Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

so why would you take it into a dungeon?

That's the point. Why would you? But to be fair to the PF Cavalier, its not a one trick pony like the Cavalier was in older editions of D&D, which quite literally was a one trick pony (since all it had was its mount). It does, as @Capsaicin Addict pointed out, have its Order, banner, Challenge and teamwork feats, which give some capabilities similar to a 4e Warlord. And, as a martial class, its still capable as a frontline fighter when necessary. Its just that you would do better getting an archetype that does away with the mount so you won't be beholden to it. Hell, even the base Cavalier isn't really worth playing. You need to get the Beast Rider archetype just to get any of the good mounts, like Tigers, elephants and Dinosaurs.

One is, and I know this just shocks everyone, not every adventure is in a dungeon, or even a building. Sometimes you're on the road with a caravan, sometimes you're climbing a mountain so you can bitchslap Karzoug the Titanic Ten-Thousand Year Old Faggot off his throne.

Not every adventure or long running campaign is indoors, but most of them are. The game is call Dungeons & Dragons for a reason. And if you are climbing a mountain, there is a good chance you won't be able to bring your mount with you unless it can fly.

Two, the point I was making wasn't if cavaliers themselves were a super duper class. The point was that anything a fighter could do -- especially in terms of fighting -- you could get more mileage out of with a cavalier.

While that might be the case, that says more about the fighter as a class than anything.

 

[Road Work Ahead]

Personally, I think you all are selling the PF1 fighter a bit short. Yes, it doesn't do anything super flashy, but it has some good archetypes and you get a ton of feats to play around with.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

EDIT: Just thought of this. @Jet Fuel Johnny do you have mundane/alchemical crafting in your game? How do you handle it? Because the 3E/PF1 crafting rules are complete ass.

There was a LOT of great articles over the years in The Dragon magazine about alchemy and crafting. I combined a bunch of them into kind of a system with a lot of room for slippage. Plus, there's a 3.5? book that has a huge section of rare or unusual parts.

I have the articles on weeds and plants and stuff for herbalism done up, with minimum ranks of stuff. I have articles on powers inherent to some gems. I've got articles and 30 years worth the dicking around for what various parts of strange creatures can do.

It's pretty catch as catch can for it, but the players seem to like it.

XP and throwing money at it doesn't work. Time and exotic ingredients are needed. Some stuff can be done by the village healer with herbs, other stuff requires big time stuff. (Dragon's teeth, shadow dust, the reflection of a sigh, baby's breath caught on silk, stuff like that is mid-grade)

I've had groups that preferred herbalist and village healer potions for cure light/moderate wounds, restoration, and rejuvenation potions. Some village healer out in bum-fuck Cormyr is more trustworthy than some slick alchemist in Waterdeep.

Plus, it usually keeps longer and tastes better too.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Personally, I think you all are selling the PF1 fighter a bit short. Yes, it doesn't do anything super flashy, but it has some good archetypes and you get a ton of feats to play around with.

Part of the problem the fighter has is that it really lacks anything in the base class beyond 'hit things'. The lack of skill ranks as well as the way the attack/full attack/BAB system works act as heavy limiters.

(Fuck you, Monte Cook, for pushing for martial nerfs, you fucking hack.)

And yeah, the archetypes might be okay... but man, it really doesn't say much that the solution is 'play a variant archetype'. It reminds me of how every fucking monk guide prior to Unchained started with 'take the Qinggong archetype'.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

Another thing that hurt the fighter was the abandonment of PrC's.

Those were originally a way to add all kinds of cool powers to martials later on, while still allowing the standard sword and board fighters.

But the grognards and the people who didn't play started whining that they had to qualify for it. That "oh, you have to specialize and plan in advance to get this specialized class with these cool powers."

And wizards, like always, immediately catered to the retards who didn't play and didn't buy books.

(Fuck you, Monte Cook, for pushing for martial nerfs, you fucking hack.)

Would it surprise you to know he's a redhead with curly hair and a manlet whose wife orders him around in public and doesn't like to look people in the eye?

His excuse for nerfing martials was "a fighter can swing a sword all day but a wizard has limited magic each day, so in combat the martial classes are overpowered due to having high AC, high HP, and the ability to attack multiple times in a single round!"

he was also a big believer in system mastery and the fact some of the feats and feat trees were obvious traps is because of him.

TLR: Monte Cook is a manlet faggot.

 

[Adamska]

On Pathfinder 1e: In my experience, it has the same flaws that DnD 3.5e has. It's just they move around and hide them behind features that disguise them. Fighters are still just as crap in it as they are in 3.5. Possibly worse since later books in 3.5 at the very least added feats like martial studies that a Fighter could take to give them Weeb Fightin' Magicks. Then again, you could just play a warblade.

On Alchemy: I always just chuck out exp cost. I get why the system does it, because it's supposed to sort of mimic how in LotR you put some of your will and self into a place in order to create a wonder. But it makes it very unappealing to players. Johnny has the right of it in that you need time, experience, experimentation, and equipment to do it right.

I also tend to like the very old school miscibility table for this, since it adds to that spirit; sometimes the elixir you made is just plain poison due to interactions you didn't know about or you were dumb and didn't prep your lab from contaminants. Also you need to give some ability for players to try and make a potion with new effects at times, especially for poisons given how limited of a selection and shit their DRs tend to be. I've not said no to people studying and designing spells either, though I've only ever had this happen once (our wizard at the time wanted to make an arcane healing spell because our Cleric went 'lol what healing?').

On not using PrCs: Kind of disagree on this one. Fighter PrCs just were made fucking pointless since you either could just play a better base class, or because that PrC works even better with another martial class than it does fighter. Either that or the PrC just wasn't that good.

I've covered quite a few of them, and in my experience, you will almost never run into a good PrC designed for fighter that can not be entered into with a better martial like Barbarian or Warblade, or even partial casters like Ranger.

 

[anti SJW]

 

[Snekposter]

His excuse for nerfing martials was "a fighter can swing a sword all day but a wizard has limited magic each day, so in combat the martial classes are overpowered due to having high AC, high HP, and the ability to attack multiple times in a single round!"

Meanwhile, Fireball exists.

On Pathfinder 1e: In my experience, it has the same flaws that DnD 3.5e has. It's just they move around and hide them behind features that disguise them. Fighters are still just as crap in it as they are in 3.5. Possibly worse since later books in 3.5 at the very least added feats like martial studies that a Fighter could take to give them Weeb Fightin' Magicks. Then again, you could just play a warblade.

Christ, martials are generally terrible. I tried to play a gunslinger and just used them as a quasi-ranger because guns will run you an arm and a leg if you want to keep in ammo (which is ironically the exact opposite of IRL where bulk-mixed powder and lead shot were cheaper than hand-crafted arrows), and the range and reload meant you'd be better off with a bow until they get in that first range bracket where you have no hit penalties and also roll against touch. But then unless they're dead you need to switch to a backup because they're right in your face and unless you're at high levels you're dealing with reload penalties.

 

[Knud Lavard]

Apologies in advance for the autism and possible derail.

I've wanted to run a post apocalypse game for a long time, but for various reasons it's looking like that will never happen. I want to share my ideas and see what you guys think.

Spoiler: The idea

The game would've taken inspiration from the likes of Mad Max and Fallout, but with urban environments instead of desert.

The exact cause of the apocalypse isn't important, but if asked I was going to say World War 3. Nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons have created the various monsters and mutants that are in the wasteland.

The PCs are normal people who have to take part in a road trip to recover some MacGuffin. When they reach it, they learn that it isn't an object but a person that they have to escort back to start or to some other location with the military chasing them.

The game would've been a hex or point crawl with a focus on the road trip and resource management. To cut down on book keeping, scavenging would've had a single generic resource. Maybe two if I wanted players to make tough choices about where to raid.

Highways would've been the fastest, most direct rout but backroads would have had more scavenging opportunities. Enemies would've been the usual fare for such settings. Bandits, zombies, mutants, giant insects, that kind of thing.

That all sounds a bit generic, which might be why no one was interested. Maybe if I added magic or psionics it might have got more interest, but I didn't want to ruin the tone.

I had some ideas for a Mad Max style campaign some years ago that I wrote down. It was the original Mad Max and a bit of Fury Road set in a S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-like Zone environment - the idea being that, while the rest of the world was a bad place with weird stuff happening in it, this was the worst. These are just basic ideas, so it can easily be rewritten into something else, but here are some basic campaign notes which you might draw some inspiration from:

Spoiler: Factions - those relying on an outside high-tech world/STALKER-esque setting are marked with ***

*** AUGS
The Augs are scattered around the Crucible, but tend to congregate around population centres with skilled Nutters. Augs are obsessed with mechanical prosthetics, and seek to replace their weak organic vessels with superior mechanical ones. Most Augs can only afford simple prosthetics however, the most widespread prosthetics being simply-made hands and lower legs. Very affluent Augs may only have an organic ‘core’, consisting of the head and torso of the Aug, with the rest of their limbs having been replaced by complex mechanical prosthetics. These more advanced prosthetics are stapled to existing nervous tissue and muscles, and can be manipulated more or less like the original limb. The only ‘real’ effects of these changes is the loss of kinaesthetic and sensory input – for better and for worse.

DEATH SEEKERS
The Death Seekers are people who have taken the risk/reward ratio to an extreme. Suicide jobs don’t exist to Death Seekers – there are only jobs with a high payoff and a low payoff, no matter the risk of injury. These maniacs don’t fear death, which has led to their name: Their absolute willingness to get rich or die trying makes it seem like they seek death. Death Seekers usually travel around in large bands looking for jobs that no one else want to take – and if there aren’t any, then they’re not above resorting to banditry and extortion. Due to this, they tend to get on the bad side of most organized groups, especially the Road Kings, Wraps, and Boots

*** DRONES (BOOTS, MERCS)
The Drones, also known as Boots (though they call themselves Mercs), are people from the outside world who have been sent by influential people to oversee things in the Crucible. Typically, they are sent to protect Road Kings who have fallen prey to a lot of raids, or to keep the order in areas that have become unproductive due to lots of infighting. They field the best arms and vehicles around, and usually wear expensive combat armour. While they look down upon the other denizens of the Crucible, they are sometimes willing to go against their orders if they think they can make a profit. Having these guys on your tail is a sign that you’ve messed up – and that you’re not going to be living much longer. Due to their arrogant and treacherous nature and willingness to use (deadly) force to get what they want, they’re universally despised by the rest of the groups – even those they sometimes help.

*** FREAKS
Freaks are spread all over the Crucible, but especially so in areas that are experiencing high anomaly activity. The Freaks want to obtain, understand, and harness the power of the various artefacts found in the Crucible. Despite being called Freaks, they’re quite level-headed compared to other fringe groups, such as the Wraps and the Sufferheads. Rather, their name is based on the fact that long-term exposure to the heightened levels of radiation in anomaly zones, as well as the powers of the artefacts themselves, have changed the Freaks. Some of these changes are minor, like a general state of enfeeblement or loss of hair. Some veteran Freaks are horribly malformed however, with tumours all over their body, or rock-like growths sprouting from beneath their skin.

NUTTERS
Nutters are fixated on everything mechanical, but where the mechanical obsession of the Augs is centred on integration of the mechanical, the Nutters focus more on the creation and maintenance of it. Thus, Nutters can usually make a decent living off their mechanical prowess by aiding the other denizens of the Crucible with the maintenance and customisation of vehicles and weapons, all while humming with glee as they do so. Due to their large wealth and desirable skills, Nutters have a large amount of power simply because other groups can’t afford want to mess with them.

ROAD KINGS
The Road Kings rule the trade routes that go from city to city. They are also the only ones who can and may trade with the outside world. They tend to be very greedy, but maintain good relations with most groups due to their connections. They refuse to deal with the Death Seekers due to their continuous raids on Road King caravans, and as a result of these raids, they often hire Sufferheads or people from other groups to help protect their merchandise. They sometimes trade with the Wraps, usually offering imports at a premium in exchange for rare artefacts. They are also infamous for exploiting Scavvies and their limited knowledge of the Crucible, usually turning a very tidy profit off this.

SCAVENGERS
Scavengers, also referred to as Scavvies, are newcomers to the Crucible. They come from other areas of the world, and are dropped off in the so-called Dumps, which are usually established towns with a lot of work to be done. The Scavvies aren’t a group so to speak, but rather a term for newcomers who haven’t affiliated themselves with a group yet.

SCRAPPERS
The Scrappers are a loose collection of various groups that aim to turn over whatever they can find for a quick paycheck. A band of Scrappers is usually led by a Scrap King, who takes a cut from scrapping operations and in turn supplies information and jobs. Most denizens of the Crucible are Scrappers, and they have no real cultural traits that make them special. Despite mostly dealing in scrap, most Scrappers would not think twice about trying their luck with anomalies, if such an opportunity were to present itself.

SPEEDS
The Speeds can be seen as a subculture of the Scrappers, as they also make their living by scrapping. Speeds, however, are constantly scouting and looking for fresh scrap spots, and when word reaches town about one of these, they’re the first ones to reach them. They work by getting to these spots first, and grabbing the easiest and most valuable components and artefacts before they meet resistance. As soon as other groups show up, they make a mad dash to sell off what they’ve found – and as their vehicles are built for speed rather than carrying, they can outrun any that give chase.

SUFFERHEADS
The Sufferheads make up a cult in which pain is the main focus. Sufferheads usually go about this by cutting off pieces of their skin, and then scrubbing an irritant (typically petrol) into the wound. The pain sustained during these rituals are supposed to teach Sufferheads to ignore surges of pain. And as Sufferheads continue scratching their irritant-filled wounds for many weeks, they also inflict an almost constant source of pain, which is supposed to make them ignore pain over longer periods of time. When an area has healed fully, the Sufferhead has a new scar to show off, and will normally set about creating a new one. Status and respect is achieved among the Sufferheads through scarification, but martial contests and even torture-based competitions are also known to be part of Sufferhead society. Unlike other factions, mock battles to assert dominance and control are rarely conducted.

*** WRAPS
The Wraps are an isolated group that lives in far-off parts of the Crucible. They rarely trade or work with other groups and tend to keep to themselves, are fiercely territorial, and assault anyone who dare enter their territory. They mainly clash with Speeds who catch wind of a good scrap spot in their territory, Freaks that are looking for anomaly zones, or Death Seekers that have been hired to steal from or disrupt them in some way. Their name derives from their distinct clothing, which is defined by the cloth wrap they wear on their heads to protect them from the sun as well as sandstorms. While most outsider interactions with Wraps occur at small scouting camps, they are rumoured to have hidden cities.

Spoiler: Faction Relations Chart

The chart above shows what the group in the row thinks of the group in the column


A red square signifies a hostile relationship, in which the group is openly hostile towards the other group
An orange square signifies a strained relationship, in which the group actively tries to avoid trading or working with the other group
A yellow square signifies an unsympathetic approach, in which the group only wants to work with the other group if it benefits them to do so
A light green square signifies a neutral approach, in which the group does not have any objections to working or trading with the other group
A green square signifies a friendly approach, in which the group seeks to work and trade with the other group

Spoiler: Faction Organization

If you're doing a journey from X to Y, I would have a few key resources be part of the journey. Give party members unique roles: responsible for keeping the vehicles running, responsible for provisions, responsible for keeping armaments working, responsible for healing injuries, etc. Make 'scrap' be something that the dedicated mechanic of the group should always advocate for getting as it means fewer problems in vehicular combat. A quartermaster-type character would instead want to ignore burnt-out wrecks, as they know the stakes of being dehydrated and hungry. They should bring up how the detour will leave the party exhausted and weak, whereas the mechanic should mention how they can get to point A much quicker if they can spend X 'scrap' on permanent upgrades. You want to avoid player arguments while promoting player discussions - let them change the story based on their decisions, rather than their dice rolls.

 

[Mr. Manchester]

Fighters in PF/3.5 are useful members of the party up until about 5th level and then their power curve starts to stagger until it rollercoasters down to nothing once you hit the double digits. A fighter with glaive and combat reflexes on a 4th level adventure is going to be a pretty useful member of the party both in terms of causing and soaking damage. At that level the wizard, who is already starting to show as a really powerful member of the party, is still a little worried about running out of spells. They can fuck over enemies a few times, magic their way out of problems a few times but there's a lot of room to worry.

Eventually when playing that fighter you have to realize that there will be a point where your best use is going to be a cheaper and more effective summon than the wizard wants to bother with. As the wizard, who despite having a giant pile of spells, you're still stingy and might realize that just casting telekensis on your fighter friend and hovering him around so he doesn't waste his multiple attacks is a cost effective alternative to wasting something more important. Doesn't feel all that good as a fighter though.

For all the mean talk about fighters though no one realizes the real victim here. The Rogue. Rogues deal about as much damage as fighters do but only if they meet special conditions. They're base attack is as good as the cleric's so even with a high dex (that doesn't add to damage get fucked lol) you're still struggling to hit things and when you do the fighter is still hitting them harder. You get a lot of skills, that's cool, but a lot of classes get a lot of skills and still fight better than you. There was a niche for them before you add in those traits that give free class skills but after that they became completely useless. You're also going to fucking die.

Then there's the monk, poor fuckers.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

You can make the rogue work, but it's annoying. It's a lot like playing the magus; you may find yourself forced to use a specific build. The rogue's trapfinding skill and ridiculous number of skill points do make them good for quiet skillmonkey work. And thank God that PF1 stripped the critical hit immunity from a lot of monsters; 3E rogues became practically worthless from the midgame on because so many critters had immunity to sneak attacks.

But compared to the monk, rogues look downright powerful. Dear God, the monk. It is very telling that the monk only became even vaguely viable in Unchained -- and it's still saddled with painful multiple-attribute dependency.

 

[Adamska]

I remember one campaign I was in I basically only had to cast one spell due to metamagic feats. Kelgore's Fire Bolt is broken horseshit as it is, since it's a level one spell that offers a guarantee'd hit even with reflex saves, it costs nothing to cast at all since it only requires ashes, and the damage makes it useful for the first third of a campaign since it goes up to 5d6 and scales per level until then. It gets more horseshit when you can sculpt the spell shape or change its element.

Fuck you ghosts I can hit you with fire made of soundwaves in the form of a cube. Eat shit and die again.

I've also never had issues with Rogues being useless, because their sort of shaky combat prowess is always made up for due to their out of battle utility. Also they tend to play better with PrCs anyway.

 

[Mr. Manchester]

You can make the rogue work, but it's annoying. It's a lot like playing the magus; you may find yourself forced to use a specific build. The rogue's trapfinding skill and ridiculous number of skill points do make them good for quiet skillmonkey work. And thank God that PF1 stripped the critical hit immunity from a lot of monsters; 3E rogues became practically worthless from the midgame on because so many critters had immunity to sneak attacks.

But compared to the monk, rogues look downright powerful. Dear God, the monk. It is very telling that the monk only became even vaguely viable in Unchained -- and it's still saddled with painful multiple-attribute dependency.

Definitely can, it just takes the right game to be in. If you're playing in something where you just can't go outside of combat then you're in some trouble. I played a rogue for 19 levels, the party thoughout most of that game were all martial classes so although I was not by far the best fighter, I managed to keep up. My big trick was buying a darkwood shield and just going sword and board It's weird how tanky you can get.

Another sad thing about the monk was they really lacked a lot of options to use good magic items. If you wanted to have a magic weapon then you're not getting a cheap natural armor bonus because they were both amulets. Even the unchained one has to deal with that unless the DM does something reasonable like letting you get cool tattoos or something.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Definitely can, it just takes the right game to be in. If you're playing in something where you just can't go outside of combat then you're in some trouble. I played a rogue for 19 levels, the party thoughout most of that game were all martial classes so although I was not by far the best fighter, I managed to keep up. My big trick was buying a darkwood shield and just going sword and board It's weird how tanky you can get.

Another sad thing about the monk was they really lacked a lot of options to use good magic items. If you wanted to have a magic weapon then you're not getting a cheap natural armor bonus because they were both amulets. Even the unchained one has to deal with that unless the DM does something reasonable like letting you get cool tattoos or something.

One of my personal favorite bits of idiocy about the monk in PF was that they weren't naturally proficient with weapons with the monk keyword (which allowed them to be used in a flurry of blows).

 

[Mr. Manchester]

One of my personal favorite bits of idiocy about the monk in PF was that they weren't naturally proficient with weapons with the monk keyword (which allowed them to be used in a flurry of blows).

From 3.0 on they technically weren't proficient in unarmed strikes and had nothing that said they didn't provoke attacks if they attacked unarmed. I don't care to look but I'm almost positive they never fixed it in pathfinder. Everyone just made the (correct and reasonable) assumption that they were but rules as written...

 

[Ghostse]

From 3.0 on they technically weren't proficient in unarmed strikes and had nothing that said they didn't provoke attacks if they attacked unarmed. I don't care to look but I'm almost positive they never fixed it in pathfinder. Everyone just made the (correct and reasonable) assumption that they were but rules as written...

Per the 3.5e SRD, Monks get Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st level, they are considered "armed" even with no weapon. PF SRD says the same.

 

[Wallace]

Fighters in PF/3.5 are useful members of the party up until about 5th level and then their power curve starts to stagger until it rollercoasters down to nothing once you hit the double digits. A fighter with glaive and combat reflexes on a 4th level adventure is going to be a pretty useful member of the party both in terms of causing and soaking damage. At that level the wizard, who is already starting to show as a really powerful member of the party, is still a little worried about running out of spells. They can fuck over enemies a few times, magic their way out of problems a few times but there's a lot of room to worry.

The solution I've heard of for this problem is E6. Cap the PCs levels at 6. I thought it was interesting, but then, I prefer a lower power game.

 

[Ghostse]

The solution I've heard of for this problem is E6. Cap the PCs levels at 6. I thought it was interesting, but then, I prefer a lower power game.

My solution for 4e was to cap players at 5. They could perform some sort of grand deed to get to lvl 6 (basically needed the blessings of a god to become lvl 6; or if they'd been good little gods botherers the whole time they probably already qualified). After that, when they'd normally level they get a stat increase instead.

 

[King Dead]

It's funny how a group of otherwise intelligent players can end up stumped by the most trivial of puzzles. An example from my last session:

Spoiler: and this is only floor 1

So, in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, there are various gates that Halaster set up to travel from floor to floor. If you can figure out how to activate one, you can use them too, but if it would take you to a level you're unprepared for, then the spirit of his former apprentice will block you from using it, though you can still look through. A wish spell is the only way to force your way through. (The book does say that, as a DM, you are allowed to waive this rule and let them pass at any time, particularly if you truly think your party can handle what's on the other side.)

So the party finds a mirror at the end of one of the hallways on the first floor. The mirror's frame has a single image engraved into it, that of a wizard holding a wand. The rule for the gate is simple: touch the mirror with any wand with at least one charge remaining, and it opens for one minute to an identical gate all the way down on level 10.

Now, in the previous session, the party happened to find a wand of secrets, so they already had everything they needed. One used detect magic, and I told them the mirror had an aura of conjuration magic to clue that it was a magic portal. They even remembered they had the wand, so I was sure that "touch the mirror with the wand" would come up as one of the things they'd try. Maybe not first or second, but surely they'd figure it out, right?

Here's a list of everything they tried that I can remember the first time they reached the mirror:

• Touch the mirror.
• Bang on the mirror.
• Hit the mirror with a warhammer. (Even crit and everything, hammer just bounced off.)
• Cast dispel magic. (Halaster's gates are immune.)
• Expend a charge of the wand at the mirror. (The wand only shows secret doors or traps, and the gate is neither. Also it didn't open.)

I will mention that one of the first things I heard one of my players say was "maybe try touching the mirror with the wand," but this suggestion apparently got lost in the shuffle, and he never brought it up again. That made it all the more maddening.

Eventually they gave up and continued elsewhere. Nearby, they found an alcove where, if you wore a bronze mask of Halaster that they previously discovered and entered it, you were teleported to a demiplane where a Halaster simulacrum would answer any three questions about the dungeon, lying on the first answer and telling the truth on the second and third. The party member who went through, having no idea what to ask, decided to burn two questions asking the simulacrum how to open the mirror (the third was about a couple of blocked passages they'd encountered earlier, which I told him had absolutely nothing behind). Well, at least it gave me an easy way to just tell the answer so they didn't get stuck, and the lie was obviously a lie ("speak friend and enter"), though I made sure to have the simulacrum ridicule him about how simple the puzzle was both times (hey, it's in character for Halaster).

So, he tells the party, they go back, touch the gate with the wand, and it opens. They try to go through, but they're blocked. They try basic methods of getting through first, like running at it and beating on it. They can see archery targets on the other side, so one member tries shooting a bolt through. Having no rule on whether objects can enter a gate that players can't, I decide to allow it. A couple of attempts and he hits a target, but he still can't enter. They then get the idea that they have to hit a bullseye to allow them to go through, so he tries again and again until the gate shuts. They reopen it and keep trying, with everyone just constantly firing bolts through the gate.

After about the third round of this, in the interest of moving the game forward, I decided to just have the voice of Halaster's apprentice spell it out for them and tell them telepathically, "How much more obvious do I have to make this? You're not ready to go through here! Turn back!" She's only supposed to message players if they attempt to go down the stairs to the next level early, with the magic block on the gates in theory acting as a sufficient deterrent to leave. Not for my party, apparently. They had a good laugh about it as they left and were intrigued by the fact it was a female voice.

I could have just let them through, but I had nothing prepared for level 10 (hell, I haven't even started prepping level 2), and it would assuredly have been a TPK. Maybe a good lesson on not taking strange portals, but there are gates I'd actually like them to traverse in the future, and I'd rather not embed the idea that all gates are instadeath in their minds so quickly.

What puzzles have your players fucked up royally?

 

[Ghostse]

It's funny how a group of otherwise intelligent players can end up stumped by the most trivial of puzzles. An example from my last session:

Spoiler: and this is only floor 1

So, in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, there are various gates that Halaster set up to travel from floor to floor. If you can figure out how to activate one, you can use them too, but if it would take you to a level you're unprepared for, then the spirit of his former apprentice will block you from using it, though you can still look through. A wish spell is the only way to force your way through. (The book does say that, as a DM, you are allowed to waive this rule and let them pass at any time, particularly if you truly think your party can handle what's on the other side.)

So the party finds a mirror at the end of one of the hallways on the first floor. The mirror's frame has a single image engraved into it, that of a wizard holding a wand. The rule for the gate is simple: touch the mirror with any wand with at least one charge remaining, and it opens for one minute to an identical gate all the way down on level 10.

Now, in the previous session, the party happened to find a wand of secrets, so they already had everything they needed. One used detect magic, and I told them the mirror had an aura of conjuration magic to clue that it was a magic portal. They even remembered they had the wand, so I was sure that "touch the mirror with the wand" would come up as one of the things they'd try. Maybe not first or second, but surely they'd figure it out, right?

Here's a list of everything they tried that I can remember the first time they reached the mirror:

• Touch the mirror.
• Bang on the mirror.
• Hit the mirror with a warhammer. (Even crit and everything, hammer just bounced off.)
• Cast dispel magic. (Halaster's gates are immune.)
• Expend a charge of the wand at the mirror. (The wand only shows secret doors or traps, and the gate is neither. Also it didn't open.)

I will mention that one of the first things I heard one of my players say was "maybe try touching the mirror with the wand," but this suggestion apparently got lost in the shuffle, and he never brought it up again. That made it all the more maddening.

Eventually they gave up and continued elsewhere. Nearby, they found an alcove where, if you wore a bronze mask of Halaster that they previously discovered and entered it, you were teleported to a demiplane where a Halaster simulacrum would answer any three questions about the dungeon, lying on the first answer and telling the truth on the second and third. The party member who went through, having no idea what to ask, decided to burn two questions asking the simulacrum how to open the mirror (the third was about a couple of blocked passages they'd encountered earlier, which I told him had absolutely nothing behind). Well, at least it gave me an easy way to just tell the answer so they didn't get stuck, and the lie was obviously a lie ("speak friend and enter"), though I made sure to have the simulacrum ridicule him about how simple the puzzle was both times (hey, it's in character for Halaster).

So, he tells the party, they go back, touch the gate with the wand, and it opens. They try to go through, but they're blocked. They try basic methods of getting through first, like running at it and beating on it. They can see archery targets on the other side, so one member tries shooting a bolt through. Having no rule on whether objects can enter a gate that players can't, I decide to allow it. A couple of attempts and he hits a target, but he still can't enter. They then get the idea that they have to hit a bullseye to allow them to go through, so he tries again and again until the gate shuts. They reopen it and keep trying, with everyone just constantly firing bolts through the gate.

After about the third round of this, in the interest of moving the game forward, I decided to just have the voice of Halaster's apprentice spell it out for them and tell them telepathically, "How much more obvious do I have to make this? You're not ready to go through here! Turn back!" She's only supposed to message players if they attempt to go down the stairs to the next level early, with the magic block on the gates in theory acting as a sufficient deterrent to leave. Not for my party, apparently. They had a good laugh about it as they left and were intrigued by the fact it was a female voice.

I could have just let them through, but I had nothing prepared for level 10 (hell, I haven't even started prepping level 2), and it would assuredly have been a TPK. Maybe a good lesson on not taking strange portals, but there are gates I'd actually like them to traverse in the future, and I'd rather not embed the idea that all gates are instadeath in their minds so quickly.

What puzzles have your players fucked up royally?

What I'd have done is quickly found the roughest-toughest monster, probably Halaster himself, and just have it curb stomp the party. Just absolute fucking carnage, every dirty trick he's got - he could one shot them with a fireball, all the better. Fudge the dice if you need to to make it end faster.
Then as the last party member falls over dead, I'd say "Your vision becomes blurry, you blink your eyes and you are standing in front of the mirror. You realize you had been standing there, watching as moving images showed you and your party members suffering a messy demise to Halaster. 'You are not yet ready to face him. Turn back' the apprentice aparition says, sadly shaking her head"