💬 Off-Topic Tranny Biology - HRT Is Magic

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Athena Save Us! said:
Woof! I managed to find this document and skim through it. The sheer amount of sexism and pseudoscience dripping from it is enough to cause an aneurysm. All the way from trying to prove that there are enough intersex people to dismantle the argument that they're an exception to the rule, propping up neuro-sexist beliefs, appealing to authority, asking people to guess anime genders, and trying hard to prove that HRT is magic and totally changes their physiology, guyz - this document is never going to change anyone's mind unless they have subfreezing temp IQ.
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I assume it's an example of someone who doesn't actually believe in an objective reality writing in a way they think will convince people who do. Then utterly failing because they can't understand someone who thinks in a manner where there's an objective reality.

This stuff reminds me of when I used to read creationists try and argue that evolution wasn't real. The fatal flaw was they couldn't put themselves in the mindset of someone who wasn't religious and took things on faith. They'd be trying to discredit evolution by making comparisons of On Origin of Species being treated like a sacred document taken on faith. Which doesn't apply at all to why people know evolution is real.
 
Positron said:
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So a woman is in other words "Sexist stereotypes". Its funny how these people use that as a definition and then when you call them out by saying "So you think women who don't perform traditional feminine roles but still claim to be women aren't women?" they turn around and say no because they still identify as women and those roles are a part of their womanhood. If feminine roles can basically be anything that a person claims it to be then woman as a definition is basically meaningless and TIMs can't be a woman because that's just what they think society expects a woman to be.
 
Screamer_2 said:
I assume it's an example of someone who doesn't actually believe in an objective reality writing in a way they think will convince people who do. Then utterly failing because they can't understand someone who thinks in a manner where there's an objective reality.

This stuff reminds me of when I used to read creationists try and argue that evolution wasn't real. The fatal flaw was they couldn't put themselves in the mindset of someone who wasn't religious and took things on faith. They'd be trying to discredit evolution by making comparisons of On Origin of Species being treated like a sacred document taken on faith. Which doesn't apply at all to why people know evolution is real.
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That's why the best that trannies do is come up with insane scenarios to win your empathy, like, "What if you woke up tomorrow and found out that someone cast a spell to turn you female/male?"

1. That can't happen.

2. Even if it could, people would find it distressing, but not for the reason they think.

Jacques1194 said:
So a woman is in other words "Sexist stereotypes". Its funny how these people use that as a definition and then when you call them out by saying "So you think women who don't perform traditional feminine roles but still claim to be women aren't women?" they turn around and say no because they still identify as women and those roles are a part of their womanhood. If feminine roles can basically be anything that a person claims it to be then woman as a definition is basically meaningless and TIMs can't be a woman because that's just what they think society expects a woman to be.
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Yep. If they say a woman is an "adult human female", it means that 'woman' is a descriptive term, like saying someone has dark skin or green eyes, and has no direct impact on behavior or personality. That's no fun and they can't claim a special intersex condition. They have two other options: a.) woman is a series of behaviors that all true and honest women adhere to, or b.) it's just whatever you want it to be.

People laugh at option b, so a lot of them fall back on sexism.
 
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Answers.
1. You are a disembodied brain, not a person. To be a man or a woman you must be a person. You, as a brain in a jar, may very well be mistaken that you are still the person you once was, just as the Japanese soldier in the jungle of The Philippines in believing that WWII was still raging, but you'll be objectively wrong.
2. You are launching a Ship of Theseus argument. Suppose you are a man and you suffer from renal failure, and a female kidney is transplanted in you, are you a man or a woman? How about also replacing your heart with a woman's heart, your lungs with a woman's lungs, your liver with a woman's liver? Where is the point, if any, that you stop being a man and start being a woman? Ship of Theseus scenarios ultimately have no generally accepted resolution. I don't think the sub-questions (a) and (b) are of any relevance.
3. The scenario is not clear enough. What does "changing a biological male into a biological female" mean? If, because the writer mentioned "every last chromosome", I interpret it as "changing each and every cell's sex chromosome from XY to XX". then it sounds like a Ship of Theseus scenario like (2) ("What if I change just one of your cell from XY to XX? One hundred cells? One million cells? One trillion cells? Half your body's cells? Half your body's cells plus one? Every single cell but one? Literally every single cell?") but with an important difference: organ systems are developed in utero; changing the sex chromosome of the cells in the fully developed organ of a grown human will not change its structure and function. Your fully XX penis is still a penis; you are still a man.

So my answers -- and note my arguments are purely Biology based, no considerations for "psychological state" or "socialization" -- are:
1. No.
2. Undecidable.
3. No.
 
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Positron said:
Answers.
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Much simpler answer is this: Don't accept the premise of assholes. They are not asking out of a desire to discover truth, but out of a desire to frame any discussion in terms favourable to their position: that there is a distinction between body and mind and that "female brain in a male body" is a valid premise on which to found an argument.
 
Reposting this here since its considered tranny biology. I looked up my Kiwifarms' name I'm not shocked that I'm mentioned on another site for "Transphobia". It was for a post where I said that TIMs are delusional for thinking their neo vaginas are exactly like real ones.
Screenshot 2025-02-04 101220.png

Other comments saying "Science marches on!" and one day technology will make it to where no one can tell the difference between trans women and "cis" women.
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Asked this question before but still. What does it mean to be neurologically female/male? Even if these brain studies were correct the only thing it would prove is that masculine and feminine brains exist. What I mean is that if a woman has a masculine brain, it would mean that she's more likely to be interested in things that men traditionally did/do. This doesn't prove that she's a man trapped inside a woman's body. All that would prove is that she's more likely to be a GNC woman.
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Jacques1194 said:
Asked this question before but still. What does it mean to be neurologically female/male? Even if these brain studies were correct the only thing it would prove is that masculine and feminine brains exist. What I mean is that if a woman has a masculine brain, it would mean that she's more likely to be interested in things that men traditionally did/do. This doesn't prove that she's a man trapped inside a woman's body. All that would prove is that she's more likely to be a GNC woman.
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This is more or less the case. Men and women have brain differences in the same way they have personality and preference differences: there are lists of ~things~ you can use to guess whether a person on a piece of paper is male or female. Did you like playing with car toys growing up? Does your sex drive have a significant visual component? Are you more solutions-oriented than relationally-oriented? You're probably describing a man. Women can and have been one, two, or all three of these things, but it's statistically unlikely. Brain scans are similar. You can predict with some (much smaller) degree of accuracy whether someone is a man or woman based on where brain activity is hottest. My memory may be failing me, but I believe one of the major differences between the sexes is that women tend to have stronger connections between their hemispheres, whereas men have stronger intra-hemisphere connections. But if you're a woman and your brain hits all the masculine hotspots, and you like machines, the likelihood is certainly higher that you're a butch lesbian. There's zero chance you're "actually" a man. Ever the black and white thinking turbo-autists, trannies see the male indicators and think the dog with a high pitched bark and a bobbing head in a chicken costume *is* a chicken.
 
SomeSpook said:
Troon biology, in itself, is not based in reality. It has to defy everything that is known about basic human biology in order for troonism to exist. When you are being told that a man can be a woman or a woman can be a man by doing some kind of surgical procedure and HRT by "professionals" then something is wrong. These are not people you should trust. These are people who only exist to feed lies to you on a platter labeled "the truth." The truth is that the human body is not plug and play. You can't change your sex on a whim and call yourself the opposite sex because of some very experimental surgery that will never work. To do so is to break the laws of nature and spit in God's face.
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The real tragedy is that this even needs to be said, and that this is somehow a controversial thing to say.
 
Positron said:
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Answers.
1. You are a disembodied brain, not a person. To be a man or a woman you must be a person. You, as a brain in a jar, may very well be mistaken that you are still the person you once was, just as the Japanese soldier in the jungle of The Philippines in believing that WWII was still raging, but you'll be objectively wrong.
2. You are launching a Ship of Theseus argument. Suppose you are a man and you suffer from renal failure, and a female kidney is transplanted in you, are you a man or a woman? How about also replacing your heart with a woman's heart, your lungs with a woman's lungs, your liver with a woman's liver? Where is the point, if any, that you stop being a man and start being a woman? Ship of Theseus scenarios ultimately have no generally accepted resolution. I don't think the sub-questions (a) and (b) are of any relevance.
3. The scenario is not clear enough. What does "changing a biological male into a biological female" mean? If, because the writer mentioned "every last chromosome", I interpret it as "changing each and every cell's sex chromosome from XY to XX". then it sounds like a Ship of Theseus scenario like (2) ("What if I change just one of your cell from XY to XX? One hundred cells? One million cells? One trillion cells? Half your body's cells? Half your body's cells plus one? Every single cell but one? Literally every single cell?") but with an important difference: organ systems are developed in utero; changing the sex chromosome of the cells in the fully developed organ of a grown human will not change its structure and function. Your fully XX penis is still a penis; you are still a man.

So my answers -- and note my arguments are purely Biology based, no considerations for "psychological state" or "socialization" -- are:
1. No.
2. Undecidable.
3. No.
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I'll bite and answer these, too.

1. A brain in a jar is a person, but not a male or female person. You need a sexed body to be male or female.

2. You'd be the sex of whatever body you'd be put into. As for whether I'd be comfortable with it, you're asking a question that doesn't pertain to trans people at all. This is because we're naturally going to be uncomfortable with what we're unfamiliar with. Trans people are not in a situation where they got transplanted into a different body or got transformed into some other creature by an evil enchanter/enchantress/whatever as in the fairy tales. They're people who have always had their own body, they just don't like it. Just like most people on Earth who complain about their bodies.

This is a disingenuous attempt to get people to say, "I wouldn't be happy being put into a female/male body because that's not what I am." In reality, people wouldn't be happy because it's not their body that they're already used to. What if this new body isn't healthy? What if it's ugly? What if it's very old or very young compared to what you're used to? What if it's obese? There are so many variables in this hypothetical that it makes no sense.

3. If you actually could make a man into a biological woman, then he'd be a she. I'll concede to that one. However, that's not possible to do. You cannot fully change a man into a woman, all you can do is give him certain secondary sex characteristics (which aren't primary, which is why we don't use them to determine sex) and hack off his genitals.

Also, I doubt that even if you managed this fantastic brain transplantation or fairy godmother transformation that you'd manage to overcome the AGP that drove you to begin with. To that end, would you even get such a procedure? You wouldn't be able to jerk it anymore, so I doubt it.

To continue on, I argue with his neurobiology = brain sex, and trans people totes have a brain sex. I posted this yesterday and I guess I'll post it again here. Neurobiology is a form of neurosexism, so technically you don't have a 'female brain' because we can't even quantify what that is.

More Autism

And, for his final point, no, trans people aren't changed enough to be considered intersex. That's not what intersex is and that's not how intersex conditions are caused. An MTFer isn't just like a man with androgen insensitivity.

And I notice he's leaving the poor pooners out to dry in his analogy here. Then again, they always forget the pooners exist.
 
Athena Save Us! said:
1. A brain in a jar is a person, but not a male or female person. You need a sexed body to be male or female.
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Totally agree. It's similar to if we take a CPU out of a gaming computer and drop it into a jar - is it an AMD or nVidia gaming PC in the jar? Neither, it doesn't have the requisite equipment to be either. It really doesn't matter what it was before.

Unfortunately this kind of argument might blur the lines favorably for trannies, because they might argue they can just "swap enough of their equipment" to become the other sex. Kind of just goes to show that you can't even entertain their hypotheticals because it gives them a glimmer of feeling right if you can't obliterate their point entirely.
 
Positron said:
1. You are a disembodied brain, not a person. To be a man or a woman you must be a person.
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Athena Save Us! said:
1. A brain in a jar is a person, but not a male or female person. You need a sexed body to be male or female.
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I disagree on this one. Even if the brain is out of the body, it's still built with male or female chromosomes in it, grown with a male or female hormonal profile, and its structure is going to be heavily affected by both of those. A liver taken from a woman is still a female liver, and a kidney taken from a man is still a male kidney, and will have a higher risk of rejection if transplanted into a body of the opposite sex. Nobody can truly escape their biological blueprint.

I feel like the questions of "does a brain in a jar count as a person?" and "if you put someones brain into a wildly different body, how would that person feel?" are more interesting and harder hypotheticals (if the jarbrain has consciousness I would say they do count as a person), but regardless, it is always either a male or female organ in that jar or body, and if the brain alone is what's considered a person, then they're either a man or a woman.

The "feeling" like a man/woman stuff and troons having "opposite sex brains" or being able to "fully transition" is still bullshit, of course.
 
MerelyAPlateOfSpaghetti said:
Totally agree. It's similar to if we take a CPU out of a gaming computer and drop it into a jar - is it an AMD or nVidia gaming PC in the jar? Neither, it doesn't have the requisite equipment to be either. It really doesn't matter what it was before.

Unfortunately this kind of argument might blur the lines favorably for trannies, because they might argue they can just "swap enough of their equipment" to become the other sex. Kind of just goes to show that you can't even entertain their hypotheticals because it gives them a glimmer of feeling right if you can't obliterate their point entirely.
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Also, the whole androgen insensitivity thing isn't the own he thinks it is. If your gender can be mismatched with your body and guys like David Reimer can totally know what they were supposed to be, why don't we see any of these men with androgen insensitivity proclaiming that they knew all along they were men? They're socialized as girls and then take estrogen later when they find out about their condition, proving that socialization plays a huge role in how you view yourself. If trans was a thing, then most of them would probably start identifying as men and saying that they never felt comfortable as women.

And they can't point to the insensitivity to prove their point because their own brains were soaked in testosterone instead of estrogen and they still claim to be women. Same with pooners, except their brains were already saturated with estrogen.
 
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