Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

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Forsaken Wanderer said:
@WelperHelper99 Kind words but I don't know what to do with my life. What is there even to do anymore? Practically speaking life revolves around work,chores and sleep, and then you find something to entertain you on a Saturday night. Are you saying that if you could remove all fears and anxiety and almost induce a kind of madness then you could live for the moment and find enjoyment in the small things in life?

How are you not bothered by what is going on around you?

We are atomized beings. Our connection to our ethnicity, culture, country, mythology, and history has been severed and we are adrift in a meaningless void. Perhaps reconnecting those links would fix a lot of incels.
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Atheism is a big part of the machine working against you. It makes man dependent on the political circumstances of his own lifetime, and enslaves him to matter. Only slaves and middle-managers are atheist. The guys at the top are all some flavor of gnostic or luciferian. I found Orthodoxy and a real community there, but you'll have to go through your own search. I think you'll wind up in the same place but it won't work if you're not honestly convinced that what you find is true.

Everyone saying "just stick your head in the sand like an ostrich, bro" is lying to themselves. You can't bury the evil of the time we live in. It'll show back up as open sores all over your body. This is why normalfags are all going insane. You can only survive if you're honest about the reality of what's happening, but have hope beyond the material conditions of this world. Real hope, beyond cope. That's when a normal (or at least human in some way) life becomes possible, even in this environment.

I've attached a pdf of a short essay that can be helpful in this regard. It contains an iron-clad logical proof of God (not an "unmoved mover" argument, which would just as easily "prove" the god of freemasonry or Islam), with a short history of the degeneration of autonomous Western epistemology.
 

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@California Newt An interesting essay. Didn't Nietzsche write about the western man replacing god with science. Science itself has become a false god of sorts that requires faith to believe in. Believe in the ritual of sitting and eating, with faith the "pandemic" categorized coof can't get you in this position. Worship the 151 genders and they shall materialize.

Mankind needs something to worship and as Christianity turns to dust the masses worship idols and ideologies. 15 years ago I used to watch Thunderf00t and all of those atheist types and laugh at the bible men and their "prove god isn't real" argumentative style. Now after having followed the fall of the west for 15 years I know with certainty that pure evil exists and it has a hold on this world. I also see how entwined god is with the culture and rise of all western civilizations.

Personally though I don't believe in anything at all because I don't think it matters. I know good and evil exist, I know there are demons in some form or another, I know there is such a thing as a soul because I've seen so many of the soulless, and I know a great evil has power over the material world now. When I look inwardly and at my own existence and the grey haze of nothingness that it is I find it hard to want anything but for it all to be over, I'm just over it all.

But further than that my life feels like purgatory or hell. I think about the possibility of me going to hell when I die because I didn't become a man of faith and I think about how uncreative hot pokers as an eternal punishment would be, no, the perfect damnation for me would be to force me to live my life forever. Eternal damnation is infinite so it's not like there is any rush to harvest the juiciest suffering. So if that is potentially what the devil would do to me, how can I prove that I am not already damned and that this is hell.

Or if it is clinical depression then truly there is no point to life without positive mental feedback from the things that you do minute by minute. If you get nothing then you are just doing a series of pointless steps ad nauseam, the same steps day after day for absolutely no reason. You just do things because you feel you have to. I don't think going to church will stop life being a pointless groundhog day on endless loop.
 
@Forsaken Wanderer I don't understand:

"Personally though I don't believe in anything at all because I don't think it matters. I know good and evil exist, I know there are demons in some form or another, I know there is such a thing as a soul because I've seen so many of the soulless, and I know a great evil has power over the material world now."

You say you don't believe in anything, then listed four things that you believe in.

"I don't think going to church will stop life being a pointless groundhog day on endless loop."

That's because you're unfamiliar with what's involved beyond the externals of "going to church".

This is from an 8th century saint who predates the schism. The first chunk of it explains who and what the God is we worship. The essence/energies distinction completes the apologetic in "The Contingency of Knowledge and Revelatory Theism", as it explains how a God can be both transcendent and immanent.

Here's some PDFs:

Fr. Seraphim Rose: his Life and Works is a good overview of what the religion is about in practice (especially in the United States). The kind of boredom you describe is a subject discussed in the chapter "Forming Young Souls". I'd recommend this one first. He converted under similar conditions as many today, during the 60s counter-culture. This also goes into the life of St. John of Shanghai and San Fransisco.

C.S. Lewis isn't Orthodox, but "the four loves" is very good. I think that he makes too sharp a distinction between philia and eros, but I can see why he did it.

The one by Archbishop Averky Taushev, The Struggle for Virtue. Asceticism in a Modern Secular Society, is about the practice in the world (as opposed to in a monastery). This is a more explicit run-down of what the life is ideally about.

There's meaning out there if you're willing to look for it. Not saying it's gonna be easy or pleasant all of the time, but it's out there.
 
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California Newt said:
There's meaning out there if you're willing to look for it. Not saying it's gonna be easy or pleasant all of the time, but it's out there.
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I get the sense that a lot of people don't want to actually try and reach for meaning because they know subconsciously that it would require them to change and actually put constraints on their behavior, such as not watching porn. It's easier to play pretend at being an edgy nihilist so you never have to do anything hard and can keep wallowing in a victim mindset.
 
gang weeder said:
I get the sense that a lot of people don't want to actually try and reach for meaning because they know subconsciously that it would require them to change and actually put constraints on their behavior, such as not watching porn. It's easier to play pretend at being an edgy nihilist so you never have to do anything hard and can keep wallowing in a victim mindset.
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While that can be true, especially if letting go of crutches means confronting a lot of pain, there are many people who haven't been given the vocabulary and conceptual frameworks necessary to understand what to replace that stuff with. They're told that removing it is carving out a part of your soul (this is a major tool of our collective slavery). I think that's what @Forsaken Wanderer is expressing—what he's saying is that even if intellectually you become genuinely convinced of a system of meaning, that alone isn't enough to live on: you also need a way of life that's worth living.

The scenario he's describing is the emptiness of church-worldliness divorced from ascesis. It's a very real danger. It's a known danger, though, and one that there are known solutions to.

I hate to double-post, but my edit took too long and I passed the time limit by an hour.

I'm not qualified to give advice at all, but I might be able to add some vocabulary that @Forsaken Wanderer might find helpful per his question/statement.
@Forsaken Wanderer the purpose of the practice is to become God-filled. This is done through communion (on the physical side), and through athletic struggle for the virtues (on the spiritual side). I mean "athletic" in the same sense as weight-lifting; it's always about staying on the boundary of the limits of your strength. If you push too far, you injure yourself.

This principle of athleticism is also where all simple pleasure in life is, when you think about it: whether in exercise, sex, food, music, or anything else, pleasure is really an oscillation between tension and release; pleasure is maximized at the peak of our capacity to bear tension, and at the subsequent catharsis of the release that follows. What changes after you brush up against your limits? They shift—you gain the ability to bear more weight. In the traditional Christian ascetic practice, you bear God more fully.

But why would you want to do this, outside of the pleasures of tension and release which are identical for anything? Why bear God?

Beauty is symbolic of virtue. This can even be understood in a secular sense: if something you see aesthetically moves your soul, then obviously your soul perceives an analogical relationship between that thing and something within your soul. The lion tends to work as a symbol of courage, for example.

We understand the authentic virtues to be in a real sense literally divine: the virtues are uncreated energies (operations) of God. They are God in the same sense that your own enegizing/operation is you (although not your essence). They come from your essence, but are still you and reveal you: take a carpenter's energy/operation of building a house, for example—there's the essence of the carpenter (him in himself), his energy (building the house), and the effect (the house).

The point here is that there is no such thing as impersonal beauty, as there are no such things as impersonal virtues. How could something impersonal be virtuous? Persons have virtues, and all virtues are really personal aspects of God. Every deep, true desire of the human soul is a desire to bear God in oneself; He is the one who the soul loves.

When you ask God for courage, you're not asking for an impersonal, abstract "courage": you're saying "give me You; You who I've known in the bottom of my soul since before I was born". Christ, who is the Truth incarnate, said to Pilate: "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice" (John 18:37). There's this idea that Jesus is a guy that people thought was God because He did a lot of miracles and fulfilled a lot of prophecies—that's definitely part of it, but there's a more important reason: even if they couldn't articulate it, and even if they fought it, they recognized Him.

Wrapping this up, now. "Theosis", the goal of Orthodoxy, is to become maximally filled with God; that doesn't mean, though, that it's all dreary joylessness until you get there. If you're in the gym and put up that poster of Arnold, but are miserable every day that you aren't jacked enough yet to star in "Conan the Barbarian" like he did, you're going to quit. You have to love the process: you have to love the feel of the texture of the weight on your muscles—chewing it and consuming it in the same way that your mouth does food, or your legs a landscape. Even if in this life it's accompanied by pain, there's an immediate and visceral reality of contact with what it is you're after. Everyone feels like Arnold after they've gone to failure on a lift.

I am in no way qualified to give any kind of advice, but that's the concept as I understand it.
 
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Forsaken Wanderer said:
I would like to but the feeling of being trapped never goes away. I can try and achieve something today but tomorrow it's back to the daily grind that will continue for decades more. The suicide rate is climbing still.
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Any semblance of real depression I had went out the window when my company transferred me to branches in the third world. Trust me, there's nothing more soul crushing than being born on a shit country and being aware of that, 'cause some of the people there were so ignorant they thought it was the same all over. I seen it first hand, good people whose lives will really never improve because they are stuck in a shithole where laws are just words on paper. No don't start with "iTs tHe sAme hEre" no its not, you have no idea how bad it gets, me and my colleagues we had to be escorted by armed guards everywhere, and we weren't VIPs or anything is just the way things are there. And when you speak to the people there its no "woe-is-me I cry everytim" bullshit, its just bleak, a bleak existence where every day is a fight, a struggle, every day going out for work not knowing if some piece of shit is going to shot you for your wallet full of worthless pesos. And they can't leave because they can't get any papers and refuse to break the laws of another country, again decent people not like the absolute shit we get across the border every day, many of them criminals escaping the law, all entering illegally and then demanding citizenship and gibs.

Yeah I know what you're thinking, "some people have it worse!"=bullshit, used to think the same but its different when you actually see how bad human misery can get.
Butterschmalz said:
How about being happy with her?

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I don't mind the looks but if you're a woman and end up in jail instead of community service or some other bullshit it means you're crazy and dangerous, hard pass.
 
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cybertoaster said:
Any semblance of real depression I had went out the window when my company transferred me to branches on the third world. Trust me, there's nothing more soul crushing than being born on a shit country and being aware of that, 'cause some of the people there were so ignorant they thought it was the same all over.
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Yeah but people in 3rd world countries are dumber, so they don't have the same capacity for existential despair.

Also the safety of the modern west goes hand in hand with dissolution of what traditionally provided a spiritual or social anchor. How can life in these countries actually be that much worse, without them all simply offing themselves or being unable to function? Obviously there's something making up for it. They've at least got something that has meaning or something to aspire to, or they wouldn't keep going.
Idk, I suspect maybe their life sucks, but at least it sucks together vs. in the west where for people who are struggling their life sucks while they live in a pod among strangers and get ministered to by faceless corporations and entities that would rather own, moderate, and preferably monetize every single avenue through which people can connect.

There's more humans need to live than just the immediate material, and in that realm the first world is sorely lacking.
 
Ultrapenguin said:
Yeah but people in 3rd world countries are dumber, so they don't have the same capacity for existential despair.
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On average they are definitely less educated but the people I worked with there were way above the average redneck, even the average office drone or basic bitch here, and they weren't some kind of local elites just the middle class from over there which have less money than the average blue collar wagie here. You forget we get the absolute worst scum of those countries because again those with education don't want to come here as illegals, but we only let illegals in.
Ultrapenguin said:
I suspect maybe their life sucks, but at least it sucks together
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Nah the social disintegration there is 100x worse than here, community ends where family does and sometimes that's just immediate family. We're actually going to shit because we're looking more like them in this aspect, which is partially why those countries went to shit and why they never get out of the shithole.
Ultrapenguin said:
They've at least got something that has meaning or something to aspire to, or they wouldn't keep going.
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Nah the only thing keeping most out of suicide was that their families would be ostracized, that or superstition.

BTW those low suicide numbers for third world countries? all fake, suicide is huge in those countries, they just list them as accidents partially because of stigma but also because it makes the country look bad.
Ultrapenguin said:
Obviously there's something making up for it.
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What I saw is that they have so little that anything even things we take for granted is a huge boost for them and their morale. Reminded me of some stories from the great depression, people celebrating because they were able to afford butter that day and such. But deaths from despairs are awfully common there, the difference is that they just don't talk about it or report it at all, you only find out when you ask about it.
Ultrapenguin said:
and in that realm the first world is sorely lacking.
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Gonna give me the hippie shit about these people being more connected to nature and all that?

They aren't.
 
cybertoaster said:
Yeah I know what you're thinking, "some people have it worse!"=bullshit, used to think the same but its different when you actually see how bad human misery can get.
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Acknowledging that you're dodging the obvious question doesn't mean you're not dodging the obvious question. How does the fact that other people have it worse mean you or I ought to be happy?

If anything, it seems like it leads to the conclusion that we're in an extremely unlikely fortunate, privileged position. This is as good as it gets, so if you're not terribly thrilled with it, you're fucked.
 
Ibanez RG 350EX said:
How does the fact that other people have it worse mean you or I ought to be happy?
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The point is that wasn't the point but most people just think those stories mean you shouldn't complain because somebody somewhere is doing worse than you, again not the point.
 
Ibanez RG 350EX said:
Acknowledging that you're dodging the obvious question doesn't mean you're not dodging the obvious question. How does the fact that other people have it worse mean you or I ought to be happy?

If anything, it seems like it leads to the conclusion that we're in an extremely unlikely fortunate, privileged position. This is as good as it gets, so if you're not terribly thrilled with it, you're fucked.
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Respectfully Disagree, But I Still Love You

See, back in the days when men were men and sheep were nervous, there was this guy name Harry Harlow. Harlow was a shrink who conducted wildly unethical experiments on monkeys, especially related to maternal attachment. One that's always stuck in my mind was the cloth mother and the wire mother. Harlow set up two simulated monkey mothers, one made out of rough wire that had food, and one made out of soft, warm cloth that had no food. Then he put a baby monkey in the cage to see which mother it preferred. Almost universally, monkeys went to the cloth mother. They valued touch and physical comfort over food.

Now humans aren't rhesus monkeys, of course. But still. Hell, it may be WORSE for us. People often say "well, you live in a rich country, so even if you're lonely you're better off than the poor starving kids in Africa". That may not actually be true.
 
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I think the "it could be worse" thing isn't a particularly great argument and doesn't make people feel a whole lot better. A dude stuck a wheel chair in the west is better off than a dude stuck in a wheelchair in a brazilian favela but I think most would admit the wheel chair bound guy in the west still has a pretty crap life.
 
Cyclonus said:
Stop calling women who enjoy having casual sex sluts (by pointing out to men that it would make it a hell of a lot easier to get laid)
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No. It is self-destructive behavior for women to behave like whores, both to the women being tricked into thinking casual sex is fulfilling and to society at large. When women get promiscuous they stop sleeping with average men who would build a life with them and focus on hunting down Chad. Then they meet Chad and are put in a situation where they have to do a bunch of degrading things they don't really enjoy or "lose" Chad. The women they are competing with will do the degrading things, so they have to keep up. In reality the top few guys just pass the top half of women around, never commit to them because why should they, and end up creating bitter man-hating single mothers abound.

This is the onlyfans era and incels have it worse than ever.

Forsaken Wanderer said:
I don't think going to church will stop life being a pointless groundhog day on endless loop.
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Well, going to church introduces you to community. Being a member of a community helps you form attachments and bonds. Enriching the lives of the people you form bonds with leads to fulfillment and happiness. So going to church does indirectly stop life being a pointless groundhog day on endless loop.

California Newt said:
I'm not qualified to give advice at all, but I might be able to add some vocabulary that @Forsaken Wanderer might find helpful per his question/statement.
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I disagree. Your spoilered info really speaks to me and opened a lot of lines of thought in my mind. You are pretty good at describing these concepts.


Hyro said:
I think the "it could be worse" thing isn't a particularly great argument and doesn't make people feel a whole lot better. A dude stuck a wheel chair in the west is better off than a dude stuck in a wheelchair in a brazilian favela but I think most would admit the wheel chair bound guy in the west still has a pretty crap life.
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It's actually an excellent argument. The dude stuck in the wheelchair should consider that even if he is unhappy, rocking the boat and throwing out the system that provides the best of a bunch of shitty outcomes could land him in even worse positions. Also, if you have it the best you possibly can and you are still unhappy, you might want to re-evaluate your expectations. It's not healthy to have unreasonable expectations that never get fulfilled. A lot of bitter aging wine moms are learning this the hard way.
 
Netizennameless said:
if you have it the best you possibly can and you are still unhappy, you might want to re-evaluate your expectations. It's not healthy to have unreasonable expectations that never get fulfilled.
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What if I re-evaluate my expectation again and again and come to accept that my situation is actually pretty okay. And yet the bitterness still remained. How to deal with lingering bitterness, my fellow farmers?
 
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