Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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HarryHowler said:
The main nature versus nurture plot theme was handled in the most dirt-simple manner possible, with Picard being a good person because he had a good upbringing, and Shinzon being a bad person because he had a bad upbringing. They could have at least done something like revealing Picard's childhood was actually kinda shitty because he had such a terrible relationship with his father and brother, making him want to be the better person, while Shinzon was adopted by a great Romulan family and had a comfortable upbringing, but the lack of challenge in his life just contributed to his inferiority complex.
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Too late to introduce a bad childhood for Picard. We already know what it was and making the disagreements he had with his family a "bad childhood" could have come up as spoiled, specially considering Shitson had it bad for real.

I do agree that we could have had him being adopted by a Romulan family who treated him well. Kinda like Juda Benhur, to keep with the Roman theme. That could be the start of his resentfulness against humans. Romulans showed mercy and compassion while humans never bothered to try to find him. If they wanted a more dramatic story, make the Romulan father the one who had to betray him instead of the cute Romulan chic. Imagine having this Romulan adopting him and saving him from being a slave because Shitson showed compassion despite the horrors he went through, showing his human side, but he still became the monster he was after all once he was safe and could have become anything else.
 
JamesFargo said:
Shitson should have just been Picard's son. A test-tube baby, cooked up during "The Neutral Zone".
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No, he should have just been Sela.

If Nemesis wasn't going to be a trippy Q movie, then Tomalak or Sela (and Sela works better thematically) should have been the final villain.
 
Flexo said:
No, he should have just been Sela.

If Nemesis wasn't going to be a trippy Q movie, then Tomalak or Sela (and Sela works better thematically) should have been the final villain.
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I completely forgot about Sela and you're right. Sela fits more the story and she has reasons for hating the Federation and humans in general.
 
Flexo said:
Plus it would have been a nice bookend for the cast that was there at the start to also be together at the end.
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Yes. All of them and no one else:
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Tasty Tatty said:
Shitson showed compassion despite the horrors he went through, showing his human side, but he still became the monster he was after all once he was safe and could have become anything else.
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Too late to introduce a bad childhood for Picard. We already know what it was and making the disagreements he had with his family a "bad childhood" could have come up as spoiled
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Picard never sought fame or glory; those always seemed to be thrust upon him. Robert enjoyed bullying him as payback for his popularity. Robert made a good point that Jean-Luc could use a lesson in humility. He has often been dictatorial in his idealism.

Well, that is exactly what made "Best of Both Worlds" and "Chain of Command" so effective. Contrast with the movies: Picard behaves so out-of-character, he seems to be having an identity crisis.
 
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I know CinemaSins is mostly tongue-in-cheek about their critiques, but I stopped taking them seriously when they referred to Kirk and Carol Marcus' discussion about David in the Genesis cave as "pointless baby mama drama".
 
I kind of wish they took a character from the series for Kirk's baby momma in II instead of coming up with a wholly new one. Just a gripe I've always had since I was old enough to think about it like that.
 
Watching Blake's 7 ( again ) after Trek continues to flush itself down the toilet. Very refreshing , especially since the Feds are the bad guys in this.
 
Preferred Penne said:
I know CinemaSins is mostly tongue-in-cheek about their critiques, but I stopped taking them seriously when they referred to Kirk and Carol Marcus' discussion about David in the Genesis cave as "pointless baby mama drama".
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They dismiss it a little too readily, but I will admit I've always felt like it could have been handled better. But I can't really figure out where I would place it in the movie since it has such a fast pace. I like Kirk's monologue about him feeling a old and worn out, but David only gets one scene with Kirk and Kirk's grief at Spock's death completely overshadows it. Its still a good scene, but its not really very father-and-son like despite what David says.

In the director's cut there's a scene of the cast using an access ladder to get to the bridge from the transporter room (presumably to bypass a damaged part of the ship) and Kirk just says "That man back there, he's my son." to which Spock just goes "Fascinating." in the voiceover. That's literally the extent of other characters acknowledging it.
 
White Devil said:
I kind of wish they took a character from the series for Kirk's baby momma in II instead of coming up with a wholly new one. Just a gripe I've always had since I was old enough to think about it like that.
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Yeah, with so much else in that movie being a callback to the series I always thought there was an episode I never saw with her in it.

Then again, given that Nicholas Meyer apparently mixed up Sulu and Chekov, maybe he mixed up Carol Marcus and Yeoman Rand.
 
White Devil said:
I kind of wish they took a character from the series for Kirk's baby momma in II instead of coming up with a wholly new one. Just a gripe I've always had since I was old enough to think about it like that.
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Apparently in the first draft script it was Janet Wallace from "The Deadly Years", but for some reason it got changed to an original character. Not sure why they made the change, as Meyer didn't sign on to direct until later, so I don't think it was his decision.

For that matter, Lt. McGivers from "Space Seed" was also in the first draft, but got written out because her actress was too ill to reprise the role. I think that one made a lot more sense, since I can believe that someone who was already a megalomaniac like Khan might be driven completely nucking futs by nearly two decades on Ceti Alpha V, whereas that mousy lieutenant turning into a cackling villainess who encourages Khan to murder her former crewmates as violently as possible would have been stretching it a bit.
 
HarryHowler said:
Apparently in the first draft script it was Janet Wallace from "The Deadly Years", but for some reason it got changed to an original character. Not sure why they made the change, as Meyer didn't sign on to direct until later, so I don't think it was his decision.

For that matter, Lt. McGivers from "Space Seed" was also in the first draft, but got written out because her actress was too ill to reprise the role. I think that one made a lot more sense, since I can believe that someone who was already a megalomaniac like Khan might be driven completely nucking futs by nearly two decades on Ceti Alpha V, whereas that mousy lieutenant turning into a cackling villainess who encourages Khan to murder her former crewmates as violently as possible would have been stretching it a bit.
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Plus her death being that extra fuel to Khan's rage fire really works.

And by that I mean, his relentless hunt at the end starts being crazy if it's just about being abandoned. But add on a dead wife? Still crazy, but more understandable.
 
Flexo said:
Plus her death being that extra fuel to Khan's rage fire really works.

And by that I mean, his relentless hunt at the end starts being crazy if it's just about being abandoned. But add on a dead wife? Still crazy, but more understandable.
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Speaking of which, if anybody isn't aware there is a novel trilogy about khan and the eugenics wars that starts with khan as a kid, moves on to his part in the eugenics wars in book 2 and shows what his life was like on ceti alpha 5, what happened to his wife and why he is the way he is by the wrath of khan

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To Reign in Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh

To Reign in Hell is a Pocket TOS novel – the third and final novel in The Eugenics Wars series – written by Greg Cox. Published by Pocket Books, it was first released in hardback in January 2005. From the book jacket At last – the untold chapter in the history of Star Trek's most notorious...
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JamesFargo said:
At least Mike Ehrmantraut endures. And he has (some) hair.
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The funny thing about that statement is his character actually dies (permanently) in STO, minutes after being cured of his immortality
 
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I saw a commercial for that new Star Trek cartoon on tv and it hit me that Star Trek isn't a special cult phenomenon anymore.

It's just more fodder for the content machine.

Like, who the fuck is that even supposed to be appealing to? Stop greenlighting shit just because you can!
 
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