Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Well, that episode was... something. I feel bad for the poor costume staff trying to deal with Tilly. I totally skipped the Troony Trill scenes. We're still on our own ship, let's use the swords instead of the phasers we were going to leave on the ship. As someone on the crew pointed out Tilly was mostly useless in combat.
 
davids877 said:
Well, that episode was... something. I feel bad for the poor costume staff trying to deal with Tilly. I totally skipped the Troony Trill scenes. We're still on our own ship, let's use the swords instead of the phasers we were going to leave on the ship. As someone on the crew pointed out Tilly was mostly useless in combat.
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The one time her massive weight actually gives her an advantage and she's terrible at it. Also, back when Day of the Dove was made, the reason was because they couldn't afford to add the phaser beam effects in post. This show bothers to set up flamethrowers in the bulkheads and catering for Tilly.
 
I'm 10 seconds into the newest episode, and felt compelled to post here instead of continue watching. "Choose to live." and then stabbing someone for struggling as you rob them. How about using a weapon with a stun setting instead of a sword, or at least a blunt weapon if you cared so much, you dumb fucking space elf barbarian. Its 900 years after TNG or whatever. Imagine if Vulcans had some sort of enlightened non-lethal way to take someone out. She even uses it on the other person!
 
Michael Wade said:
There's a fair amount, but I feel like it wasn't that bad up till season 5. Even then, its pre trump liberalism, the kind that actually made "some" deal of sense.

Part of me thinks it got canceled because they were going too close to the sun. They have an episode in S4 where they had the balls to sue the DNC because some dumbass elector wouldn't go with his constituents and voted Obama instead of Hillary. This show is fucking hilarious in hindsight at times.
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Boston Legal was cancelled as paraphrasing here "they already told all of the jokes that could be told." As the mantra at the time of Obama's election being you must not speak ill of "the Won." Which everyone except Shatner were all too happy to obliged.
 
Anonziller said:
God B5 was kino. Crazy how one low budget wing commander looking ass show mogs 99 percent of Trek. Gene Roddenberry must be rolling in his commie sex pest grave.
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B5 is worth a watch, but Ds9 kicks its ass every way but sunday in my opinion. There's too many... moments in B5 that feel set up to establish an epic quote. Dont get me wrong I like B5 and it has some great episodes, but Ds9's writing felt more natural and it didn't have unfortunately large amounts of rushed pacing and executive fuck ups. But yeah STD certainly makes me appreciate the classics.
Uranus Pink said:
Boston Legal was cancelled as paraphrasing here "they already told all of the jokes that could be told." As the mantra at the time of Obama's election being you must not speak ill of "the Won." Which everyone except Shatner were all too happy to obliged.
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I remember they put a handful of digs at Obamas senate record in a S4 case or two before he won the election. Im sure that didn't go over terribly well with the "forgiving" dems. Honestly feel like the show could have gone another season or two. But (Counting the last season of "The Practice") 6 seasons is pretty dam respectable.
 
Michael Wade said:
B5 is worth a watch, but Ds9 kicks its ass every way but sunday in my opinion.
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DS9 suffers because a lot of its best moments were cribbed from B5. Ira is known to get testy when audience members ask him tough questions at cons:
  • Prussian-themed Centauri and Cardassians,
  • The recently-freed Narns/Bajorans
  • The black-suited Psi Corps/Section 31
  • Inscutable Vorlons/Prophets and their enemies, the Shadows/Pah-Wraiths.
  • Some characters have similar names: DS9's Dukat and B5's Dukhat, DS9's Leeta and B5's Lyta.
  • The premises have a great deal in common (a traumatized veteran of a battle for humanity's survival takes command of a space station and learns he has an important role in the prophecies of an alien religion), as do the war arcs.
There's too many moments in B5 that feel set up to establish an epic quote
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Nothing can compare to Zathras talking to dirt. A modern Plato.
 
Michael Wade said:
B5 is worth a watch, but Ds9 kicks its ass every way but sunday in my opinion. There's too many... moments in B5 that feel set up to establish an epic quote. Dont get me wrong I like B5 and it has some great episodes, but Ds9's writing felt more natural and it didn't have unfortunately large amounts of rushed pacing and executive fuck ups. But yeah STD certainly makes me appreciate the classics.
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I watched B5 again recently and found myself not enjoying it as much as I did back then, might have something to do with the fact that type of show is dime a dozen now and I can't help but see the roots of a lot of the trash scifi we get today. I've always preferred DS9 anyway but It feels bad that the absolute state of media has ruined it a bit for me.
maybe the remake will be good :optimistic:
 
Great President of McHell said:
I watched B5 again recently and found myself not enjoying it as much as I did back then, might have something to do with the fact that type of show is dime a dozen now and I can't help but see the roots of a lot of the trash scifi we get today. I've always preferred DS9 anyway but It feels bad that the absolute state of media has ruined it a bit for me.
maybe the remake will be good :optimistic:
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Well, if it were 10 years ago I'd say having it on the CW would at least make sure the actors and actresses were attractive even if the story was shit.
These days it's more likely we'll get the usual troon, diversity, etc hires.
 
JamesFargo said:
DS9 suffers because a lot of its best moments were cribbed from B5. Ira is known to get testy when audience members ask him tough questions at cons.
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They did had Babylon 5 story bible in their procession when JMS was pitching it to the network. Which they passed on it, handed back the B5 story bible and JMS went elsewhere to get Babylon 5 made. Later on DS9 just happens to come out right at the same time Babylon 5.
 
Uranus Pink said:
They did had Babylon 5 story bible in their procession
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I can't be the only one who noticed a similarity between Sheridan jumping over a balcony into the abyss and Sisko casting the book (and Dukat) into the flames in the Fire Caves.

At least Sheridan rode there on a ship. With DS9, we get a hard cut to the Fire Caves. Shit, how do we get Sisko to the Fire Caves? -Ron and Ira
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They have runabouts and transporters so we don't need to devote an entire act to showing someone transiting from a space station to a planet in the same star system.

Sheridan jumping into the abyss on Z'Ha'Dum was just Gandalf falling in Khazad-Dum, going beyond the rim was Frodo going into the Far West, the First Ones were the Valar, the return of the Shadows was the Return of the Shadow, Mister Morden was Mister Mordor going around doing Nazgul things, the Rangers were the Rangers but also Gandalfs ("We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass"), the Narn were named after the Sindarin word for saga, the Minbari-ensouled Jeffrey Sinclair becoming a Minbari culture hero and turning the war against the Shadows was the half-Elven Earendil becoming an Elven hero and turning the war against Morgoth, etc. If anything, DS9 was the less blatantly derivative of the two properties. Most of the other similarities, an oppressed race that recently liberated itself, interference by their former oppressors, and an international space station were already present in the 90s zeitgeist if not TNG itself.
 
Standardized Profile said:
They have runabouts and transporters so we don't need to devote an entire act to showing someone transiting from a space station to a planet in the same star system.

Sheridan jumping into the abyss on Z'Ha'Dum was just Gandalf falling in Khazad-Dum, going beyond the rim was Frodo going into the Far West, the First Ones were the Valar, the return of the Shadows was the Return of the Shadow, Mister Morden was Mister Mordor going around doing Nazgul things, the Rangers were the Rangers but also Gandalfs ("We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass"), the Narn were named after the Sindarin word for saga, the Minbari-ensouled Jeffrey Sinclair becoming a Minbari culture hero and turning the war against the Shadows was the half-Elven Earendil becoming an Elven hero and turning the war against Morgoth, etc. If anything, DS9 was the less blatantly derivative of the two properties. Most of the other similarities, an oppressed race that recently liberated itself, interference by their former oppressors, and an international space station were already present in the 90s zeitgeist if not TNG itself.
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This is why the "X ripped off X" argument is so tiring, all media is derivative in some way or another and if you are looking for similarities you will always find them. I don't doubt that some of the B5 bible might have been aped for DS9 but the elements supposedly stolen are the most generic things that you see frequently in other scifi and fantasy media, Splitting hairs over similar character names is also silly. In the end a good idea is worth nothing in comparison to good execution and its undeniable that the execution of these things in LOTR, B5 and DS9 are completely different and interesting in their own ways.
 
One of my favorite early DS9 episodes has to be Dramatis Personae. An alien artifact triggers tensions within the DS9 crew leading to an eventual stand off between Kira and the Bajorans and Sisko and O’Brien and their starfleet personnel. With Dax hanging around Kira ineptly nostalgic and bashir deviously concerned with station politics while working with Odo to solve the mystery.

While the concept is interesting itself in a sci fi sense(alien artifact repeats ancient conflict by triggering current tensions where activated whether that be the Klingon ship or DS9) it also does some interesting character work.

Firstly we get to see O’Brien the soldier, and Sisko the indifferent barbarian. It’s very similar to their portrayals in the mirror universe-O’Brien is hard nosed and somewhat of an imperialist and Sisko is either bored and indifferent but can be roused to violence when his pride is threatened or he is personally challenged in some way. We see a scheming Kira with a mean streak that we see later with the Intendant, and we see a more savvy if somewhat out of the loop Bashir. Dax just sort of fades off as too absorbed in nostalgia to help either side.

It would be my contention that “what if x happened” sci fi concept plots are the real core of Trek as a series, as opposed to serialized war arcs(well maybe not the whole core but an important part).

And this does a fairly good job establishing elements of the characters as they might either exist in another reality and circumstance or indeed later in the series.
 
JamesFargo said:
DS9 suffers because a lot of its best moments were cribbed from B5. Ira is known to get testy when audience members ask him tough questions at cons:
  • Prussian-themed Centauri and Cardassians,
  • The recently-freed Narns/Bajorans
  • The black-suited Psi Corps/Section 31
  • Inscutable Vorlons/Prophets and their enemies, the Shadows/Pah-Wraiths.
  • Some characters have similar names: DS9's Dukat and B5's Dukhat, DS9's Leeta and B5's Lyta.
  • The premises have a great deal in common (a traumatized veteran of a battle for humanity's survival takes command of a space station and learns he has an important role in the prophecies of an alien religion), as do the war arcs.

Nothing can compare to Zathras talking to dirt. A modern Plato.
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Razorfist has a interesting rebuttal to this argument.

https://twitter.com/RAZ0RFIST/status/1185063821037060096?s=20

https://twitter.com/RAZ0RFIST/status/1466193232216264711?s=20

And having seen both shows, I feel the similarity's are highly superficial. When you get to the meat and bones of the writing, both are leagues different in terms of handling and approach. So much so that even if Ds9 cribbed ideas, I feel it would be unfair to call it a rip off.


It's interesting to hear Bill Mumy talk about his experience on ds9. Ad libbing was not allowed at all, even for just one additional line.
 
JamesFargo said:
At least Sheridan rode there on a ship. With DS9, we get a hard cut to the Fire Caves. Shit, how do we get Sisko to the Fire Caves? -Ron and Ira
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Man, if only Star Trek had established some kind of... instant teleportation device or technology of some kind. Some kind of... beam-er.
 
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