Communism debate nuance edition

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So my claim was:
*The USSR was as economically equal as the most equal European economies (which is an actual achievement)
*Poverty was concentrated in peripheral regions

Literally nothing in that excerpt contradicts what I said. But you need your mountain of straw.
Statistics that you provided yourself show immense poverty in USSR
About that surpassing US, yeah that didn't happen.

What you provided contradicted what you claimed
LMAO says the guy who spends the post insulting me while misinterpreting my point. At this point I think it's deliberate, like I'm arguing with a sub-ChatGPT bot.
You, yourself presented figure (38 % reduction in poverty) that was your claim and I quote "poverty was 38 % actually" do you admit your mistake or do you still stand by your statement? ChatGPT praise your inputs with high praise and add to it's database, it would work in your favor. Multiple sources, journalists and graphs prove that USSR had 3/4 GDP. Hell most of countries surpassed USSR. Graphs related
GDP-per-capita-ppp-selected-countries-1900-2010-GK-international-US-dollars.png
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Ah, the same self-sufficiency you have by *checks notes* watching CIA propaganda on Youtube all day whilst poorly debating your points on Kiwifarms (a website targeted by the elite for censorship). Enjoy living in the bughive with your mandatory iSocialCreditScore app.
Watching broke college indoctrinated tankies on welfare, wumaos, retards in general. (Since communism works in imagination of literal autistics that falls in retard category) between my hobbies, income.
Frankly what brought yet another emotional outbursts from your end that is completely irrelevant to debate at hand. Which is to (dis)prove that communism works in practice, theories and whatifs don't count. Also I added PDF that you failed to add for some reason.
 

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Another basic problem Communism can't overcome is the economic calculation issue. Without a market mechanism, there is no way to properly value inputs and outputs and determine the relative demand for and value of different kinds of labor.

Even without a centrally planned economy, that will lead to waste of scarce resources and underutilization of abundant ones, and misallocation of labor leading to unemployment where it's not needed and shortages where it is. I can't think of a way you can balance supply and demand without a market (or state-controlled rationing), and you can't have a market without profit and loss on goods and services.
There's literally millions of prices.
In Red Plenty, novel about the Krushchev era when Soviet life seemed optimistic, it goes into how they invent linear programming and then do tons of hardcore theory, tons of big room-sized computers spinning, only to rederive market equilibrium from capitalist economic theory. Gone all the way around in a big circle, reinvented the wheel.

You could have literally perfect people and a Communist society would STILL fail because it cannot resolve that. An economy requires decentralized planning.


@StealingElectricity Economic theory doesn't even require "currency" as I'm sure you mean it. You can pick any arbitrary good and make it your currency, a measuring stick for the others.
 
Statistics that you provided yourself show immense poverty in USSR
About that surpassing US, yeah that didn't happen.

What you provided contradicted what you claimed
Nope. I never once made a claim that the USSR surpassed the US economically, but it is an objective fact that the USSR surpassed the US in Gini coefficient i.e wealth equality, and also surpassed nearly every Western country besides Sweden and Norway (socialists). Look, I know it's hard to argue with the actual points I make since it doesn't match the strawmen you have in mind, but if we're going to actually have a debate than you gotta do it.
You, yourself presented figure (38 % reduction in poverty) that was your claim and I quote "poverty was 38 % actually" do you admit your mistake or do you still stand by your statement? ChatGPT praise your inputs with high praise and add to it's database, it would work in your favor. Multiple sources, journalists and graphs prove that USSR had 3/4 GDP. Hell most of countries surpassed USSR. Graphs related
Okay, so if you think my claim was 38% reduction in poverty, you lack the reading comprehension to even be having this debate with me. I suggest you learn both reading comprehension AND the English language. ChatGPT can help you with that.

You can keep ignoring the actual points I made to argue at a mountain of straw, but the sad thing is you can't even do that right. Those graphs you posted confirm exactly what I already said. The USSR grew at a similar rate to developed nations while having only minimal elements of being a capitalist society. The problem with communism was that it did not create growth at the rate capitalism does (as evidenced by modern China), but the Soviet Union did not have nearly the human problems China does and especially did caused by capitalism.
Watching broke college indoctrinated tankies on welfare, wumaos, retards in general. (Since communism works in imagination of literal autistics that falls in retard category) between my hobbies, income.
Frankly what brought yet another emotional outbursts from your end that is completely irrelevant to debate at hand. Which is to (dis)prove that communism works in practice, theories and whatifs don't count. Also I added PDF that you failed to add for some reason.
It's so irrelevant to the topic that you copypasted ChatGPT in a foolish attempt to defend your absolutely ludicrous claims that government regulation is part of capitalism. It's hilarious you fancy yourself the person being logical or reasonable here when you're trying to assert that FDR as some sort of free market capitalist hero. Either stand by your point or say you were wrong, and if it's so irrelevant, please take it to a new thread entitled "Debate User Glowie on how great FDR and Woodrow Wilson were for the free market."
 
Okay, so if you think my claim was 38% reduction in poverty, you lack the reading comprehension to even be having this debate with me. I suggest you learn both reading comprehension AND the English language. ChatGPT can help you with that.

You can keep ignoring the actual points I made to argue at a mountain of straw, but the sad thing is you can't even do that right. Those graphs you posted confirm exactly what I already said. The USSR grew at a similar rate to developed nations while having only minimal elements of being a capitalist society. The problem with communism was that it did not create growth at the rate capitalism does (as evidenced by modern China), but the Soviet Union did not have nearly the human problems China does and especially did caused by capitalism.
First to break few illusions what you think was going on in Soviet Union
-Due to controlled economy majority of population were forced to live unmaintained tzar era buildings
-Living standards weren't comparable to developed countries, far from it breadlines are one example
-55 hours of work compared to to 5-8 which came with safety nets, health and union regulations
-Lower you were on party status quo worse off you were
-Soviets self reported equality indexes, touted propaganda to Western consulates
-Western luxuries were forbidden, media and working outside the collective system was against the law
-Due worthlessness of ruble since everyone earned shit wages to their western contemporaries barter and bootleg economy was thriving
-Ruthless police state
-Students like you had to work in collective farms in between studies on degrees that weren't equal (intellengsia was obsolete and were slave to the system like rest of the lot)

That being said you'd be better off as a student in west Germany than east Germany for some reason people didn't want to live in a communist paradise where Stasi kept population from fleeing. Tell me what utopia needs walls to keep people in?
People fled USSR, Soviet Korea and China to developed countries, gni was only on paper, reality was different. Source attached


Multiple sources that were given to you which you didn't read, here you are again strawmanning
USSR so well off that were waiting lines for your everything, from necessities to bougie goods. Everyone is equal on the breadlines
It's so irrelevant to the topic that you copypasted ChatGPT in a foolish attempt to defend your absolutely ludicrous claims that government regulation is part of capitalism. It's hilarious you fancy yourself the person being logical or reasonable here when you're trying to assert that FDR as some sort of free market capitalist hero. Either stand by your point or say you were wrong, and if it's so irrelevant, please take it to a new thread entitled "Debate User Glowie on how great FDR and Woodrow Wilson were for the free market."
ChatGPT is your new bogeyman for you, got it. There you are again claiming that I was talking about either FDR or Woodrow Wilson, I mentioned neither of. Did you notice that you have habit building strawmen when you loose your cool?

Inb4 Gish Gallop.
 

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First to break few illusions what you think was going on in Soviet Union
-Due to controlled economy majority of population were forced to live unmaintained tzar era buildings
I too love tsarblocks

1699091794732.jpeg
-Living standards weren't comparable to developed countries, far from it breadlines are one example
-55 hours of work compared to to 5-8 which came with safety nets, health and union regulations
-Lower you were on party status quo worse off you were
-Soviets self reported equality indexes, touted propaganda to Western consulates
-Western luxuries were forbidden, media and working outside the collective system was against the law
-Due worthlessness of ruble since everyone earned shit wages to their western contemporaries barter and bootleg economy was thriving
-Ruthless police state
-Students like you had to work in collective farms in between studies on degrees that weren't equal (intellengsia was obsolete and were slave to the system like rest of the lot)
More gish gallop nonsense I won't even bother refuting. I posted the paper and the graphs and all you can do is make a bunch of claims that show you have never read the paper, ignore the graphs, and refuse to address the actual point.

Anyway, attached paper suggests that the black market never employed more than 10-15% of Soviet citizens and never made up much more than 30% of the economy, and like poverty was concentrated in peripheral regions. Even if we assume there's a 1-1 connection with the Gini coefficient and it's actually 30% worse, that still puts the USSR on par or even slightly better than the US, Canada, and France.
That being said you'd be better off as a student in west Germany than east Germany for some reason people didn't want to live in a communist paradise where Stasi kept population from fleeing. Tell me what utopia needs walls to keep people in?
People fled USSR, Soviet Korea and China to developed countries, gni was only on paper, reality was different. Source attached
It's funny you have to strawman my arguments to claim I'm saying communism was a utopia when I'm more or less judging communism by what existed before and what came after. It's clear by the actual reality that communism was often an improvement (i.e. USSR vs Russian Empire) over what came before and today still has better societies. North Korea does not have the degenerate, disgusting culture that South Korea does for instance.
ChatGPT is your new bogeyman for you, got it. There you are again claiming that I was talking about either FDR or Woodrow Wilson, I mentioned neither of. Did you notice that you have habit building strawmen when you loose your cool?

Inb4 Gish Gallop.
Because I assumed you knew that all of those government regulations came primarily from Woodrow Wilson or FDR given you're bringing up regulations that emerged because of the creation of the Federal Reserve and the Glass-Steagall Act. Or lest I forget, trying to assert the EPA and associated acts are free market, or claiming the legislation that came about because of writings from literal socialist Upton Sinclair are free market. Maybe you really didn't, I don't know, I guess it's wrong to assume I'm talking to someone with any knowledge of the subject.

Anyway, are you going to post an actual response to your claim that government regulation of the sort Wilson and FDR did is free-market capitalism, or are you just going to hide behind NO YOU DID A LOGICAL FALLACY like you always do when proven wrong?
 

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More gish gallop nonsense I won't even bother refuting. I posted the paper and the graphs and all you can do is make a bunch of claims that show you have never read the paper, ignore the graphs, and refuse to address the actual point.
Methinks you accuse people of fallacies and accuse me for not reading material that I post, in fact the paper in attachment backs up every claim that I made. (Johnson 1984)
I too love tsarblocks
Have you been in eastern block inner cities by any chance? Commie blocks were erected en masse to house rural migrants and you had to wait to lease an apartment, since you can't own it. Stalin era blocks lack kitchens, since workers used communal kitchens. You had to pay for heating and electricity with little pay you had left. (I provided paper comparing incomes, purchasing power, expenses and cost of goods if you recall). Commie blocks were for the workers, academics, low to mid tier officers lived in outer to inner cities depending who you were. The Elite champagne socialism to Villas
Because I assumed you knew that all of those government regulations came primarily from Woodrow Wilson or FDR given you're bringing up regulations that emerged because of the creation of the Federal Reserve and the Glass-Steagall Act. Or lest I forget, trying to assert the EPA and associated acts are free market, or claiming the legislation that came about because of writings from literal socialist Upton Sinclair are free market. Maybe you really didn't, I don't know, I guess it's wrong to assume I'm talking to someone with any knowledge of the subject.
You are aware regulations exist in other free market economies than america, right?
You keep thinking that I'm talking from nordic point of view, countries which adopted nordic model, post 90s Japan to prevent another bubble, since they're still reeling from last one Japan adoptedAbenomics EU has whole host categories to regulate trade, safety and fair trade
On top various regulations that individual free market countries set themselves. We'd be all day if I added more examples
It's funny you have to strawman my arguments to claim I'm saying communism was a utopia when I'm more or less judging communism by what existed before and what came after. It's clear by the actual reality that communism was often an improvement (i.e. USSR vs Russian Empire) over what came before and today still has better societies. North Korea does not have the degenerate, disgusting culture that South Korea does for instance.
Stay on topic, don't start comparing societies which are "degenerate" "facist" (If you read material from east Germany when wall was up. Demonization of the enemy was important after Millions defected causing brain drain, loss of labor then some. I documents about quality of life, dismantling USSR propaganda.

Soviet economy was dysfunctional and collapsed, Gini rating didn't reflect reality proven by defectors, number of papers that I gave to you in good faith.

Putting dissidents against the wall or in labor camps in exchange idyllic "conservative" paradise isn't worth it. Thanks to failure of Stalinism and less spoken Titoism eastern Europe past Poland has high corruption, poverty, inflation and aging structures and destruction of the environment ( eg Chernobyl and Aral Sea)

With all the material and historical records, I can safely say that communism will never work in practice and needs a closed off police state to control the population.

Side tangent
Moreover USSR successfully spread socialism across three generations and beyond as described by high ranking KGB defector Yuri Berzmenov in 1985


This phenomena isn't exclusive to US and USSR. CCP uses same playbook today funding Marxist orgs like BLM and antifa, shipping drugs over the border and destabilizing nations.

Lastly communism and promises of socialism appeal to broke college students, minorities and anyone who feels oppressed by the 1% Bernie supporters are wonderful example of this. It's poison and always has been.
 

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This phenomena isn't exclusive to US and USSR. CCP uses same playbook today funding Marxist orgs like BLM and antifa, shipping drugs over the border and destabilizing nations.

You constant shifting of blame to other countries when it comes to the Wests problems is amusing.

 
You constant shifting of blame to other countries when it comes to the Wests problems is amusing.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=sDtv6c631Ww:1
I don't accuse without evidence
CCP has shilling been George Floyd rioters CCP supports fentanyl crisis
CCP has been using front organisations for decades
And uses same tactics as USSR did.

Provide more nuance arguement, perhaps defend CCPs centralized economy, how CCP hides homeless and the poor just like USSR


Xis neo Maoism is great example lead to downwards spiral in economy

History is repeating itself.
 
I don't accuse without evidence
CCP has shilling been George Floyd rioters CCP supports fentanyl crisis
CCP has been using front organisations for decades
And uses same tactics as USSR did.

Provide more nuance arguement, perhaps defend CCPs centralized economy, how CCP hides homeless and the poor just like USSR

https://youtube.com/watch?v=KdC9xube-2c
Xis neo Maoism is great example lead to downwards spiral in economy

History is repeating itself.

You are mad a foreign country is acting in espionage? Maybe you should tell your countries to stop being so corrupt. And allowing it to happen.
 
You are mad a foreign country is acting in espionage? Maybe you should tell your countries to stop being so corrupt. And allowing it to happen.
Sorry I'm not Chinese, to complain about history of genocide, corruption and nepotism.
CCP is a perfect example of how communism is a failed ideology and economic model.
It hasn't worked and it will never work, it goes against human nature itself and every corrupt socialist/communist country is a testament to that.
 
Sorry I'm not Chinese, to complain about history of genocide, corruption and nepotism.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2CjLFa7W81ICCP is a perfect example of how communism is a failed ideology and economic model.
It hasn't worked and it will never work, it goes against human nature itself and every corrupt socialist/communist country is a testament to that.
Matthew Tye (born December 27, 1986), also known as Laowhy86

In early 2018, the public security bureau in Huizhou showed Tye's photograph in establishments frequented by foreigners as part of an investigation into his creation of an aerial video that they alleged to have shown a Huizhou military base.[3] He decided to immediately leave China where he had lived for 10 years. Tye traveled to to the United States, where he settled down with his family in Los Angeles. His YouTube channel began discussing political and social topics related to China, such as human rights in China, attempts by the government to pay social media influencers to post propaganda videos, and the COVID-19 lab leak theory.

Just another person recruited by US intelligence.
 
Methinks you accuse people of fallacies and accuse me for not reading material that I post, in fact the paper in attachment backs up every claim that I made. (Johnson 1984)
Absolutely none of which was under contention (since I agree with some of it) or relevant to the argument. We were arguing that the USSR was a more equal society with less gap between rich and poor (Gini coefficient) than the US and most of Europe, remember? You don't know what any of that actually means in practice so you just sperg out about communism again.
You are aware regulations exist in other free market economies than america, right?
You keep thinking that I'm talking from nordic point of view, countries which adopted nordic model, post 90s Japan to prevent another bubble, since they're still reeling from last one Japan adoptedAbenomics EU has whole host categories to regulate trade, safety and fair trade
On top various regulations that individual free market countries set themselves. We'd be all day if I added more examples
No, answer the question. Why is government regulation be it Japanese, Scandinavian, or American (Wilson/FDR style) somehow free market? There's a reason everything from the Fed to the EPA to FDR's banking acts has been labeled communism (and I'm sure the same occurred in foreign countries when they introduced their equivalent) and that's because they're blatantly anti-free market and in many cases were introduced or promoted by literal socialists like Upton Sinclair, Clement Attlee, etc.
Stay on topic, don't start comparing societies which are "degenerate" "facist" (If you read material from east Germany when wall was up. Demonization of the enemy was important after Millions defected causing brain drain, loss of labor then some. I documents about quality of life, dismantling USSR propaganda.
Bold claim from the guy who can't actually debate the points I'm contesting and instead go on random tangents sperging about how bad communism is in general i.e. your mountain of straw. I have no idea why you think I'm a communist when my entire point has always been that certain aspects about communism aren't bad even if as a whole communism is far less efficient than a mixed economic model. You don't seem very interested in debating the nuances of communism.
Putting dissidents against the wall or in labor camps in exchange idyllic "conservative" paradise isn't worth it. Thanks to failure of Stalinism and less spoken Titoism eastern Europe past Poland has high corruption, poverty, inflation and aging structures and destruction of the environment ( eg Chernobyl and Aral Sea)
Aral Sea disaster got worse after the collapse of the USSR. It was being managed much better under Soviet policies than Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan. 1699182125658.jpeg
Left is 1989, right is 2014.

And yes, it is very much worth it to put dissidents on the wall or in labor camps. That's obvious because every society, communist or not, did that before liberalism took over in the 20th century. Even primitive tribes would make criminals/bad people into slaves or do shit like drown them.
Have you been in eastern block inner cities by any chance? Commie blocks were erected en masse to house rural migrants and you had to wait to lease an apartment, since you can't own it. Stalin era blocks lack kitchens, since workers used communal kitchens. You had to pay for heating and electricity with little pay you had left. (I provided paper comparing incomes, purchasing power, expenses and cost of goods if you recall). Commie blocks were for the workers, academics, low to mid tier officers lived in outer to inner cities depending who you were. The Elite champagne socialism to Villas
You literally just said they were "Tsar-era buildings". Don't change the topic to something irrelevant to the discussion since we both accept it, you made a stupid mistake. Own it.
Of course China supports fentanyl, because Americans are dumb and degenerate enough to buy this Chinese export. Actually, Americans now are getting too poor to afford fentanyl, they have to cut it with horse tranquilizer (tranq) which is a zombie drug that dissolves your skin and is worse than even krokodil. Below is a livestream of Kensington in Philadelphia, a popular drug dealing area. This is modern America.
Sorry I'm not Chinese, to complain about history of genocide, corruption and nepotism.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2CjLFa7W81ICCP is a perfect example of how communism is a failed ideology and economic model.
It hasn't worked and it will never work, it goes against human nature itself and every corrupt socialist/communist country is a testament to that.
Here's your own graph from the top of this page.

1699181543236.png
>CCP bad!
>posts graph showing rapid CCP-led economic growth
L毛
 
Absolutely none of which was under contention (since I agree with some of it) or relevant to the argument. We were arguing that the USSR was a more equal society with less gap between rich and poor (Gini coefficient) than the US and most of Europe, remember? You don't know what any of that actually means in practice so you just sperg out about communism again.
Gini index is a number on paper when millions escape inequity and police. Everyone was fucked equally unless you were corrupt or high official. Statistics don't reflect reality. Developed countries had higher wages, purchasing power and didn't have to wait in state managed waiting lines.

Trumpeting Gini index as fact in attempt to prove that USSR is equal is comparable how Nice socialism and communism work on paper and Marxist based countries are more equal than capitalist countries (to which Soviet defected)
No, answer the question. Why is government regulation be it Japanese, Scandinavian, or American (Wilson/FDR style) somehow free market? There's a reason everything from the Fed to the EPA to FDR's banking acts has been labeled communism (and I'm sure the same occurred in foreign countries when they introduced their equivalent) and that's because they're blatantly anti-free market and in many cases were introduced or promoted by literal socialists like Upton Sinclair, Clement Attlee, etc.
I guess capitalist regulations don't excist these are set in place to prevent complete anarchy, fairness ,preserve nature, ensure safety of goods, professions and many other sectors.
Bold claim from the guy who can't actually debate the points I'm contesting and instead go on random tangents sperging about how bad communism is in general i.e. your mountain of straw. I have no idea why you think I'm a communist when my entire point has always been that certain aspects about communism aren't bad even if as a whole communism is far less efficient than a mixed economic model. You don't seem very interested in debating the nuances of communism.
Gee adding more detail how corrupt USSR was corrupt and was spreading propaganda by KGB defector
Aral Sea disaster got worse after the collapse of the USSR. It was being managed much better under Soviet policies than Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan.
USSR starred the death spiral of Aral Sea, a irreversible process

Soviets managed to ensure destruction of a large waterbody, economy and livelihood post USSR isn't to blame
And yes, it is very much worth it to put dissidents on the wall or in labor camps. That's obvious because every society, communist or not, did that before liberalism took over in the 20th century. Even primitive tribes would make criminals/bad people into slaves or do shit like drown them.
Justifying low trust society barbaris, being primitive isn't exactly flattering especially when attempt to escape meant labor camps or summary execution. Last time I checked civilized world doesn't shoot their own citizens for leaving.
You literally just said they were "Tsar-era buildings".
I'll let pictures speak for themselves
main-qimg-f77f6181a698a3113a81e5150d3517f3-lq.jpeg


main-qimg-d7255fbd110d4ef258ffcabd56c47d5f-lq.jpeg
main-qimg-cc053b04cdd0b55981fbc0398dbda143-lq.jpeg
main-qimg-ad0d2912ff85d6de229e48221281a40a-lq.jpeg

Balkan countries are filled with these. Commie bloc are slums for low income brackets, criminals or alcoholics. I suggest leaving your student bug pod and travel (I assume that you can afford travel)

Of course China supports fentanyl, because Americans are dumb and degenerate enough to buy this Chinese export. Actually, Americans now are getting too poor to afford fentanyl, they have to cut it with horse tranquilizer (tranq) which is a zombie drug that dissolves your skin and is worse than even krokodil. Below is a livestream of Kensington in Philadelphia, a popular drug dealing area. This is modern America.
Incorrect ,ketamine (horse tranquilizer in veterinary medicine)
Opioids are cheap and plentiful, flood of fentanyl smuggled as precursors is plentiful and cheap. Point was CCP turns blind eye to triads that operate smuggling rings that target enemy nations. Targeting the people on benefits either with drugs or convincing brainlets that communism works. Both are popular with third world.

Either way you missed the point so hard it broke sound barriers
>CCP bad!
>posts graph showing rapid CCP-led economic growth
It's GDP per Capita China is leading in low income, communism wins!
Graph in question
World map GDP by Capita by country
China is at 71 and it'll worsen.

Centralised economy at work.
 
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Gini index is a number on paper when millions escape inequity and police. Everyone was fucked equally unless you were corrupt or high official. Statistics don't reflect reality. Developed countries had higher wages, purchasing power and didn't have to wait in state managed waiting lines.

Trumpeting Gini index as fact in attempt to prove that USSR is equal is comparable how Nice socialism and communism work on paper and Marxist based countries are more equal than capitalist countries (to which Soviet defected)
The thing is the Soviet Union was a developing nation, just like Russia was before 1917. It was just a more developed and especially more evenly developed nation than Russia. Millions of people objectively did escape inequality as I have proven--the fact that inequality still existed (which I never denied) doesn't change anything. Communism is not good at generating wealth, but it is very good at spreading wealth around. That's what the example of the Gini coefficient demonstrates. The state of Kerala in India is a great example, where was run by communists for several decades. It has a very high literacy rate, highest human development rate, and yes, among the lowest rates of designated shitting streets in India. A disproportionate number of Indian doctors and engineers in the West come from there.
I guess capitalist regulations don't excist these are set in place to prevent complete anarchy, fairness ,preserve nature, ensure safety of goods, professions and many other sectors.
You're right, it sure doesn't exist, because government regulations are not capitalism and "regulatory capitalism" is a neologism that appears to have been created by neoliberal types in the 1980s. Wow, creating a bunch of do-nothing bureaucratic positions to "regulate" things, sure is totally different than communist bureaucracy. Now go on, praise the architects of this sort of capitalism like FDR and Bill Clinton or its modern proponents like Joe Biden.
Gee adding more detail how corrupt USSR was corrupt and was spreading propaganda by KGB defector
Yes, and it's irrelevant to the topic at hand (the nuances of communism) and my specific points. Don't dodge the question, please tell me why you think I'm a communist so I can mock you.
USSR starred the death spiral of Aral Sea, a irreversible process

Soviets managed to ensure destruction of a large waterbody, economy and livelihood post USSR isn't to blame
Objectively false by looking at satellite photos. Uzbekistan which focuses on cotton exports has no Aral Sea. Kazakhstan with a more diverse economy has an Aral Sea. The Aral Sea does not exist in Uzbekistan because Islam Karimov was far more corrupt than the Communist Party rule was, did not get subsidies from Moscow to maintain the irrigation canals (meaning they became less efficient), and increased cotton production to give his nation an export.
Balkan countries are filled with these. Commie bloc are slums for low income brackets, criminals or alcoholics. I suggest leaving your student bug pod and travel (I assume that you can afford travel)
And you are objectively wrong since commieblocks were built in large numbers to absorb the growing urban population. Population of Belgrade for instance when from 400K in 1948 to 900K by 1971. Not to mention you contradict yourself since you imply most people in communism are in a low income bracket!

BTW wanna see what era most of the houses in Garfield Park, Kensington, or all the nice parts of Detroit or Baltimore were built?
Incorrect ,ketamine (horse tranquilizer in veterinary medicine)
Opioids are cheap and plentiful, flood of fentanyl smuggled as precursors is plentiful and cheap. Point was CCP turns blind eye to triads that operate smuggling rings that target enemy nations. Targeting the people on benefits either with drugs or convincing brainlets that communism works. Both are popular with third world.

Either way you missed the point so hard it broke sound barriers
Tranq is xylazine, retard. If America weren't such a shithole nation, in no small part due to "regulatory capitalism" having created a parasite class of bureaucrats and managers, the Chinese would have totally failed in spreading fentanyl here. Yes, it is awful what China is doing, but it's part of the reason why China is such a dangerous threat to the United States (almost 16 times as many people overdose in the US as China), something you and your fellow neocons tend to downplay and deny.
It's GDP per Capita China is leading in low income, communism wins!
Graph in question
World map GDP by Capita by country
China is at 71 and it'll worsen.

Centralised economy at work.
Completely irrelevant to the point. China was one of the poorest nations in the world from 1800-1970 and now they are the second most powerful nation on the planet. They far outperformed India who was in a similar condition. Your own stats prove it.
 
Objectively false by looking at satellite photos. Uzbekistan which focuses on cotton exports has no Aral Sea. Kazakhstan with a more diverse economy has an Aral Sea. The Aral Sea does not exist in Uzbekistan because Islam Karimov was far more corrupt than the Communist Party rule was, did not get subsidies from Moscow to maintain the irrigation canals (meaning they became less efficient), and increased cotton production to give his nation an export.
The Aral Sea started shrinking because the Soviets forced the entire area to become one gigantic cotton plantation. The irrigation canals were already poorly built and leaking large amounts of water well before the collapse of the USSR. There were no real efforts made to address this problem during the Soviet era and mismanagement after its collapse just made it worse until it passed the point of no return.

The negative health effects of the cotton monoculture in the USSR are nothing short of staggering. This is one part of that country's history that is indefensible because it was just so short-sighted and ignorant.
 
Lthing is the Soviet Union was a developing nation, just like Russia was before 1917. It was just a more developed and especially more evenly developed nation than Russia. Millions of people objectively did escape inequality as I have proven--the fact that inequality still existed (which I never denied) doesn't change anything. Communism is not good at generating wealth, but it is very good at spreading wealth around. That's what the example of the Gini coefficient demonstrates. The state of Kerala in India is a great example, where was run by communists for several decades. It has a very high literacy rate, highest human development rate, and yes, among the lowest rates of designated shitting streets in India.
Equality when everyone is lagging behind bigger states Average wage is 490 USD per month low end is 103 usd for reference poverty in US is below 14k annually. I don't know about you annual guaranteed of 4,409 USD is just grand 1,300 for low income bracket. Communism is redefining what is poverty. Oh not to forget social stability

Corruption and support of Hamas is part and parcel of commie puppet state

Riots more chimpouts from Marxists
You're right, it sure doesn't exist, because government regulations are not capitalism and "regulatory capitalism" is a neologism that appears to have been created by neoliberal types in the 1980s. Wow, creating a bunch of do-nothing bureaucratic positions to "regulate" things, sure is totally different than communist bureaucracy. Now go on, praise the architects of this sort of capitalism like FDR and Bill Clinton or its modern proponents like Joe Biden.

False equivalence at work, regulatory capitalism evolved into multiple branches over time. Setting such regulations, providing incentives to workers instead of out dictating what they will to as state dictates, furthermore your paper highlights private regulatory and establishments which influenced government not to intervene. Your point boils down to semantics and hatred towards liberalism, good job doing so point. Scream more about Joe Biden or Clinton, please.
Yes, and it's irrelevant to the topic at hand (the nuances of communism) and my specific points. Don't dodge the question, please tell me why you think I'm a communist so I can mock you.
You're a college student with useless bachelors degree in history, you have burning hatred for liberals and conservatives alike and hatred towards Americans in general, implying homeless camps represent entire united states
and repeatedly call it a "poor shit hole" despite being most powerful economy (Even under dementia patient Biden and recession). It's safe to deduce that you are self loathing debt slave reactionary who spews communist lingo whenever possible. You never achieved anything meaningful in yourself life. You behave and speak like economically left and lean culturally right (In your now deleted "communism is more culturally conservative than conservative" thread). Playing devil's advocate to compensate for your lack of achievements and life experience (It's ironic that you keep using anime pfps and bring up trump when you simp for a ideology that consider both degenerate in non reformist Connie cesspools). I'll highlight your statements below
Completely irrelevant to the point. China was one of the poorest nations in the world from 1800-1970 and now they are the second most powerful nation on the planet. They far outperformed India who was in a similar condition. Your own stats prove it.
Ethiopia tier wages are wonderful
Mao's successors admitted that Mao fucked up when Mao kicked the bucket in 1979
CCP isn't the economic powerhouse, reformers and opening up China brought unseen levels of growth. That out of the way China isn't looking now isn't it? If it wasn't for sugar daddy USSR (which CCP declared enemies later) and Kissinger helping opening up China and Nixon sending food aid.

Today poverty, homelessness, low birth rates, backwards centralised economic model that bankrupted multiple companies, Chinese people well under income below Europe and US, and redefining what classifies as poor. Xi's too

Tranq is xylazine, retard. If America weren't such a shithole nation, in no small part due to "regulatory capitalism" having created a parasite class of bureaucrats and managers, the Chinese would have totally failed in spreading fentanyl here. Yes, it is awful what China is doing, but it's part of the reason why China is such a dangerous threat to the United States (almost 16 times as many people overdose in the US as China), something you and your fellow neocons tend to downplay and deny.
Sorry it's still same cheap Fentanyl with something little extra Since you aren't white you can't grasp concept of that tent cities and shithole states do not represent entirety of America, if you paid any attention I'm not American, their presidents and policies aren't mine, neoconservatives are American phenomenon and for some reason you can't stop your obsession about Americans.
Objectively false by looking at satellite photos. Uzbekistan which focuses on cotton exports has no Aral Sea. Kazakhstan with a more diverse economy has an Aral Sea. The Aral Sea does not exist in Uzbekistan because Islam Karimov was far more corrupt than the Communist Party rule was, did not get subsidies from Moscow to maintain the irrigation canals (meaning they became less efficient), and increased cotton production to give his nation an export.
Soviets knew this from 1950s, they started this Lysenko tier process and it was irreversible
Satellite leaves important milestones from 70s and 80s. You can't shift blame to post Soviet states that had to make due with devestation
More details

This isn't really surprising since you are first ones to go on full Holomdomor denial, Soviets fucked up.. Again.
 
Equality when everyone is lagging behind bigger states Average wage is 490 USD per month low end is 103 usd for reference poverty in US is below 14k annually. I don't know about you annual guaranteed of 4,409 USD is just grand 1,300 for low income bracket. Communism is redefining what is poverty. Oh not to forget social stability

Corruption and support of Hamas is part and parcel of commie puppet state
Poverty in India =/= Poverty in the US (or any other developed country). In any case, the actual statistics say you're wrong given Kerala has the highest HDI in India, some of the highest health indicators in India, and even in terms of wage is still middling in terms of things. Trying to compare it to the US is just silly, even the top scientists in India's space program only make 900 USD/month (that's why they all come here). No redefinitions necessary when it's clear from history that communism is simply an alternative (and mostly inferior) path a developing nation can take.
False equivalence at work, regulatory capitalism evolved into multiple branches over time. Setting such regulations, providing incentives to workers instead of out dictating what they will to as state dictates, furthermore your paper highlights private regulatory and establishments which influenced government not to intervene. Your point boils down to semantics and hatred towards liberalism, good job doing so point. Scream more about Joe Biden or Clinton, please.
Nothing about it is a false equivalence. To do anything in the US requires going through endless bureaucracy and getting a loicence for it. You know, just like a communist country. This bureaucracy is staffed with people whose job is to get in the way of productive people and often are hired based on race or gender (unlike a communist country where the bureaucracy is based on being a party member). Europe is even worse since they add the additional layer of the European Union. You are simping for the most establishment thing in existence, are you sure you didn't vote for Biden?
You're a college student with useless bachelors degree in history, you have burning hatred for liberals and conservatives alike and hatred towards Americans in general, implying homeless camps represent entire united states
and repeatedly call it a "poor shit hole" despite being most powerful economy (Even under dementia patient Biden and recession). It's safe to deduce that you are self loathing debt slave reactionary who spews communist lingo whenever possible. You never achieved anything meaningful in yourself life. You behave and speak like economically left and lean culturally right (In your now deleted "communism is more culturally conservative than conservative" thread). Playing devil's advocate to compensate for your lack of achievements and life experience (It's ironic that you keep using anime pfps and bring up trump when you simp for a ideology that consider both degenerate in non reformist Connie cesspools). I'll highlight your statements below
Given the quality of your posts on China, I think it's perfectly fair to say that homeless camps represent the United Shitholes of America, which is no longer the most powerful economy (China is, no matter all the kvetching you do). The US is closer to Brazil or South Africa than the great country it used to be. Blame this on the "regulatory capitalism" you think is such an integral part of the free market despite being more or less the same Chinese-style nonsense you think is the worst thing ever.
Today poverty, homelessness, low birth rates, backwards centralised economic model that bankrupted multiple companies, Chinese people well under income below Europe and US, and redefining what classifies as poor. Xi's too
I love how you think China is so uniquely bad when every single one of these points applies to the US FAR more so. Like at least the people being born in China are actually Chinese, in the US almost half the babies born now are either black or Hispanic. A nation ran by D'Quandre Jones and Paco Rodriguez simply can't compete.
The Aral Sea started shrinking because the Soviets forced the entire area to become one gigantic cotton plantation. The irrigation canals were already poorly built and leaking large amounts of water well before the collapse of the USSR. There were no real efforts made to address this problem during the Soviet era and mismanagement after its collapse just made it worse until it passed the point of no return.

The negative health effects of the cotton monoculture in the USSR are nothing short of staggering. This is one part of that country's history that is indefensible because it was just so short-sighted and ignorant.
You even mentioned it yourself. Under the USSR it was very much sustainable because they had money to maintain it and weren't trying to maintain an economy based almost entirely on cotton like Uzbekistan was. There's a lot to criticize about the Aral Sea disaster, but ultimately the cotton project was no different than the great aqueducts and canals of California.
Soviets knew this from 1950s, they started this Lysenko tier process and it was irreversible
Satellite leaves important milestones from 70s and 80s. You can't shift blame to post Soviet states that had to make due with devestation
More details
That's not even what the article says, you are really bad at this. Has nothing to do with "Lysenko" either (you probably don't even know who he is other than "communist with bad policies). In the end the cotton farms in the region was a good project but poorly implemented that when the Soviet Union collapsed turned into a true disaster.
This isn't really surprising since you are first ones to go on full Holomdomor denial, Soviets fucked up.. Again.
I'm not a Holodomor denier because there is no such thing as the "Holodomor". I accept the historical record that there was a famine in the early 1930s in the Soviet Union due to the failures of collectivization, one in which Stalin sent grain to the Ukrainian SSR to alleviate.
 
Poverty in India =/= Poverty in the US (or any other developed country). In any case, the actual statistics say you're wrong given Kerala has the highest HDI in India, some of the highest health indicators in India, and even in terms of wage is still middling in terms of things. Trying to compare it to the US is just silly, even the top scientists in India's space program only make 900 USD/month (that's why they all come here). No redefinitions necessary when it's clear from history that communism is simply an alternative (and mostly inferior) path a developing nation can take.
So you agree that shit wages drive low income workers in high trust society to escape low living standards and failing communist corruption, good you're learning.
Europe is even worse since they add the additional layer of the European Union. You are simping for the most establishment thing in existence, are you sure you didn't vote for Biden?
Complete and utter anarchy is much better option then, who needs stable governments anyway? - Is your stance, yes or no?
the quality of your posts on China, I think it's perfectly fair to say that homeless camps represent the United Shitholes of America, which is no longer the most powerful economy (China is, no matter all the kvetching you do). The US is closer to Brazil or South Africa
Difference being economy of China is collapsing and society is regressing to Maoism+: purging boogaloo! Communism failed China and hard which is why you pussied out mega thread, you can't stand being laughed and simp authotarian regimes that would you send to labor camps. US is nowhere near Brazil or south African levels (Brazil is run by Venezuela tier commies, you should love the place since it's in BRICS)
Hello little exchange student how do you like to live in debt and POTUS of choice?
I'm not a Holodomor denier because there is no such thing as the "Holodomor". I accept the historical record that there was a famine in the early 1930s in the Soviet Union due to the failures of collectivization, one in which Stalin sent grain to the Ukrainian SSR to alleviate.
Citations needed on your part
That's not even what the article says, you are really bad at this. Has nothing to do with "Lysenko" either (you probably don't even know who he is other than "communist with bad policies). In the end the cotton farms in the region was a good project but poorly implemented that when the Soviet Union collapsed turned into a true disaster
Local bachelor doesn't understand juxtaposition, article shows clear progression and point of no return which Soviet caused like other man made disaster Chernobyl.

Every communist system failed, keeps people in poverty and trapped in corruption and propaganda. Literal bugman mentality
 
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So you agree that shit wages drive low income workers in high trust society to escape low living standards and failing communist corruption, good you're learning.
That's like saying capitalism is inherently a failure because the US is full of people from Guatemala, a capitalist country which has elected mostly conservative governments in the past 20 years. A developed country is always going to be more attractive than a developing country for immigration. Comparing developing nations to developed nations is not a fair comparison, especially since my point has always been simply that communism does some things better than capitalism.
Complete and utter anarchy is much better option then, who needs stable governments anyway? - Is your stance, yes or no?
Nope, that's not my stance. Here's a good overview of why government regulation is incompatible with a truly free market. I'm going to trust people who actually advocate the free market like Mises and Rothbard instead of neoliberal simps who claim they are AKSHUALLY capitalists (they aren't). Mises and Rothbard linked their economic views to classical liberalism which is correct since an actually free market without government intervention will look like the Guilded Age where corporations get away with as much shit as they possibly can. Remember, Karl Marx wrote in the Communist Manifesto many things which were eventually established in the US--unsurprisingly Marx was a big fan of Lincoln (who expanded government power).
Difference being economy of China is collapsing and society is regressing to Maoism+: purging boogaloo! Communism failed China and hard which is why you pussied out mega thread, you can't stand being laughed and simp authotarian regimes that would you send to labor camps. US is nowhere near Brazil or south African levels (Brazil is run by Venezuela tier commies, you should love the place since it's in BRICS)
Because the thread is boring and you've nothing to offer but endless gish gallops and avoiding the topic. You've never once provided proof the economy of China is "collapsing" any worse than the economies of the rest of the world and all you can do is scream CHINA LIES ABOUT GDP as if the United States/all countries don't do exactly the same thing.
Already proved in this post with evidence such as Stalin providing aid to Ukraine (something Hitler never did when he created famines). Claiming there ever was a specific thing as the Holodomor is like saying that FDR was genociding Oklahomans during the Dust Bowl. Yes, there was a famine in Ukraine (like there was in southern Russia, Kazakhstan, and Belarus), and people died. Meanwhile Ukrainians routinely held high-ranking posts in the party and military, in stark contrast to an actually genocidal country like Nazi Germany where you could count the number of prominent Jews on one hand (i.e. Erhard Milch and Emil Maurice), all of whom officially denied their Jewish ancestry.
Local bachelor doesn't understand juxtaposition, article shows clear progression and point of no return which Soviet caused like other man made disaster Chernobyl.

Every communist system failed, keeps people in poverty and trapped in corruption and propaganda. Literal bugman mentality
There was never a 'point of no return" because Kazakhstan literally restored a chunk of the Aral Sea just a few years ago. Claiming the Aral Sea was always some horrible, awful disaster is like claiming that California is a disaster because the rivers and bays are full of toxins and floods are caused by the ground subsiding in places and if the government isn't spending a fuckton of money will cause Aral Sea-tier shit (and already has, ever hear of Owens Lake?). Add science to another subject you clearly have no knowledge on.
 
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