The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Stan]

2. Walk train bike car

Out of a locked ghetto with armed guards? Are you literally retarded?

Look, I can give you this bit of history, take from it what you will. But one of the first things the Nazis did to trample on the civil rights of Jewish Germans was to invalidate their passports into one-way exit visas; they could leave Germany, but they couldn't go back in. Many Jews indeed saw the writing on the wall and left, leaving most if not all of their assets behind for the Nazis to reappropriate to party members. Some maybe could have left when they had the chance, but didn't (e.g. Otto Frank) because their business was their only asset. A lot of them simply couldn't leave because they couldn't afford or secure a visa to emigrate anywhere else. Many of the 6 million Jewish victims were dirt poor and had neither funding nor know-how to leave the country.

 

[mrolonzo]

What is strange about Mattogno's argument is that he does not dispute the authenticity of the EG reports, but simply claims that the SS was exaggerating how many Jews they were shooting.

This is a double-edged sword for deniers though. If the EG are exaggerating to win favor with the higher-ups, it would appear that the higher-ups want to see Jews killed. And the amount of Jews the EG say they have killed in the reports (about 2 million) is obviously genocidal since it would amount to almost all the Jews in the occupied Soviet Union.

So even if one believes that the numbers are exaggerated in the EG reports, I cannot see how the reports can be read as anything other than proof of a genocidal policy on the part of the German gov against Soviet Jewry.

From the superficial perspective of the exterminationist it's a fair though limited argument.

Maybe the senior ranks were giving out extra medals for every child raped and slaughtered by da ebil nazi soldiers. Perhaps a points system when driving around the country like in death race - extra points for men or children as they are generally faster and harder to spot.

Only kidding.

 

[mrolonzo]

OK but where? The banks won't take their valuables for safekeeping; the government won't let you wire-transfer money out of the country, you can't buy an asset like a house and expect to keep it so... where to "hide" it? Did they just bury it in the yard and hope they can get it back later? I mean, that's what they did with their wedding rings at Sobibor. Which you still think was a transit camp.

Out of a locked ghetto with armed guards? Are you literally retarded?

Look, I can give you this bit of history, take from it what you will. But one of the first things the Nazis did to trample on the civil rights of Jewish Germans was to invalidate their passports into one-way exit visas; they could leave Germany, but they couldn't go back in. Many Jews indeed saw the writing on the wall and left, leaving most if not all of their assets behind for the Nazis to reappropriate to party members. Some maybe could have left when they had the chance, but didn't (e.g. Otto Frank) because their business was their only asset. A lot of them simply couldn't leave because they couldn't afford or secure a visa to emigrate anywhere else. Many of the 6 million Jewish victims were dirt poor and had neither funding nor know-how to leave the country.

You're coming at this like you've just watched another stupid holocaust movie or read some book and are really feeling their pain.

Is that what it is for you? A heart rending emotional drama?

 

[Stan]

You just write like you‘re doing a class assignment and I honestly can’t tell if the super formal rigidness is just your schtick or more likely you’re over exaggerating how well you know it.

I‘m gonna leave this up even though you changed the response. If you didn‘t annoying use your German skills as a flex, I wouldn’t have bit.


Anecdotes don‘t necessarily equal evidence but I‘m also not going to ignore what’s right in front of me simply because it doesn‘t fit a narrative. I certainly don’t live in a Jewish neighborhood and it‘s mostly secular Jews anyways.

Warte mal, scheißen Sie auf mein Deutsch weil ich zu formal bin? Jemand mussen was in Ihrem Kopf geschießen und zu rühren vergessen. Normalerweise merke ich auf Fehler an, und versuche mein Deutsch zu verbessern. Es ist ganz idiotisch von Sie, das nicht zu machen.

Ihre
Stanley

ETA: "If you didn‘t annoying use your German skills as a flex, I wouldn’t have bit." Rofl your English sucks go back to class

 

[AndEveryoneDied]

Warte mal, scheißen Sie auf mein Deutsch weil ich zu formal bin? Jemand mussen was in Ihrem Kopf geschießen und zu rühren vergessen. Normalerweise merke ich auf Fehler an, und versuche mein Deutsch zu verbessern. Es ist ganz idiotisch von Sie, das nicht zu machen.

Ihre
Stanley

ETA: "If you didn‘t annoying use your German skills as a flex, I wouldn’t have bit." Rofl your English sucks go back to class

A typo and clunky speech are not the same.

Is mir echt egal, also lass ich es erstmal. Ich finds eigentlich toll, dass du mehrere Sprachen sprichst/schreibst. Wollte nur etwas über Arroganz schreiben.

So ya know, keep at it champ.

 

[Aves]

Mrolonzo,

One thing before I reply to the other stuff, I need to know what you think happened to the Jews.

You said this before : What jews are you talking about? Are you sure about the numbers?

Do you not believe millions of Jews were sent over to the East? What exactly do you think happened to the Jews during the holocaust? How many Jews died or were resettled somewhere else, and where were they resettled?

You're coming at this like you've just watched another stupid holocaust movie or read some book and are really feeling their pain.

Is that what it is for you? A heart rending emotional drama?

What kind of dumb response is this?

“Here are many reasons why many Jews were incapable of avoiding the nazi regime”

“Oh you’re just EMOTIONAL LOL”

Stans response is more than adequate to explain why the nazis would have no reason to cover up a deportation of millions. The Jews couldn’t leave, and the ones who could already had left. Send off the Gestapo to get the rest and you should have a vast majority of Jews in your hands. Especially during a war, they couldn’t get anywhere. Goebells quote was made in the December of 1942, a majority of Jews were under Nazi hands were they not?

And please link me what this Israel thing is.

And to answer your other question, I would have no reason to support nazis even if they deported Jews. Robbing people of their money and deporting them is itself evil.

You're probably living in an enclave. Statistically, there aren't many Jews in Europe at all; whoever didn't get Shoah-ed moved away to America or Israel. But where they do live, they form communities where everything's within walking distance. Jews do this because they are not supposed to drive to the synagogue on Saturday; it's forbidden work. So if you're living in an eruv, you will see a predominance of Jews. Also n=1 and anecdotes =/= evidence

Ok, dude, stop getting so worked up. Some random dude had a random anecdote, let him say whatever.

 

[Bonesjones]

Out of a locked ghetto with armed guards? Are you literally retarded?

Look, I can give you this bit of history, take from it what you will. But one of the first things the Nazis did to trample on the civil rights of Jewish Germans was to invalidate their passports into one-way exit visas; they could leave Germany, but they couldn't go back in. Many Jews indeed saw the writing on the wall and left, leaving most if not all of their assets behind for the Nazis to reappropriate to party members. Some maybe could have left when they had the chance, but didn't (e.g. Otto Frank) because their business was their only asset. A lot of them simply couldn't leave because they couldn't afford or secure a visa to emigrate anywhere else. Many of the 6 million Jewish victims were dirt poor and had neither funding nor know-how to leave the country.

Otto Frank the guy running a ration card forgery ring? He didn't leave because his only asset was a business and not because he was involved in organized crime. Hmm.

 

[Chugger]

Do you not believe millions of Jews were sent over to the East? What exactly do you think happened to the Jews during the holocaust? How many Jews died or were resettled somewhere else, and where were they resettled?

he doesn't know. and I don't he think he cares

If the EG are exaggerating to win favor with the higher-ups, it would appear that the higher-ups want to see Jews killed.

the EG probably did exagerate to a certain extent, but the numbers aren't 5 or 10x like revisionists hope. Maybe 10%? Ohlendorf talked about this during his trial, and I'm inclined to believe him. and yes, it betrays a strong need to please their superiors

I wonder what @mrolonzo thinks of the Strauch/Kube dossier, a document which is an interesting portrait of an SS police leader complaining to his superiors about the attitude and behavior of the governor of belarus. it is as far as I know completely untouched by revisionists, even though it's major document (it was one of the first primary texts I read on the holocaust)

mrolonzo, are you Team Strauch or Team Kube?

 

[Stan]

A typo and clunky speech are not the same.

Is mir echt egal, also lass ich es erstmal. Ich finds eigentlich toll, dass du mehrere Sprachen sprichst/schreibst. Wollte nur etwas über Arroganz schreiben.

So ya know, keep at it champ.

I’m sorry for my arrogance, true-deutscher. It’s my second language, and you’re right; I’m never going to speak it as Germans can. I bring it up here to oppose the “cultural misunderstanding” model of Holocaust denial.

 

[JohnDoe]

It’s my second language

You mean third, don't you? Hebrew>English>German seems about right for you, from your postings.

I bring it up here to oppose the “cultural misunderstanding” model of Holocaust denial

The only cultural 'misunderstanding' is between one group insisting on the truth about the Holohoax and another group willing to falsify anything in order to achieve their aims of wealth and power.

 

[Ukraine is Big Gay]

Current favorite thread.
It has become such a fine grit of semantics that it's now a series of arguments about how the argument is being argued.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Mrolonzo,

One thing before I reply to the other stuff, I need to know what you think happened to the Jews.

You said this before : What jews are you talking about? Are you sure about the numbers?

Do you not believe millions of Jews were sent over to the East? What exactly do you think happened to the Jews during the holocaust? How many Jews died or were resettled somewhere else, and where were they resettled?


What kind of dumb response is this?

“Here are many reasons why many Jews were incapable of avoiding the nazi regime”

“Oh you’re just EMOTIONAL LOL”

Stans response is more than adequate to explain why the nazis would have no reason to cover up a deportation of millions. The Jews couldn’t leave, and the ones who could already had left. Send off the Gestapo to get the rest and you should have a vast majority of Jews in your hands. Especially during a war, they couldn’t get anywhere. Goebells quote was made in the December of 1942, a majority of Jews were under Nazi hands were they not?

And please link me what this Israel thing is.

And to answer your other question, I would have no reason to support nazis even if they deported Jews. Robbing people of their money and deporting them is itself evil.

Ok, dude, stop getting so worked up. Some random dude had a random anecdote, let him say whatever.

Pretty funny post where you're admonishing one person for calling stan emotional and then accusing stan that they're getting too worked up.

 

[Super-Chevy454]

I don't know if I should have posted here on in the Canada failed state thread but I spotted this article about Holocaust discussion in Canada.

Canada Outlaws 'Condoning, Denying or Downplaying' the Holocaust Mythos

Jewish Political Theology Enshrined in the Criminal Code

www.unz.com

Canada Outlaws "Condoning, Denying or Downplaying" the Holocaust Mythos
Jewish Political Theology Enshrined in the Criminal Code

According to the OED, a “mythos” is a “traditional or recurrent narrative theme or pattern; a standard plot in literature.” For many, the Holocaust Mythos conjures up the hope of universal redemption from the absolute evils of racism, anti-Semitism, and militant White nationalism. Arising out of the allegedly planned extermination of the Jewish people by “Nazi” Germany and its collaborators, the story has acquired canonical status in officially-constructed “memory cultures” throughout the West. In Canada, where the politically correct Trudeau regime clearly craves recognition as a humanitarian superpower, the government has followed in the footsteps of Germany and several other European states by enshrining the official narrative in the Criminal Code, s. 319. Henceforth

(2.1) Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

• (a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
• (b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Even before the criminal law was amended to outlaw the “[w]ilful promotion of antisemitism,” schools, universities, churches, and the media in Canada routinely stigmatize anyone who publicly dares to doubt the truth of the Holocaust Mythos. The Canadian parliament, therefore, meekly echoed Jewish historian Alon Confino who describes the Holocaust as “a foundational event that tests the limits of our humanity.” Another Jewish historian, Matthew Feldman, acknowledges that the received interpretation of “the Holocaust” as “history’s greatest crime” emanates a quintessentially religious aura. No Member of Parliament wanted to be seen “profaning” the memory of Jewish victims of “the supreme example of human inhumanity” by voting against the proposed amendments. For its part, the Trudeau government can be confident that enforcement of its postmodern anti-blasphemy law will not be impeded by the much-hyped Charter of Rights and Freedoms. For a long-time Charter sceptic such as myself, this is no surprise.

After the massive violations of a host of fundamental rights and civil liberties supposedly “guaranteed” by the Charter during the recent Covid pandemic, suppression of presumptive rights to form and publicly express controversial opinions on the history of the Third Reich is about par for the course. Is it merely coincidence that this restriction of free speech reflects the power and serves the interests of one particular, highly-visible, economically well-endowed, socially privileged, and politically powerful ethnic group? Curiously enough, at least one prominent Jewish spokesman fears that to make “condoning, denying, or downplaying the Holocaust” a criminal offence will not be good for the Jews. Nevertheless, Carolyn Yeager, an American blogger of German ancestry, has documented the widespread support for such legislation within the organized Jewish community in Canada.

 

[mrolonzo]

I don't know if I should have posted here on in the Canada failed state thread but I spotted this article about Holocaust discussion in Canada.

Canada Outlaws 'Condoning, Denying or Downplaying' the Holocaust Mythos

Jewish Political Theology Enshrined in the Criminal Code

www.unz.com

Fundamental freedoms

Everyone in Canada is free to practise any religion or no religion at all. We are also free to express religious beliefs through prayer or by wearing religious clothing for example. However, the Charter also ensures that others also have the right to express their religious beliefs in public.

We’re free to think our own thoughts, speak our minds, listen to views of others and express our opinions in creative ways. We’re also free to meet with anyone we wish and participate in peaceful demonstrations. This includes the right to protest against a government action or institution.

However, these freedoms are not unlimited. There may be limits on how you express your religious beliefs if your way of doing so would infringe on the rights of others or undermine complex public programs and policies. For example, you may have religious reasons to object having your photo taken for your driver’s license, but this requirement may be linked to a need to stop others from unlawfully using your identity. In addition, the Charter does not protect expression such as hate speech that involves threats of violence or that takes the form of violence.

The media also have certain fundamental freedoms, and are free to print and broadcast news and other information. The government can only limit what the media prints for justifiable reasons set out in law. For example, a magazine cannot print slander, which is an untrue statement about a person that may hurt his or her reputation.

 

[Aves]

Pretty funny post where you're admonishing one person for calling another emotional and then accusing that same person that they're getting too worked up.

True, but Stans response to mrolonzo wasn’t emotional.

Stan is like 70% making good points and 30% getting into useless arguments. I remember some pages back when Stan, mrolonzo, and Bonesjones just called each other slurs over and over again.

 

[mgc]

To be fair to stan, it is difficult for these discussions not to devolve into insults because most "affirmers" (if we are being honest) see the deniers as akin to flat-earthers. And it is hard for us to express that in non-insulting language.

I do not understand how one can take seriously even the brightest deniers like Mattogno. After all, Mattogno (as a way of getting around the problem of millions of Jews disappearing in the Nazi camp system) embraces the ridiculous "resttlement" conspiracy theory, claiming that about 2 million Jews were transited out of the camp system and resettled.

In other words, he is claiming that there existed a community of millions of Jews in the 1940s (the resettled Jews), but that this community (which, at about 2 million, would have had more people than the entire country of Estonia) somehow left behind exactly zero infrastructure (no buildings or ruins of buildings), economic activity (no records of imports of the sort such a community would need to survive), communications (no records of letters or radio transmissions within this supposed community of 2 million), or testimonial evidence of its existence (zero witnesses, German, Jewish, or otherwise).

In other words Mattogno (and Zo, who is by far the most well-read denier here) are claiming that there existed some kind of modern-day Atlantis in Europe in the 1940s (where it was, he cannot be sure).

That is flat-earth level shit.

 

[potato in mah painus]

"affirmers" (if we are being honest) see the deniers as akin to flat-earthers.

Its because huge lies have been pushed for narrative, political, and economic gain, to the point where what is in the books is fiction compared to what supposedly transpired. And what happens when discussion on this topic comes up?

Major platforms ban everyone involved.
Governments that have laws against even discussing this topic kick in doors.
In the few places where open discussion can be had, there are people like you and chugger who shit up the thread with the intent on derailing or 'owning the conspiratards'.

 

[mgc]

Actually laws against Holocaust denial mostly did not exist before the 1990s, and censorship of denial online was marginal in (for example) the 2000s. And still it was seen as flat-earth nonsense but everybody other than ideologically-motivated weirdos.

 

[BasedCentrist]

Fuck off with your gaslighting. You will get sentenced to prison in most western countries for even questioning the shlomocaust, and the stupid whataboutism doesn't help your argument either.

 

[potato in mah painus]

Actually laws against Holocaust denial mostly did not exist before the 1990s, and censorship of denial online was marginal in (for example) the 2000s. And still it was seen as flat-earth nonsense but everybody other than ideologically-motivated weirdos.

Almost like the laws rose at the same time the flow of information became uncontrollable, also funny that those laws only apply to the holocaust.
And not Holodomor, Flat earth, Tiananmen Square, Roswell... and so on.