Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Gaear Grimsrud said:
Like seriously, that new show looks like it's for kids, to introduce them to the property, but then why have Janeway there?

Kids aren't gonna give a fuck about Janeway. That's only there to try and trick adult Star Trek fans into watching it.
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Janeway is there to have a flimsy connection to the brand because the show is a generic kiddy space show with nothing to do with Star Trek.
 
draggs said:
The people making this modern shit are basically doomposters

They think right now is awful and they have no hope themselves

In their circles if you don't agree that right now is awful and there is no hope then you are complicit in the racism/sexism/transphobia/destruction of the earth/oppression/whatever
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One thing to keep in mind, too: A lot of this is trends. There's a trend where action movies are the big thing, then it might be horror or romcoms or what have you.

I think hopeful movies are just seen as kids stuff by a juvenile crowd of mainstream movie goers that sound kinda like this: "Look how brutal this is! This is awesome. Totally better than this lame kids stuff with all it's carebear happy endings!"

I think there is a cultural pessimism at play, too, don't get me wrong. Climate change, a strong focus on cultural divides and every election is treated completely unironically like final battle before [insert extremist group here] takes over [insert country here] and sells it to [the russians/the chinese/DA JOOS].
 
RomanesEuntDomus said:
One thing to keep in mind, too: A lot of this is trends. There's a trend where action movies are the big thing, then it might be horror or romcoms or what have you.

I think hopeful movies are just seen as kids stuff by a juvenile crowd of mainstream movie goers that sound kinda like this: "Look how brutal this is! This is awesome. Totally better than this lame kids stuff with all it's carebear happy endings!"

I think there is a cultural pessimism at play, too, don't get me wrong. Climate change, a strong focus on cultural divides and every election is treated completely unironically like final battle before [insert extremist group here] takes over [insert country here] and sells it to [the russians/the chinese/DA JOOS].
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I mean maybe hope is a theme? I think just strong writing with compelling characters is universal and eternal. There are other long standing tales from cultures that cross language barriers. There does seem to be a fairly universal standard for what is captivating, what is awesome. A word we used to describe it as:

Entertaining.
 
Flexo said:
I mean maybe hope is a theme? I think just strong writing with compelling characters is universal and eternal. There are other long standing tales from cultures that cross language barriers. There does seem to be a fairly universal standard for what is captivating, what is awesome. A word we used to describe it as:

Entertaining.
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Well lots of modern day stuff is Entertaining. End Game was well made movie that I enjoyed watching, BSG was (for the most part) a entertaining series that again I enjoyed.

But did any of them inspire me? Did any of them leave a mark upon our culture like Star Trek did?

I don't think so...they were definitely trendy but faded away with a few months after they were over.

Again...why? What sets the two big sci-fi IP's so apart? I'll say that there is great, awesome movies and TV series being produced but all of them to a last have fallen away.

Maybe people have changed, I joked about ADHD audiences bu maybe that's closer to the core? So much coming so fast you just consume and move on. Like a serial dater who can't get past the 3rd date because once you've had your fun you need your next fix ASAP?

Seriously..I dunno. It puzzles me. Are people so different now compared to the 80's and 90's? Or is it just that our culture no longer hold any lasting value as we hop from one trend to the next without pause, almost without thought?

Again...I dunno
 
I got this old used book called "The Monsters of Star Trek" from 1980. It's mostly text but it also has black and white photos. When the book was printed, the only Star Trek was TOS, TAS, and the first movie.

(Also at one point the copy I have was a library book in a US Army library in Germany.)
 
Flexo said:
I mean maybe hope is a theme? I think just strong writing with compelling characters is universal and eternal. There are other long standing tales from cultures that cross language barriers. There does seem to be a fairly universal standard for what is captivating, what is awesome. A word we used to describe it as:

Entertaining.
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Hope is a theme, but you need to keep in mind that hope is just one theme within entertainment. Think, for instance, of greek tragedies, which were a form of mass entertainment, think of Korean TV doramas (where just a light spray of rain will make a young lover cough up blood and die at the height of his or her beauty and passion, that leads to a sad and depressing end).

I think there is a general cultural pessimism at play currently, but in entertainment, it's always also a question of "What is the artsy-fartsy trend of the time?".
Like whedonistic quipping, forth wall breaking jokes or stuff like "subverting expectations" à la GoT), it's something that was successful somewhere and then was copied ad nauseum by the braindead monkey-see-monkey-do crowd, like Ruin Johnson that shat out "LOL DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING DID YA?!"-TLJ. Just like how many movies tried to copy Trantino's style or Home Alone.

The new cool thing is always something that differs from what came before. Sometimes it shifts from action to light-hearted, sometimes it shifts from happy end to sad end, now a shitton of people want to portray how evil DRUMPF and how bad everybody who isn't clad in rainbow flags is, how tainted society is... so that's what we get. Dark and gritty is flavour of the decade and it will be superceded by something else for one simple reason: At some point, the audience will lap up whatever feels "different", once this dark and gritty stuff runs dry. Wouldn't even surprise me if we'd see super sugary-sweet happy end stuff re-emerge once people crave distraction from the current general pessimism rather than wallowing in self-pity like they do now.
 
Sweet and Savoury said:
I dunno...the tinfoil part of me sez that this is deliberate.
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The tinfoil hat part of me sez ask Bezmenov.

@RomanesEuntDomus I like how you rate me autistic after posting that pseudointellectual babble. I provided a caveat with that 'tinfoil hat' bit, but honestly, the Bezmenov reference is still useful shorthand, regardless of any real or fictional soviet plot. You don't have to be a raving Alex Jones wannabe to get the impression that this shit is not just restricted to the latest consoomerist media and has been slowly building for decades. I'm just old enough to remember when equal rights and color-blindness were worthy ideals, to go easy on the gays because they just had a rotten time with that whole AIDS thing, and maybe we need to keep an eye on that greenhouse effect. Well what the fuck happened? Everything's ten times worse - no, not actually ten times worse in some cases better than ever: ten times more strident, politicized, antagonistic and cultish, with even Jean 'measure of a man' Luc being used to shriek at us from the 16:9 oblong pulpit.
Grimdark lefty media has been failing for years. I don't doubt studios are just chasing what they assume is the money, but when will they get the message already? Why do they keep allowing inexperienced dolts at the other end of the food chain to persuade them to insert drek - plain honest drek at best, childish agitprop at worst - into their products in place of quality, against all signs that it would be a bad idea? All signs outside twitter, anyway.

I think Nu-Trek, and things like it, do involve hope, indirectly. Especially in the case of Picard, they think they hold up a mirror to say "this is the way real life is now" - to wake up the sheeple and shame them into hoped-for change, following the example of Robocard, Sappho of Nine and chums. I just don't hold much confidence in what they hope for.
 
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Newman's Lovechild said:
Grimdark lefty media has been failing for years.
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Clint Eastwood could direct, and it wouldn't make any difference.

It's designed to be bland and unadventurous sci-fi. It succeeds admirably, and for that, it is rightly hated.

EmdkdylWMAAIuxx_1_50.jpg
 
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RomanesEuntDomus said:
At some point, the audience will lap up whatever feels "different", once this dark and gritty stuff runs dry. Wouldn't even surprise me if we'd see super sugary-sweet happy end stuff re-emerge once people crave distraction from the current general pessimism rather than wallowing in self-pity like they do now.
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I think that might already be starting to happen. Not only is The Orville crazy popular, but I've noticed that opinions on Voyager seem to be gradually turning around, being a little less "Weaksauce TNG rehash that wasted its potential" and more "Perfectly decent show that got unfairly shat on for two decades for not being grimdark enough". It's not one I personally agree with, but it shows the tide might be finally starting to turn.
 
I'm left ultimately wondering is that if Star Trek wanted a more Star Trek kids show, why didn't they give that treatment to lower decks? Perhaps the entire show is about cadets and ensigns going to be in the lower decks with learning the ropes of a Starfleet vessel with the eventual hope being that they'd managed to be bridge crew or at least important skilled workers. I don't think the kids are really watching some bastardized Rick and Morty type show and certainly know that adults won't really want that either.
 
HarryHowler said:
I think that might already be starting to happen. Not only is The Orville crazy popular, but I've noticed that opinions on Voyager seem to be gradually turning around
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VOY isn't actively harming the franchise anymore. You can binge watch it, and not have to slog through Neelix, or Janeway's holo-novels.

Janeway is teeth-grindingly terrible. But now we know it was a fault of direction, not execution.
 
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Plus as i keep trying to stress, you just needed to make Voyager serious, that does NOT mean grimdark. GalaxyQuest always being a favorite example. Heck DS9 wasn't even that grimdark as they had plenty of comedic episodes and even long running jokes like Morn never talking on screen.

Voyager did not have to be 7 seasons of "year of hell" it just had to actually follow its premise.

I get where the confusion comes from because the best moments of Voyager are episodes like Scorpion and Year of Hell. The problem is that those aren't the best because they are grimdark. Those are the best because they are following Voayger's premise. Why exactly it takes grimdark episodes to get the writers to finally buckle down? That's the million dollar question.

I still wish the Orville had just been a regular trek series. A series about "the other guys" in starfleet, that could have had a lot of opportunity. After all its a big galaxy. It would stand to reason that sometimes the feds may just need warm bodies to fill out a ship.
 
Newman's Lovechild said:
@RomanesEuntDomus I like how you rate me autistic after posting that pseudointellectual babble. I provided a caveat with that 'tinfoil hat' bit, but honestly, the Bezmenov reference is still useful shorthand, regardless of any real or fictional soviet plot. You don't have to be a raving Alex Jones wannabe to get the impression that this shit is not just restricted to the latest consoomerist media and has been slowly building for decades. I'm just old enough to remember when equal rights and color-blindness were worthy ideals, to go easy on the gays because they just had a rotten time with that whole AIDS thing, and maybe we need to keep an eye on that greenhouse effect. Well what the fuck happened? Everything's ten times worse - no, not actually ten times worse in some cases better than ever: ten times more strident, politicized, antagonistic and cultish, with even Jean 'measure of a man' Luc being used to shriek at us from the 16:9 oblong pulpit.
Grimdark lefty media has been failing for years. I don't doubt studios are just chasing what they assume is the money, but when will they get the message already? Why do they keep allowing inexperienced dolts at the other end of the food chain to persuade them to insert drek - plain honest drek at best, childish agitprop at worst - into their products in place of quality, against all signs that it would be a bad idea? All signs outside twitter, anyway.
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tl;dr lol.

I rated you autistic, cause "Hurr durr DA JOOS MUH CULTURAL MARXISM" is a tired old meme.

Also stop getting mad at spicey autism skittles mate :story:
 
Great President of McHell said:
And it was just as bad too, points for consistency!
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geordi.gif

"People generally knew when an episode was bad. We even had one director go to the producers and tell them he was ashamed to direct the episode where our crew turned into lizard people. The finale was one of those where you'd go down to the stage and see people shaking their heads while reading the script." - Doug Mirabello
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I'm sorry, but Braga is just terrible. He can't write solo, he can't co-write, he steered VOY into a ditch and completely botched the first 2 seasons of ENT, on top of concluding 18 years of Trek with one of its worst episodes ever - so bad that the crew hated him for it, and they had to hold a press conference before the episode even aired to address criticism. He's not "flawed" or "complex."
 
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