Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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I always viewed the suggestion spell as doing something the NPC might be inclined to do already. I was never a fan of "me cast cantrip-level spell get god-tier results" thing.
I mean, if its super valuable or really important the guy won't part with it for even a second.

I know i'm late, but I want to say that even with my sense of humor and irreverence for our modern societies unquestionable Sacred Cows like the Holocaust, the concept of fighting ghosts at Auschwitz for treasure is absolutely tasteless and actually offended me. And it's just a bad idea for an RPG as well.
I don't find "Fighting jewghosts in Auschwitz for their jewgold" necessarily beyond the pale, what struck me was just how mundane and bland it was. Its not even trying for humor, and its also not going far enough the otherway in create any shock. It even lacks the Turner Diaries fishhook of "Lol the holocaust wasn't real but also bust Hilter's gassed jewghosts". And you get one artifact that, I don't read Shadowrun stat blocks so good, but doesn't seem all that great.

Have the ghosts of Waffen SS condemned to contain the seething pit of pain and hate they helped create in life for all eternity - literally face to face with their victims constantly with no end in sight. Give me the camp commandant who's lost his shit and is planning to break the wards to contain the wrathful ghosts because the psychic equivalent of Chernobyl is better than another century of this shit.
Hell, at least go deep tracks and have it be Katyn or Cambodia.
 
I mean, if its super valuable or really important the guy won't part with it for even a second.


I don't find "Fighting jewghosts in Auschwitz for their jewgold" necessarily beyond the pale, what struck me was just how mundane and bland it was. Its not even trying for humor, and its also not going far enough the otherway in create any shock. It even lacks the Turner Diaries fishhook of "Lol the holocaust wasn't real but also bust Hilter's gassed jewghosts". And you get one artifact that, I don't read Shadowrun stat blocks so good, but doesn't seem all that great.

Have the ghosts of Waffen SS condemned to contain the seething pit of pain and hate they helped create in life for all eternity - literally face to face with their victims constantly with no end in sight. Give me the camp commandant who's lost his shit and is planning to break the wards to contain the wrathful ghosts because the psychic equivalent of Chernobyl is better than another century of this shit.
Hell, at least go deep tracks and have it be Katyn or Cambodia.
Reminds me of a writeup I did for Osowiec (where the infamous 'attack of the dead men' occurred).

While it's a tourist attraction, it's also patrolled by Russian ghosts. The ghosts are typically non-hostile even to foreigners -- but they really don't like Germans and it behooves Germans to not linger, especially after nightfall.
 
I mean, if its super valuable or really important the guy won't part with it for even a second.


I don't find "Fighting jewghosts in Auschwitz for their jewgold" necessarily beyond the pale, what struck me was just how mundane and bland it was. Its not even trying for humor, and its also not going far enough the otherway in create any shock. It even lacks the Turner Diaries fishhook of "Lol the holocaust wasn't real but also bust Hilter's gassed jewghosts". And you get one artifact that, I don't read Shadowrun stat blocks so good, but doesn't seem all that great.

Have the ghosts of Waffen SS condemned to contain the seething pit of pain and hate they helped create in life for all eternity - literally face to face with their victims constantly with no end in sight. Give me the camp commandant who's lost his shit and is planning to break the wards to contain the wrathful ghosts because the psychic equivalent of Chernobyl is better than another century of this shit.
Hell, at least go deep tracks and have it be Katyn or Cambodia.
Its only narrative hook is "Hey let's go to the Concentration Camp, there's a lot of ghosts there so watch out, it may be SpOOkY!" It's more shocking that someone wrote this, edited it, and approved it for publishing and no one in the whole process said "Hey maybe having a really pointless Auschwitz reference that is written like a middle schoolers understanding of the Holocaust is a really, really, bad idea."
 
Its only narrative hook is "Hey let's go to the Concentration Camp, there's a lot of ghosts there so watch out, it may be SpOOkY!" It's more shocking that someone wrote this, edited it, and approved it for publishing and no one in the whole process said "Hey maybe having a really pointless Auschwitz reference that is written like a middle schoolers understanding of the Holocaust is a really, really, bad idea."
"This essay is about the second World War, where the US went against Germany and Japan. The war was a very tragic event with guns, insults, and... yuck!"
 
Today I did an evil thing on a bit of a whim and I'd like to share and get some ideas:

Inbetween the main questline I run short (2-4 sessions max) "personal" questlines, centered around one of the PCs, giving them room to develop their character:

The party's current goal is the retrieval of a magic painting, stolen from an incredibly rich (evil) noble - the rogue was framed for the theft by a former thief's guid associate / slighted love interest.
The painting is entitled "Self-Portrait" and being sold at a black market auction for the very rich. The party successfully infiltrated the auction. The gnome warlock even managed to get himself locked in the vault - he botched his initial interaction with the painting and lost half his hp, though the rest of the party obviously does not know this. As he does not know how to handle it (failing 3 chances at DC10 checks), he waits to see how the people handling the auction will transport it.

When the painting is brought into the auction room as the final item, I emphasize that everyone feels a horrible pit in their stomach. The auctioneer advices everyone present, that those of a more fragile and optimistic nature (read: good or neutral aligned) should avert their gaze. All the guards do so.

The painting is unveiled and it is a portrait of a wizard lacking an eye and a hand - because of course it's him.

I ask the players one by one whether or not they averted their gaze. Most did. Rogue, Sorcerer, Warlock. The latter 2 need to roll (cause magic) and save just fine.
The paladin struggles and feels like a voice within is mocking him, his tenants, his deity. He saves against looking up but does so anyway, infuriated - he tells me he's not gonna let a fucking painting insult Torm. He looks at the portrait and Vecna's remaining eye locks on him. He fails his wisdom save, but just barely - he feels momentarily as if a knife was cutting through a thin strand of a shimmering silver thread, suddenly exposed - a thread he never knew he cherished above all else (he basically has to roll whether he can channel divinity or smite for a bit). So far, so good/okayish (though the paladin, who is not a regular, is now poised to divine smite the painting into smithereens, potentially ruining any chance of retrieving it).

HOWEVER ...

The happy go lucky bard has procured opera glasses to ensure he gets an extra good look. Not only does he look at the portrait with total clarity, he CRITICALLY FAILS his wisdom save. I had frankly not anticipated this and when prompted what happens answered thusly:

"Magnified through the opera glasses, you see a single eye of purple, - you seem to fall within its gaze. You hold your breath for an endless moment, suspended in an infinite void, but then you snap back, the opera glasses dropping from your suddenly powerless hands.
As you take breath, you realize that all you love and all you will love is fated to be dust flowing through your fingers. All you cherish, all you desire, is a flicker of a candle, snuffed out by a single gust. You are alone. You were always alone. You are powerless. You will always be powerless."

And the next time he had to cast, his spell came out like normal (I don't want to cripple him mechanically) - but there was no rhythm, there was no song - because Vecna has taken music from him.
This is where I ended the session.

I feel this would be a wonderful way to start the next PC questline, centered around the bard - but I'm unsure how to proceed. How can the bard get his literal groove back?
 
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And the next time he had to cast, his spell came out like normal (I don't want to cripple him mechanically) - but there was no rhythm, there was no song - because Vecna has taken music from him.
This is where I ended the session.

I feel this would be a wonderful way to start the next PC questline, centered around the bard - but I'm unsure how to proceed. How can the bard get his literal groove back?

The bard has now become a Slam Poet.
I think this is one of those teaching moments.
 
I always viewed the suggestion spell as doing something the NPC might be inclined to do already. I was never a fan of "me cast cantrip-level spell get god-tier results" thing.
It turns out that there's a lot of debate on what exactly you can get away with with suggestion, helped in no small part by WotC not really deciding to do any major clarifications beyond "let the DM decide." That really doesn't help address the intended limitations.

Part of my argument against the player was that if suggestion were as powerful as he implied, there would be no need for stronger charm spells because you could just suggest the big bad to hand over the McGuffin and call it a day, the existence of stronger spells implying that lower level spells couldn't do as much. But nope, he continued to insist that as long as you weren't actively trying to tell someone to kill himself, you'd be just fine.
Leave to the DM, of course. FWIW, I've had similar situations come up, and my answer is always, "that's more appropriate for Dominate Person." The knight in the RAW example presumably does not immediately demand her horse back (IMO, it's also a terrible example, as the soy-fueled types who wrote the rules probably do not have any idea just how expensive a horse actually is). A reasonable request in this situation might be, "Give the ring for safekeeping - this area is dangerous, and if you get eaten by a grue, it could easily fall into the wrong hands. I'm quite a bit better at handling adversity than you, as you have seen."
See, with regards to the PHB example, in theory you could potentially make it work, perhaps by playing on the knight's sense of honor and chivalry ("the poor are in dire need of your horse, ride off and give it to the first you've seen"). It wouldn't be something likely they'd do, again considering how important it would be to them, but in a time of desperate need, they might part ways with it. This was another point in our discussion, where I argued that "you really don't want to fight us and die, get out of here" was a reasonable suggestion that appeals to one's self-preservation instincts, but he replied that by my interpretation, it wasn't reasonable at all to abandon a fight you're in the middle of.

Ironically, your formulation of a suggestion would be terrible for him to try. Thus far, the NPC has been a hell of a lot more useful than the wizard, which is part of why my bard was pissed at him. At the start of combat with the Red Wizards, we were both at the top of the initiative order, with him going first. All the wizards were clustered together, it was the perfect opportunity to drop an AoE. So what does he do? Wastes his first turn flying away, then when I try to hit them with Hunger of Hadar and get counterspelled, he doesn't counter the counter (probably wouldn't have worked anyway since that counter would be countered by a different wizard, but it wouldn't have hurt). He's not completely useless, but everyone else does a lot more while he's safely hovering above the battlefield, and if things had started looking grim he would 100% have bailed. (The irony that he said that abandoning a fight was not reasonable is not lost on me.)

He's already committed to ditching this character one way or the other, I just think it'd be stupid to let him waltz off with an artifact due to a rules interpretation that might be RAW, but certainly doesn't feel like RAI.
I feel this would be a wonderful way to start the next PC questline, centered around the bard - but I'm unsure how to proceed. How can the bard get his literal groove back?
The bard has now become a Slam Poet.
I think this is one of those teaching moments.
I like this idea myself. Nothing says a bard has to specifically play music to have their spells work, and it certainly makes for an interesting story. And it was Vecna that took his music? Good luck getting that back until much later (I'm assuming the party isn't very high level yet).

That said, if you wanted to work this into a questline, perhaps it's not literally Vecna who created the portrait, but another powerful wizard that used Vecna's notoriety to make the painting more valuable. The questline could involve researching the painting and its origins, then tracking down the wizard in his lair and finding a way to retrieve the bard's musical ability. The climactic showdown has the bard finally regaining his lost hope and belting out a power ballad that melts the wizard's face off.

And you can always go with a cheesy "the music was inside you all along" reveal at the end if you want, but that's up to you.
 
I mean, if its super valuable or really important the guy won't part with it for even a second.


I don't find "Fighting jewghosts in Auschwitz for their jewgold" necessarily beyond the pale, what struck me was just how mundane and bland it was. Its not even trying for humor, and its also not going far enough the otherway in create any shock. It even lacks the Turner Diaries fishhook of "Lol the holocaust wasn't real but also bust Hilter's gassed jewghosts". And you get one artifact that, I don't read Shadowrun stat blocks so good, but doesn't seem all that great.

Have the ghosts of Waffen SS condemned to contain the seething pit of pain and hate they helped create in life for all eternity - literally face to face with their victims constantly with no end in sight. Give me the camp commandant who's lost his shit and is planning to break the wards to contain the wrathful ghosts because the psychic equivalent of Chernobyl is better than another century of this shit.
Hell, at least go deep tracks and have it be Katyn or Cambodia.
I think you might find Charnel Houses of Europe to be a pretty tasteful take on the setting, which is actually kind of surprising for White Wolf. Makes sense for the game line it was made for to cover it too, since Wraith is pretty grim stuff.

In game system related news, I heartily recommend Gaslands if you like minis gaming. It's friendly on the budget, and has a variety of rules you can slowly add into the system as you go along, meaning it's quite customizeable. Also it allows you to play around in Death Races and all the crazy car fighting mechanics you can go into.

It's like Mad Max, Twisted Metal, Running Man, Grindhouse, and other crazy takes all in one. Did a little stream on it and everything.
 
And it was Vecna that took his music? Good luck getting that back until much later (I'm assuming the party isn't very high level yet).
It was a portrait that I figured he infused with a bit of his power after painting it - maybe feeds him back whatever it saw if he's on the material plane. Really, I just put it in to have an excuse for Vecna to know some of the party members (and maybe for some to hold a grudge since the portrait fucked with them) if I ever in the far future feel like using him. I tend to set up a couple of big bads over the course of the first 8 levels and then pick whichever one the party seemed to engage with the most.
Honestly I did not expect a player to look extra hard at it and critically fail their most important save - but I guess that's why you DM: Your players will always surprise you.
 
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It was a portrait that I figured he infused with a bit of his power - maybe feeds him back whatever it saw if he's on the material plane. Really, I just put it in to have an excuse for Vecna to know some of the party members (and maybe for some to hold a grudge since the portrait fucked with them) if I ever in the far future feel like using him. I tend to set up a couple of big bads over the course of the first 8 levels and then pick whichever one the party seemed to engage with the most.
Honestly I did not expect a player to look extra hard at it and critically fail their most important save - but I guess that's why you DM: Your players will always surprise you.
A fine idea to add to my collection. :)

@King Dead Regarding the Ring of Winter, I went poking around a bit.

It's not listed in the module, but every other reference notes that the Ring of Winter is a sentient evil artifact. That wizard's gonna get possessed.
 
It turns out that there's a lot of debate on what exactly you can get away with with suggestion, helped in no small part by WotC not really deciding to do any major clarifications beyond "let the DM decide." That really doesn't help address the intended limitations.

Part of my argument against the player was that if suggestion were as powerful as he implied, there would be no need for stronger charm spells because you could just suggest the big bad to hand over the McGuffin and call it a day, the existence of stronger spells implying that lower level spells couldn't do as much. But nope, he continued to insist that as long as you weren't actively trying to tell someone to kill himself, you'd be just fine.
You can always do my favorite acid test for mind control things:
"Would this work on the players?"
or more to the point, looking at the player "Would you fall for that?"

This was another point in our discussion, where I argued that "you really don't want to fight us and die, get out of here" was a reasonable suggestion that appeals to one's self-preservation instincts, but he replied that by my interpretation, it wasn't reasonable at all to abandon a fight you're in the middle of.
I also don't think its reasonable they'd abandon a fight they're in the middle of ... UNLESS they are very clearly on the losing end.
In this case, unless its a mook or someone press-ganged into Opfor, I don't think they'd punk out unless they are the only one left or very badly beaten up. Unfortunately morale doesn't exist in 5e.

I'd also take party reputation into consideration. If the party is known for accepting surrender, or letting people who throw down their weapons flee, and at the very least sending prisoners to the local magistrate for a trial, and the enemies know that, "Lay down your weapon and surrender, you know you'll be treated honorably" would sound very reasonable to someone, especially outnumbered and injured. OTOH if the party has been little murderhobos (and if the enemies know that) dying in chains being tortured rather than going down sword-in-hand sounds pretty unreasonable.

It was a portrait that I figured he infused with a bit of his power after painting it - maybe feeds him back whatever it saw if he's on the material plane. Really, I just put it in to have an excuse for Vecna to know some of the party members (and maybe for some to hold a grudge since the portrait fucked with them) if I ever in the far future feel like using him. I tend to set up a couple of big bads over the course of the first 8 levels and then pick whichever one the party seemed to engage with the most.
Honestly I did not expect a player to look extra hard at it and critically fail their most important save - but I guess that's why you DM: Your players will always surprise you.

A fragment of Vecna has stolen his music.
Said Fragment is in the painting.
The party cannot destroy the power in the painting without the bard permantly losing his music.
The power can be transfered (or can transfer itself) to another object though, and conquering the aspect of Vecna and forcing it into another object until the party can find a ritual to return it.
Look what I'm saying here:
End game of the side adventure is the Bard is now a rapper and he has a talking skull that beatboxes for him.
 
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This new tit scar obsession for the troons is so gross. I wish the Zipper tits would stop acting like self butchery is something to be proud of.
See previous post about Deaf Culture.
Its about being a special snowflake everyone has to pay attention to and play along with your fantasy, not equal rights or whatever.
It's all about the sexual thrill of knowing you hold utter control over a group of people who have to treat you special or be totally socially castrated. I don't let troons or their admirers sit at my table and I'm happier for it. Halfway considering banning women in general.
 
It's more shocking that someone wrote this, edited it, and approved it for publishing and no one in the whole process said "Hey maybe having a really pointless Auschwitz reference that is written like a middle schoolers understanding of the Holocaust is a really, really, bad idea."
Bold of you to assume anyone edits Shadowrun shit (although I definitely agree the writer at least should have realized why it's a bad idea). To give you an idea just how bad the quality of SR editing is I'm gonna show you some items from 5th and 6th edition sourcebooks.

Let's start with one of the most infamous in the SR community, the Ares Striker:
One of the most rugged and certainly the heaviest(in terms of weight) pistols on the market, the Striker is simplicity personified. Designed for ease of use, the Striker lacks any of the electronics that modern pistols employ, making it immune to hacking and malware. With its striker fire design and backstrap safety, there are no external hammers or levers, making for a sleek design that won’t snag on your clothes when it’s needed.
Now let's have a quick look at the artwork:
Ares Striker.JPG
So much for no external hammers, or sleek design.

Then there's the HK 82A1:
One of the smallest available grenade launchers, the 82A1 is primarily used by security forces to dispense gas grenades to quell riots, but it also
finds use as a support weapon with light infantry units. Tipping the scales at 2.5 kilos, the 82A1 weighs less than half as much as a standard grenade launcher and has considerably less bulk. Its compact design makes it less well-suited for longer-range engagements
The important part for this item though is not just the description for the statblock:
HK 82A1 stats.JPG
See the 1(b) ammo, that means single-shot break action. This is a picture of it:
HK 82A1.JPG
That look like a compact single shot break action to anyone, because it sure fucking doesn't to me.

These are just a few of the examples, there's fucking dozens more retarded choices. Now maybe it's just that artists aren't gun guys, not everything can be retarded and wrong, right? Au contraire, take a look at the Krime Wageslave car:
> Also only available in black. Guess Krime took Ford to
his word that they should only come in black.
> Clockwork
Krime Wageslave.JPG
They couldn't even be bothered to recolour the fucking car ffs

Now that might seem a little nitpicky since it's "just" art, although personally I'd disagree. However they show about the same level of care when writing the actual rules. For instance in 5E they introduced weapon modding by adding slots to weapons. Top, underbarrel, side, barrel, stock and internal. All mods had to go in one of these, however they didn't take into account that some weapons already come with shit in that slot, but by RAW they didn't count towards the limit. So you could buy an AK 98 which has an underbarrel grenade launcher, and then add on an underbarrel mod (including another fucking grenade launcher).

It's also not gotten any better over the years. I just got the newest book on Augmentations (which I missed the launch of because Catalyst absolutely refuse to actually market shit), and holy fuck is it bad. It has tranny shit that breaks decades of lore, which accidentally veers into tranny mocking territory without even realizing it, and it somehow still isn't the dumbest part of the book. I can do a write up if people are interested (and if I go buy some scotch before I start because I'd fucking need it).
 
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