🐱 The Socialist Dune?

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Frank Herbert’s Dune has been pushed to the forefront of popular discourse thanks to Denis Villeneuve’s blockbuster adaptation (and the associated marketing push). Despite its status as a classic of American science fiction, Dune and the series it began have received less scholarly attention than contemporaries like J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings or the works of Kurt Vonnegut, meaning there is less expert consensus to guide commentators, pundits, and regular folks trying to sort out the novel’s meaning and politics, in its time and in ours.

The one thing that most scholars and commentators seem to agree is that “Dune is more relevant than ever.” Few agree, however, on just what aspects of the text are relevant today, to whom, or why. Some have decried Dune as an exemplar of the most toxic tropes lurking in science fiction, calling the novel an orientalist fever dream, a paean to eugenics, and a seductive monument to fascist aesthetics; others look at the same text and see an excoriation of hero worship, a cautionary tale of revolutionary dreams betrayed, and a warning about indigenous sovereignty subverted by a charismatic charlatan.

Both of these interpretations are grounded in clear textual evidence, and part of the novel’s enduring appeal is its ability to inspire such seemingly contradictory takes. Indeed, it’s not despite but because of these contradictions that the novel has exerted such a pull on the left-wing imagination over the years — and retains its uses for left-wing politics today.

Herbert said many times that Dune’s central theme is the “dangers of the superhero.” In a piece of that name, republished in Tim O’Reilly’s The Maker of Dune, Herbert claims that “the original spark” of the novel was his conviction that “superheroes are disastrous for mankind,” and a desire to dramatize how the mythmaking impulse that crowns a hero inevitably conjures a toxic, totalitarian social system of “demagogues, fanatics, con-game artists . . . [and] innocent and not so innocent bystanders.”

Dune, then, explores what makes the hero seductive enough that people willingly, even rapturously, “turn over their judgement and decision-making faculties.” This framing locates Dune alongside projects like Theodor Adorno’s “F-Scale,” in the grand tradition of postwar theorizing about fascist subjectivity. Rather than theorize the seductiveness of the fascist imagination, Herbert’s novel is intended to function as a trap, a mechanism intended both to perform the siren song of hero worship and simultaneously estrange readers from that experience, exposing their own complicit desires for it.

The result is a text in which the surface narrative of imperial power fantasy is conveyed through multiple viewpoints, each of which undercuts and complicates the others. The novel provides plenty of clues for how readers are intended to approach this hedge of perspectives. An example is Leto’s advice to a young Paul:

Knowing where the trap is — that’s the first step in evading it. This is like single combat, Son, only on a larger scale — a feint within a feint within a feint . . . seemingly without end. The task is to unravel it.
Leto speaks of the politics in the novel, but his advice applies to the politics of the novel, too. Little should be taken at face value. Each element of the narrative is meant to provoke reactions in the reader, misdirect their attention, and set them up for the next confounding or estranging jolt.

The critical elements of the novel are found in the framing and subtext, in the interplay of perspective, and especially in the sardonic tone that suffuses the text. Here again, the text offers the careful reader clear instruction. In one of the epigraphs framing the narrative, Paul says of his own performance as a “hero”:

The person experiencing greatness . . . must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself.
Dune’s dour, self-lacerating tone is what allows the novel to “move within” itself and its own heroic pretensions. Stilted dialogue, caustic asides, and other sour notes dampen ostensibly epic and exciting plot elements, recasting Paul’s “hero’s journey” as a descent into cynical self-destruction, as when Paul turns to his companion Stilgar, in a moment of triumph, to find his friend has “become a worshipper,” a mere “creature” ruined by Paul’s own ambition. By poisoning its feast of fascist aesthetics, the novel strives to put us off the taste for good.

The first and in some ways most important reader to fall into this trap was John W. Campbell, editor of Analog Science Fiction and Fact magazine, where the first version of Dune was serially published. A notorious aficionado of psychic übermenschen, Campbell was thrilled by this “grand yarn,” and his correspondence with Herbert about the manuscript shows little initial awareness of its critical treatment of his favorite themes.

Campbell’s embrace allowed the ambitious narrative to see the light of day: Without the Analog publication, Herbert would have had an even harder time selling the text as a novel. But his reaction also showed the weakness in the book’s approach. While the seductive fascist aesthetic is right up on the surface, inescapable, the critical and estranging elements have proved all too easy to miss, by Campbell and generations of readers that have followed him. Worse, this narrative mechanism is most likely to fail those already targeted for fascist recruiting: Young people and those underserved by our devastated educational systems.

For all readers, making sense of a narrative comprised of feints within feints, “seemingly without end,” means your ultimate interpretation is mostly a function of the level at which you choose to stop digging. Scholars like David Higgins and Jordan Scott Carroll have recently shown that both naïve and more motivated readings centering the fascist spectacle in Dune have made the novel a touchstone of the modern right; indeed, as Daniel Immerwahr and Chris Dite have argued, some of these “bad” readings might be closer to Herbert’s own views than many fans like to admit.

The key for the Left, then, is to pay more attention to the questions the text raises, rather than the tainted answers it offers. For instance, as mentioned, Dune gives us an extended critique of the hero mystique. It asks how we reevaluate the role of iconic political figures in light of Paul’s “bad heroism,” and how we build on their vision and charisma while avoiding Stilgar’s fate; how, ultimately, we remain comrades in struggle, rather than idols and worshippers. (The second novel in the series, Dune Messiah, is helpful here, as the autocratic tendencies in Paul’s “heroism” and their grim consequences rise to the surface.)

Meanwhile, as Immerwahr has shown, Herbert’s representation of indigeneity is vexed at best. The novel’s portrait of the Fremen’s “desert power” and the ecological literacy underlying it is steeped in the distinctively libertarian countercultural mode of Northern California in the mid-1960s, best expressed in the eclectic DIY ethos of Stewart Brand’s Whole Earth Catalog — which presented materials ranging from homesteading supplies to books on non-Western philosophy as “tools” with which the settler-colonial hipster can pioneer their own intentional community.

The celebration of ecological wisdom in the novel is always, at the same time, the expansion of the imperial subject’s power over themselves and their environment — what Higgins has called fantasies of “psychic decolonization” — even if the novel undercuts such fantasies by holding that such attempts at control inevitably fail.

As we seek paths to avoid environmental catastrophe, acting in solidarity with indigenous communities and honoring and learning from their traditional knowledges will be key to our survival. How, then, can we avoid the approaches the novel dramatizes, which appropriate and instrumentalize such wisdom, weaponizing it as means of power-over?

Similar questions apply to the novel’s portrayal of women, which, as Kara Kennedy has argued, is complex and sometimes contradictory. Lady Jessica is, for most practical purposes, the coprotagonist of the first half of the novel, but she and the rest of the mysterious and potent Bene Gesserit order are ultimately cast as Paul’s antagonists, and his co-option of their feminine-coded abilities for his own masculine purposes is central to his ascent to superheroism.

Making these women the perpetrators of the breeding program that produced Paul’s superhuman powers (and those of the rest of the novels’ extraordinarily skilled characters) means that they ultimately take the fall for Herbert’s own eugenicist predilections.

The Bene Gesserit and their powers are pathologized in the narrative in a manner that makes shaming and repudiating them central to Paul’s own “heroic journey” — but his appropriation of the “Bene Gesserit Way” also helps us think about the ways neoliberal capitalism and the gig economy exploit and commodify the kin-keeping and caring labor most often performed by women.

My own work has focused on how Dune’s fetishization of training and human potential anticipates neoliberalism’s transformation of human beings into human capital, to be managed and developed to maximize returns on investment. Paul is one of the first superheroes whose powers turn on speculation and preemption: Rather than being fantastically strong and powerful like Superman, he uses his prescience and minutely trained senses to invest the minimum force to the precise points where it will have maximum effect. He is the hero as arbitrageur, a warrior in the mode of Donald Rumsfeld’s “Revolution in Military Affairs.”

Paul’s transformation into a speculative superhero is both triumph and self-destruction, spurring consideration of the way neoliberal language infests our experiences and our activism: We “invest our time” and scrutinize the “impact of those investments.” How, in Dune’s light, can we reimagine our agency and our goals outside the language of human capital development Paul dramatizes?

Read with an ear for these issues, Dune can offer powerful images and cautionary tales for leftist organizing and struggle. It helps us better understand those who have succumbed to the tainted delights Dune offers and parallels — especially important in light of the ways Villeneuve’s adaptation smooths away the novel’s sardonic edges. At best, Dune might even give us some of the tools to free others from the narrative’s trap.
 
I can't comment on the article itself because I haven't read Dune nor I have watched the movies, but...

> “Dune is more relevant than ever.”​

Haven't progressives said this about every other franchise they infested and destroyed?
 
meaning there is less expert consensus to guide commentators, pundits, and regular folks trying to sort out the novel’s meaning and politics, in its time and in ours.
Read the fucking books, and decide for yourself what Herbert meant to impart onto his readers. The man was an excellent author, with the ability to weave interesting, pertinent, and sometimes genuinely deep/penetrating insights about the human condition into his texts. He touches so many topics with a subtle nuance that few could replicate, all while providing his readers with a captivating story. I don't think Herbert ever wrote his books with the intention that they would be studied or analyzed, most of what he has to say is straight forward when you take a moment to think.
 
The question Asimov posed with the story was: Is it more important for humans to govern humans, or for humans to be governed by whatever does the most good for humans.
To be fair, Asimov posed a form of that question in most of his stories, and I don’t think he ever found an answer he really liked. the one that I remember best is his Second Foundation where he added rule 0 to the Laws of Robotics.

But the rest of your post is interesting. I have all 6 Dune books on Audible but I’ve never read anything past Dune, maybe I need to rectify that.

Also,
For God’s sake please keep these people away from Vonnegut. I know he was already a bleeding heart liberal, but I can’t even imagine how much worse trying to interpret ANY of his stuff today would make it. The fact that he had sympathy for the German guards watching over him in WW2 would be enough to be permanently cancelled.
 
The Culture is probably the closest thing I can think of to Hell on Earth. I mean that without any hyperbole, I believe that conflict and suffering are absolutely required for humans.
I once said that Look to Windward made the Culture look almost like a dystopia and triggered a bunch of Culture fans, but I maintain that it's the correct answer and that it's what Banks wanted you to take away from that discussion scene.
 
I once said that Look to Windward made the Culture look almost like a dystopia and triggered a bunch of Culture fans, but I maintain that it's the correct answer and that it's what Banks wanted you to take away from that discussion scene.
I agree. I often write for fun, and part of the creative process that I enjoy the most is taking my good situations and protagonists and trying to look at them from another perspective. I feel it makes for a more enjoyable story, and better characterization. Banks is a talented author, and he probably does something similar without even having to think about it.
 
I agree. I often write for fun, and part of the creative process that I enjoy the most is taking my good situations and protagonists and trying to look at them from another perspective. I feel it makes for a more enjoyable story, and better characterization. Banks is a talented author, and he probably does something similar without even having to think about it.
I think Vox Day once mentioned that the proper way to look at a villain is that they see themselves as a hero in their own story and to write them like that. It makes them far more compelling. It's good advice, which Vox has, when he's not grifting or being a mild lolcow. He was off to a good thing on his last round of fiction writing before he dropped it for...whatever he got up to.
 
I can't comment on the article itself because I haven't read Dune nor I have watched the movies, but...

> “Dune is more relevant than ever.”​

Haven't progressives said this about every other franchise they infested and destroyed?

It's funny because we definitely need someone to set humanity on the Golden Path ASAP
 
The Bene Gesserit aspire to be Emperor-by-Proxy through their puppet, the Kwisatz Haderach. Paul rightly regarded those who would enslave him as his antagonists. What's so hard to figure out about this?


Calling skills and training 'feminine-coded' is a take so pants-shittingly exceptional that only a communist (this is Jacobin after all) could dare to utter it. Again, the Bene Gesserit aspired to dominate the Universe, so how is it 'masculine' when Paul simply beat them to the punch by appearing too soon, frustrating their attempts to ensnare him, and dominating the Universe himself?

I read "coprotagonist" and thought the author was trying to say Jessica was a coprophile. 🤮

Real journalists don't make up words. Or they at least remember to add a fucking hyphen so it isn't misread as something completely different. Secondary protagonist would have made more sense.

Everything has to be divided into gendered boxes so these people can better understand it. While this author probably thinks that gender doesn't exist, they will still use gender to divide everything up into little pieces at every opportunity.
 
If I wasnt stuck on my phone I'd post the quotes from the books about how over regulating people limits their potential which causes society to crumble or how between right wing bigots and left wing ones, the hypocrisy of the left to form bureacratic hierarchies turning into the same kind of noble class they claim to despise is worse.
 
I'm almost glad that most of Robert Heinleins novels haven't been made into movies after reading this shit. It's a shame most people think of Starship Troopers as a parody of fascism and not a borderline endorsement of it because some dutch faggot didn't read the book before making a movie out of it. I can only imagine the mockery they would make of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
 
Yeah, I've read some of the Culture stuff. It's an interesting setting to be sure. From what I've read it does seem to be the ultimate form of 'liberal Utopia' with the exception of things like Sublimation offering a path to something 'more', which wouldn't exist in a truly Liberalist world. I'd say the Minds are basically gods, but they don't really serve the same function as 'gods' have for humans historically. They're there to universally condone and allow human excesses, rather than temper/direct them. They're sort of like anti-gods in a way.

From a purely 'rational' view of history, gods can be seen as evolutionary advantageous constructs. (If they are real or not isn't relevant to their function in human society); they turn biological drives into divine drives. Multiply and be fruitful, love your brother, spread across the land are just dressed up versions of 'Reproduce, protect your tribe, take your neighbors women'. Minds do the opposite, they create an entirely conflict free, and sterile 'utopia'. People don't struggle, have children, or even have to really think for themselves. They follow the most immediate desire for pleasure and entertainment. Eventually they'll all die off (unless the minds choose to breed them like caged hamsters to prevent that outcome) or enough of them will regain enough of their humanity to sublimate as a group. The Culture is probably the closest thing I can think of to Hell on Earth. I mean that without any hyperbole, I believe that conflict and suffering are absolutely required for humans.
In all fairness, the Minds don't really force you to stay. If someone didn't like the commie anarchist libertarian utopia, they are free to leave. Plus Culture citizens can vote on matters and even secede without trouble. Plus, Banks has given his own utopia plenty of shade for the very reasons of its monotony. Again, no one is obligated to stay there.

To link it back to Dune, it's why the God Emperor serves the function of an actual god. His cruelty is incalculable, the horror and suffering he inflicts on humanity literally changes them forever. But as a result they spread out so far and wide, to every corner of the entire universe, and in such great numbers that even if history is cyclical (which many reactionaries, myself included, see it as) and the thinking machines are remade, that humanity can never be destroyed. It's the platonic ideal of 'be fruitful and multiply'.
Yeah, what the hell? It might make sense in Dune, but I refuse to accept a god that allows worldwide famines and discord just to make us "stronger". It's even stranger to accept that cruelty as necessary when you're already at the receiving end of it.

Good is what benefits my people, my peoples soul and my future people. Every single other peoples of the Earth should be ground underfoot and destroyed at worst, or actively ignored at best. Good is more than a spreadsheet document measuring calories. To quote some cringe: 'Not mere flesh and blood are we, luminous beings we are.' Putting aside any discussion of the metaphysical concept of the soul, humans need more than just subsistence. They need purpose, they need goals, conflict, struggle and suffering. Otherwise we stop behaving like humans, and start behaving like cattle.

Humans are violent, tribalistic, vicious, xenophobic and hierarchical. This is good. Anything that tries to strip that away from us is bad. Part of being human is making decisions as a man; and living with those decisions. Kill a baby if you want, but do it yourself, for your own reasons. Don't offload your morals and decisions to a thinking machine. Because if you do that, you're not human.
That is a strange worldview. I never came across anyone that came into that conclusion and say "yeah, violence is actually okay and being human" despite the contradictory traits that counter those awful traits you call "good". I can understand self-preservation requiring doing unscrupulous things just to survive, but there are moments were these things aren't necessary. When the cost of warring for resources is too high, people would rather trade instead. Seeking comfort to me is just as natural as those "good" things you said there.
 
In all fairness, the Minds don't really force you to stay. If someone didn't like the commie anarchist libertarian utopia, they are free to leave. Plus Culture citizens can vote on matters and even secede without trouble. Plus, Banks has given his own utopia plenty of shade for the very reasons of its monotony. Again, no one is obligated to stay there.
People raised as pets, in a pet like environment are not going to leave it. It's as simple as that, their existence is physically stimulating and designed to be so in a way that satisfies them completely. To say that they can leave is technically true, but factually incorrect. Much in the same way I can leave the UK, and go live in a cave in the Sahara. Sure, I can go and be miserable and die.
Yeah, what the hell? It might make sense in Dune, but I refuse to accept a god that allows worldwide famines and discord just to make us "stronger". It's even stranger to accept that cruelty as necessary when you're already at the receiving end of it.
If you are religious, then you already do. Cruelty and suffering are necessary, without them growth is not possible. This is an objective fact of biology (insofar as struggle and suffering are linked), and typical in many philosophies and religions. All living things adapt to the conditions that they are contained in, and if those conditions allow for extreme weakness, then that is what will be produced. If the conditions do not, then the weak die, and only those suited to survive will. I was talking about god in the purely material sense, in which religiosity would have to be advantageous to be selected for.

That is a strange worldview. I never came across anyone that came into that conclusion and say "yeah, violence is actually okay and being human" despite the contradictory traits that counter those awful traits you call "good". I can understand self-preservation requiring doing unscrupulous things just to survive, but there are moments were these things aren't necessary. When the cost of warring for resources is too high, people would rather trade instead. Seeking comfort to me is just as natural as those "good" things you said there.
I wouldn't say it's a strange world view. I'd say it's accurate. Humans are tribalistic, xenophobic, and vicious. We conquer, and we kill, and win. The contradictory traits of co-operation, and altruism - in terms of evolutionary biology - exist to supplement the vicious ones, not actually contradict them. Altruism can be modeled mathematically very successfully (If the fitness cost to the donor is less than the fitness benefit to the recipient, discounted by the relatedness co-efficient between the two), and is about assisting people who are genetically related to you, over ones that are not. My point with that however, is not that to just be violent is what makes us human. Humanity is what makes us humans, and that by offloading our morality to third party systems, we begin to become less and less human. To be a human, you have to truly take hold of your own beliefs and live with the consequences of them.

Also you probably could have messaged me, or did this on my profile, I love shooting the shit about Dune and philosophy. :)
 
They talk about the Bene Gesserit but they don’t talk about the Honored Matres and how they literally fuck their enemies to death. They have sex with them. Nonstop. Until they die.

0/10, not fully addressing the lore
 
If you are religious, then you already do. Cruelty and suffering are necessary, without them growth is not possible. This is an objective fact of biology (insofar as struggle and suffering are linked), and typical in many philosophies and religions. All living things adapt to the conditions that they are contained in, and if those conditions allow for extreme weakness, then that is what will be produced. If the conditions do not, then the weak die, and only those suited to survive will. I was talking about god in the purely material sense, in which religiosity would have to be advantageous to be selected for.
Didn't expect this thread to get dug up. As a Christian, I'd simply point to the parable of the prodigal son as an example of this. The father gave the son what he want, which he wasted, squandered and no doubt suffered because of it. But the son learned humility through that. It's why I've never been swayed by the "If God exists, why didn't he give me that pony or make my life painless and perfect." We humans don't really value things we're given with no struggle and would a truly loving God let us become nothing but spoiled children?
 
People on both the left and right are retarded and eager to see what they want in media they like. I know a leftoid who read The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Heinlein and he somehow came out of it thinking it was about how socialism is good. Somehow TANSTAAFL was completely lost on them.
 
You faggots bumping Cat Party articles makes me think he's come back :(

Fuck you...
 
but his appropriation of the “Bene Gesserit Way” also helps us think about the ways neoliberal capitalism and the gig economy exploit and commodify the kin-keeping and caring labor most often performed by women.
This may be the most spectacular missing of the point I’ve ever seen about Dune.
It’s one of my very favourite books. I first read it as a young teen and I’ve probably read it twenty times. I think I’d still have to sit down and think before I wrote any kind of ‘this is what the book is saying’ spiel. It’s absolutely not socialist. It has a lot to say about humanity, what makes us human, and how the individual and the group relate to each other and how humanity as a whole moves forward. Every time I read it I find something new . The butlerian Jihad stuff is extremely relevant in our current world. It’s a lot more subtle than ‘AI takes over’ though. I think at one level dune is about human and historical ecology, for want of a better word. from the smallest human scale of tiny minutiae to the broadest strokes of history and how those fractal layers impact each other in ways we don’t always expect. It’s about power, will to power, and forces that drive us. It’s about what makes us human and threaten our humanity. It’s a very difficult book to distill down into an article. I
Ever sift sand through a sieve?
I really like Iain Banks as well and I think his exploration of the Culture is great. It starts off quite heavy handed, his metaphor woth the cannibal fat dude and religion is like being hit with a brick, but as the series progressed you can see him thinking more about his utopia and how it makes humanity not really human. I suspect writing it made him confront his own political biases.
That theme is one of many that reflects in dune - do we need violent struggle to remain human as a culture?
It’s a genuinely great book, if you haven’t read it, I would.
 
but his appropriation of the “Bene Gesserit Way” also helps us think about the ways neoliberal capitalism and the gig economy exploit and commodify the kin-keeping and caring labor most often performed by women.
This may be the most spectacular missing of the point I’ve ever seen about Dune.
It’s one of my very favourite books. I first read it as a young teen and I’ve probably read it twenty times. I think I’d still have to sit down and think before I wrote any kind of ‘this is what the book is saying’ spiel. It’s absolutely not socialist. It has a lot to say about humanity, what makes us human, and how the individual and the group relate to each other and how humanity as a whole moves forward. Every time I read it I find something new . The butlerian Jihad stuff is extremely relevant in our current world. It’s a lot more subtle than ‘AI takes over’ though. I think at one level dune is about human and historical ecology, for want of a better word. from the smallest human scale of tiny minutiae to the broadest strokes of history and how those fractal layers impact each other in ways we don’t always expect. It’s about power, will to power, and forces that drive us. It’s about what makes us human and threaten our humanity. It’s a very difficult book to distill down into an article. I
Ever sift sand through a sieve?
I really like Iain Banks as well and I think his exploration of the Culture is great. It starts off quite heavy handed, his metaphor woth the cannibal fat dude and religion is like being hit with a brick, but as the series progressed you can see him thinking more about his utopia and how it makes humanity not really human. I suspect writing it made him confront his own political biases.
That theme is one of many that reflects in dune - do we need violent struggle to remain human as a culture?
It’s a genuinely great book, if you haven’t read it, I would.
Another Dune theme that is incredibly relevant today is the dangers of groupthink and getting wrapped up in a political movement. What starts out from a good place can quickly spiral out of control into something ugly and degenerate.
 
I'd say it's a 50/50 tossup. I've seen people who proclaim to love Dune, and have read it multiple times say that the Butlerian Jihad was 'too extreme' and 'a massive waste of good work' when they destroyed the AI; and killed the men that made them.
But i love our new AI overlords and will do everything that they take over all of the world.
 
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