and brain drain. Reason why Berlin wall was built.

I see economics and military history is another thing you know nothing about given Russia exports far more than fossil fuels and lack of Russian grain and especially Russian fertilizer due to the idiotic sanctions helped drive the rising food prices in 2022-23. And of course complete ignorance that the USSR built superior planes and tanks to the Nazis due to being actually practical to mass produce and win a war with. That must mean Nazism is superior since they invented jerrycans (stolen by Americans and Britbongs) and the V2 rocket (stolen by Americans).

 

[Garamok]

Tl;dr: communism is bad

 

[Glowie]

China is looking okay to me.

NSVSeTTssiHCL7Q7.mp4

But exactly what is Communist about China? I would say the only main thing is state control of Corporations. Which is probably a good idea. As it turns out, if Corporations are left to their own devices, they control the Government, as the US has demonstrated.

Nice Chinese Potemkin culture, now in behind coal guzzling propaganda Malls are empty Ghost cities
Now where majority lives

Sanghai Slums

Beijing slums

Looks third would to me rural population can't afford Potemkin apartments so they settle in but pods like these.

CCP is doing so well these days.

 

[MMS-China]

Nice Chinese Potemkin culture, now in behind coal guzzling propaganda Malls are empty Ghost cities
Now where majority lives
View attachment 5490250
Sanghai Slums
View attachment 5490253
Beijing slums

Looks third would to me rural population can't afford Potemkin apartments so they settle in but pods like these.

CCP is doing so well these days.

The shanty towns were built in the 1930's. They are still there because as people are moved into new accommodation, new people come in from the countryside looking for work and take up residence.

 

[Glowie]

The shanty towns were built in the 1930's. They are still there because as people are moved into new accommodation, new people come in from the countryside looking for work and take up residence.

They're still there and people who live there can't afford better with 300 yuan a month wages (often less or none at all with "let it rot" culture) civilized world got rid of shanty towns centuries ago excluding Africa.

Real estate and housing market crashed, do you really think modern serf class can afford an apartment which go for 500,000 to million RMB? You can't either.

Communists keep their population destitute and force them live in squalors or streets like millions who lost everything in three typhoons and following floods months ago.

 

[MMS-China]

civilized world got rid of shanty towns centuries ago excluding Africa.

Whatever you say sir.

 

[Glowie]

Because it wasn't intentional but the result of bad policy. That's like saying the US government intentionally tortured and ethnically cleansed Oklahomans in the Dust Bowl. It isn't a surprise that idea is promoted by ex-Nazi collaborators like Mykola Lebed who had to portray the USSR as being worse than the Nazis who actually did an intentional famine (Hunger Plan). If it was intentional, then why did Stalin send food aid to the Ukraine? Not a single shred of evidence exists for the famine being intentional other than the extent that the Soviets thought they had a good policy. Since it was not intentional and there was no intent to wipe out the Ukrainian people (as obvious by the fact the Politburo in the early 30s was 1/3 Ukrainian), you cannot call it genocide ergo the term "Holodomor" is a load of nonsense.

Stalin shipped grain away from Ukraine, targeted kolkoz class and continued to collect grain despite ongoing famine. Your own source stated the famine wasn't natural.


Source to prove that Stalin shipped grain away from countryside, aiming to destroy Ukrainian peasantry
Impossible quotas, firing squad for thieves of state property.
Secondary source supporting claim and sources above
You still haven't provided proof this ex Nazi conspiracy to brainwash western Academia and studies above. You've only given semantics and vague statements without appropriate citations and use false equivalence to give your genocide illusion of credibility.
Ergo, you are desperate.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Nice Chinese Potemkin culture, now in behind coal guzzling propaganda Malls are empty Ghost cities

The infamous South China Mall has had high occupancy rates since 2015. Pre-scamdemic it was at 91%.

Stalin shipped grain away from Ukraine, targeted kolkoz class and continued to collect grain despite ongoing famine. Your own source stated the famine wasn't natural.

It also said Stalin tried to alleviate the famine once it was known. Funny how you keep ignoring that point since it so utterly destroys the claim that there was an intentional mass murder by famine of Ukrainians. Shipping vast amounts of grain away was a necessary part of Soviet agricultural policy at the time to raise money via exports, ergo it is bad policy. This happened in China under Mao in Sichuan, Henan, etc. because their leaders were especially vigorous in implementing Mao's bad policies, but nobody says Mao wanted to mass murder the people of Sichuan or Henan.

Source to prove that Stalin shipped grain away from countryside, aiming to destroy Ukrainian peasantry
Impossible quotas, firing squad for thieves of state property.
Secondary source supporting claim and sources above
You still haven't provided proof this ex Nazi conspiracy to brainwash western Academia and studies above. You've only given semantics and vague statements without appropriate citations and use false equivalence to give your genocide illusion of credibility.
Ergo, you are desperate.

Although I disagree with the conclusions that collectivization was a benefit, this article exposes the origin of the Holodomor lie and its link to Ukronazism. The guy who says 7-10 Ukrainians died is a Banderite trying to make Ukrainians into bigger victims than Jews (since muh 7 million is worse than muh 6 million).

Other than that, congrats for giving no evidence whatsoever that the Holodomor was a genocide of Ukrainians given the exact same thing occurred to Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs, etc. during collectivization. You might just be too illiterate (you don't speak English well, so you probably don't read it well either) to understand that I'm not saying there wasn't a Stalinist famine, I'm saying there wasn't a Holodomor (a targeted genocidal famine against specifically Ukrainians).

BTW have we given up all the other silly arguments you've been making or have you just ran out of steam because you've been solidly BTFO on your asinine attempts to ignore the equalization of wealth under communism as noted by the Soviet Gini coefficient or claims that "regulatory capitalism" i.e. Obama-style junk is actually free market?

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

(Read stealing)

Is this a book suggestion?

Communist Potemkin culture is all about facades, when someone or society itself can't keep up appearances shit hits the fan, look at state of CCP right now, low living standards, rising inequity, flight of capital and brain drain. Reason why Berlin wall was built.

It's not fair to compare East Germany to China for multiple reasons, but the biggest one being that China has made reforms to not disintegrate unlike East Germany. In other words, China still exists so they must be doing something right.

You don't know if China has the "communist Potemkin culture" that you speak about. Even though we're living in the 21st century, where information is more open than ever before, the thinking of Chinese leaders is one thing that has remained opaque. Westoids looking at China tend to exaggerate how different Chinese politics are compared to the west, but if there's one thing that we know is true it's that everyone in politics is seeking to gain more power. I know I railed hard against North Korea having "Confucian principles" earlier in this thread, but there's something different with China: "modern Chinese leaders – with Xi very prominently among them – have set the moral teaching of the philosopher (Confucius) from 2,500 years ago as the worthy standard to appeal to and seek legitimacy from." Source: CEO, China The Rise of Xi Jinping (Kerry Brown), pg 20. I believe that the leaders of China have little in common with their North Korean counterparts. Xi Xinping is notably different. His father was sent to do hard labour by the CCP and Xi himself was sent to the countryside as a "sent-down youth." In contrast to other communist leaders, Xi Xinping could be considered more "down to earth." Xi Xinping, in taking measures against corruption, sentenced Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang to life in prison in 2014 and 2015 respectively.

As for communist countries only being able to steal technology, to some extent that might be true, but, as detailed by Josh Moon in his MATI streams, the Chinese are making huge developments in programming that haven't yet reached the west because of the language barrier. China also has hypersonic missiles and NATO doesn't.

I don't believe China has a low standard of living. China has the largest middle class in the world and they are dominating the luxury goods market. They've lifted 660 million people out of poverty since 1979.

If my post seems disordered, that's because it is. I'm trying to argue my position the best I can while researching. If you provide any sources that I can read, I swear that I will read them.

 

[Glowie]

I don't believe China has a low standard of living. China has the largest middle class in the world and they are dominating the luxury goods market. They've lifted 660 million people out of poverty since 1979.

Those boomers are dying out, textile and steel factories are closing left and right due to excess production, white and blue collar workers are getting hit hard. People are forced to take a vacation with monthly wage of 2,300~ yuan. Students out of college can't find work and people over age of 60 aren't wanted in China's labor pool.

It's also worth to mention that CCP lowered threshold of and definition of poverty at least twice. Rural migrants are moving back to countryside since wages are low, cost of housing is high, utilities, food and healthcare. Only affluent high credit score citizens can afford to in Sanghai, Beijing and other industrial hubs. China's export business is all time low which, Chinese EVs fail to meet EUs safety and quality regulations.

Xi's horrid mismanagement, corrupt central and regional governments are contributing to stagnation.

Days of 1979 are long gone, CCP is ramping it's military and propaganda wings. Hiring unemployed party, to the point wumaos are making accounts on a forum for gossiping flightless birds.

 

[MMS-China]

Those boomers are dying out, textile and steel factories are closing left and right due to excess production, white and blue collar workers are getting hit hard. People are forced to take a vacation with monthly wage of 2,300~ yuan. Students out of college can't find work and people over age of 60 aren't wanted in China's labor pool.

It's also worth to mention that CCP lowered threshold of and definition of poverty at least twice. Rural migrants are moving back to countryside since wages are low, cost of housing is high, utilities, food and healthcare. Only affluent high credit score citizens can afford to in Sanghai, Beijing and other industrial hubs. China's export business is all time low which, Chinese EVs fail to meet EUs safety and quality regulations.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gY8ElfArXTAXi's horrid mismanagement, corrupt central and regional governments are contributing to stagnation.

Days of 1979 are long gone, CCP is ramping it's military and propaganda wings. Hiring unemployed party, to the point wumaos are making accounts on a forum for gossiping flightless birds.

I don't know why you guys insist on using Falun Gong sources. It's almost an open secret they are the official Anti-China arm of the US Government. Why do you think the cult leader has his vast compound and residence in New York?

http://ph.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/zt/3/200502/t20050227_1334832.htm

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

I don't know why you guys insist on using Falun Gong sources. It's almost an open secret they are the official Anti-China arm of the US Government. Why do you think the cult leader has his vast compound and residence in New York?

View attachment 5497915

http://ph.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/zt/3/200502/t20050227_1334832.htm

Because propagandized retards like OP are too simpleminded to do much else. These are not people able to discern good sources or make good arguments.

 

[Glowie]

I don't know why you guys insist on using Falun Gong sources. It's almost an open secret they are the official Anti-China arm of the US Government. Why do you think the cult leader has his vast compound and residence in New York?

View attachment 5497915

http://ph.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/zt/3/200502/t20050227_1334832.htm

Deflection post invalid.

Because propagandized retards like OP are too simpleminded to do much else. These are not people able to discern good sources or make good arguments.

Like yours that support the fact Holodomor happened and killed 4 million Ukrainians? You responded with semantics and claimed that there is ex Nazi and Ukrainians collusion inflated the numbers without sources, good job dear college liberal.

Despite being Falun Gong, you can find economic statistics, weibo and WeChat sources to show how decline of CCP affects the common man. Generic fallacy at work.
Additional sources are available