Proof that Catholicism is true

[Queen Elizabeth II]

Now you shown that the Popes contradicted each other on Fetuses. I am now having a spiritual crisis as this affects the doctrine of papal infallibility. Do you know if there are Catholic explanations about the Pope's contradictions?

I'll have a look and see if there's something like that available free online, it is expensive getting hard copies of things like Infallible?

The basic thrust of the counter-argument from Catholics is that "It wasn't really taught to the whole Church" or "The Pope wasn't speaking ex-cathedra". Now the problem here is, as highlighted, nobody can actually ascertain when a Pope (if he does have supernatural Charisma) is speaking Infalliably, they can only ascertain afterwards from contradiction where he wasn't.

This does open some fairly interesting possibilities, as while John Paul II did say "We declare and define" in regard to female clergy, a later pontiff can quite easily decide otherwise. It will be harder to backtrack in the modern era where thanks to the internet it's much easier to check archives of times the Chuch has u-turned (before it could just lie because 99% of the time it had all the evidence in its possession) but I personally suspect that's why he was advised to say "The Church does not have the authority". Doesn't that strike you as an odd thing for a Pope to say? The direct voice of God on Earth to whom was given the keys to bind on earth as it will be in heaven saying he doesn't have the authority when his glorious predecessors like Innocent III have proclaimed themselves Lord of the Temporal Realm (i.e: The Universe)? I think given another century or so people will decide John Paul II wasn't speaking ex-cathedra as they've since decided previous condemnation of Natural Family Planning (i.e: The rhythm method for normies, just with more vaginal mucus sniffing) in Castii Connubi wasn't.

While I'm usually loathed to quote other religious studies, the Watchtower association comissioned a study of the beliefs of European Catholics back in 1989 in Awake (they wanted to work out the best way to convert them) and discovered....

This doctrine has divided people. In 1982, in the city of Rome, the home of the Vatican, 57 percent of Catholics considered papal infallibility one of the most questionable of dogmas. In Portugal, only 54.6 percent of Catholics believe in it, and in Spain, only 37 percent.

Groups like WomenPriests, Catholics for Choice, the University of Tubingen (where Fr.Kung lectured) have been openly poo-pooing infalliability for years (in cases like the "Old Catholic Church" they've been doing it since Vatican I) and still consider themselves Catholic with no internal turmoil or spiritual crises. People who describe themselves as "Catholics" without infalliability mostly function as a more centralised Eastern Orthodox.

Serious reply.

Visit Ann Barnhardt at www.barnhardt.biz and on the header is a link to a +2 hour video explaining that Heresiarch Jorge the Humble is not the real pople (and B16 is... while he's still alive, that is).

Don't get him started on this. Sedevacantism is a hell of a drug.

I still get letters to my old official email every two or three days from this one fruitcake who believes the last Pope was Pius XII who's still alive in cryosleep awaiting the day he rises to have a fucking battle with the giant whore and dragon in revelation in some Shadow of the Collosus tier shit. Mel Gibson is considered a moderate if that's any clue to what some of them are like.

 

[The Cunting Death]

why are you still here

 

[MW 590]

I'll have a look and see if there's something like that available free online, it is expensive getting hard copies of things like Infallible?

The basic thrust of the counter-argument from Catholics is that "It wasn't really taught to the whole Church" or "The Pope wasn't speaking ex-cathedra". Now the problem here is, as highlighted, nobody can actually ascertain when a Pope (if he does have supernatural Charisma) is speaking Infalliably, they can only ascertain afterwards from contradiction where he wasn't.

This does open some fairly interesting possibilities, as while John Paul II did say "We declare and define" in regard to female clergy, a later pontiff can quite easily decide otherwise. It will be harder to backtrack in the modern era where thanks to the internet it's much easier to check archives of times the Chuch has u-turned (before it could just lie because 99% of the time it had all the evidence in its possession) but I personally suspect that's why he was advised to say "The Church does not have the authority". Doesn't that strike you as an odd thing for a Pope to say? The direct voice of God on Earth to whom was given the keys to bind on earth as it will be in heaven saying he doesn't have the authority when his glorious predecessors like Innocent III have proclaimed themselves Lord of the Temporal Realm (i.e: The Universe)? I think given another century or so people will decide John Paul II wasn't speaking ex-cathedra as they've since decided previous condemnation of Natural Family Planning (i.e: The rhythm method for normies, just with more vaginal mucus sniffing) in Castii Connubi wasn't.

While I'm usually loathed to quote other religious studies, the Watchtower association comissioned a study of the beliefs of European Catholics back in 1989 in Awake (they wanted to work out the best way to convert them) and discovered....



Groups like WomenPriests, Catholics for Choice, the University of Tubingen (where Fr.Kung lectured) have been openly poo-pooing infalliability for years (in cases like the "Old Catholic Church" they've been doing it since Vatican I) and still consider themselves Catholic with no internal turmoil or spiritual crises. People who describe themselves as "Catholics" without infalliability mostly function as a more centralised Eastern Orthodox.



Don't get him started on this. Sedevacantism is a hell of a drug.

I still get letters to my old official email every two or three days from this one fruitcake who believes the last Pope was Pius XII who's still alive in cryosleep awaiting the day he rises to have a fucking battle with the giant whore and dragon in revelation in some Shadow of the Collosus tier shit. Mel Gibson is considered a moderate if that's any clue to what some of them are like.

The First Vatican Council declared a sentence of excommunication of anyone who questions the doctrine of Papal infallibility. It could be that most of the people who were polled in Europe don't really know about their religion's doctrine probably because most of them were baptized in the Catholic Church but don't take their religion seriously.

I am having a spiritual crisis, because I did take my Catholic faith seriously, more seriously than my peers at church. I go to mass every Sunday while many people my age only go to mass at Christmas and Easter. Of course I will keep my spiritual crisis a secret from my family so that they won't worry about me going to hell. Oh well, at least Catholicism is true in the parallel universe that I write and make animations about.

 

[PorcupineTree]

I am having a spiritual crisis, because I did take my Catholic faith seriously, more seriously than my peers at church. I go to mass every Sunday while many people my age only go to mass at Christmas and Easter. Of course I will keep my spiritual crisis a secret from my family so that they won't worry about me going to hell. Oh well, at least Catholicism is true in the parallel universe that I write and make animations about.

Well, now I feel bad about making fun of you.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

The First Vatican Council declared a sentence of excommunication of anyone who questions the doctrine of Papal infallibility. It could be that most of the people who were polled in Europe don't really know about their religion's doctrine probably because most of them were baptized in the Catholic Church but don't take their religion seriously.

I am having a spiritual crisis, because I did take my Catholic faith seriously, more seriously than my peers at church. I go to mass every Sunday while many people my age only go to mass at Christmas and Easter. Of course I will keep my spiritual crisis a secret from my family so that they won't worry about me going to hell. Oh well, at least Catholicism is true in the parallel universe that I write and make animations about.

The true value of religion, on the individual level, is whether or not it improves your spirit and character. I would suggest you legitimately do some soul-searching: study various religions and their principles, with your mind open to their ideas. Follow the one that speaks the most to you, not the first one to terrify you with threats of hellfire.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

The First Vatican Council declared a sentence of excommunication of anyone who questions the doctrine of Papal infallibility. It could be that most of the people who were polled in Europe don't really know about their religion's doctrine probably because most of them were baptized in the Catholic Church but don't take their religion seriously.

The same way the SSPX handwaves Vatican II as "not a real council", so too do many others handwave the Vatican I as "not a real council". There's a much stronger case for the Vatican I actually being invalid than II. The council itself, one of the smallest ever with few of the world's bishops in attendance, was never concluded and ended by war. The council was plagued by some of the worst weather Italy had ever seen (in one especially dramatic moment when Infallibility was being spoken about in St Peters Basilica, a gust of wind smashed though the very largest windows and many in attendance took this as a sign of divine displeasure). On the omens and portents side, Vatican I has very little in support of it.

A thing I know might sound odd, but isn't so strange in Europe is that religion historically post-Westphalia becomes more of a cultural than a political entity bit by bi.t. American Catholicism is far more aggressive and intolerant than European and South American incarnations. Even the Italians, who are known for cowing to the Catholic Church more than anyone else aren't quite as intense as you guys. Many religions claim to be universal but in truth all of them vary somewhat depending on where they're found. Drinking alcohol will get you beheaded in Saudi Arabia, but in Turkey short of being an Imam nobody would really care.

I am having a spiritual crisis, because I did take my Catholic faith seriously, more seriously than my peers at church. I go to mass every Sunday while many people my age only go to mass at Christmas and Easter. Of course I will keep my spiritual crisis a secret from my family so that they won't worry about me going to hell. Oh well, at least Catholicism is true in the parallel universe that I write and make animations about.

Talking to your mother might be a good idea. If she's a Catholic teacher like you say, you won't be the first child to come to her with doubts about their faith. There are many Catholics who take a "pick and mix" approach to religion knowingly or unknowingly and live otherwise fulfilled lives of faith. I personally couldn't, but that's your call.

I will tell you this; the sorts of things you delve into studying, things social institutions designed to have an air of mystery, magic and mystique to inspire awe and reverence in individuals and societies? The deeper you go, the less sense they will make. For some people, this confirms that their faith is beyond human comprehension, for others Nietzche's words come to mind. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Lots of people say truth is a good thing, but as anyone who has ever been asked how another person looks in new clothes knows; very few actually like getting told it.

 

[MW 590]

The same way the SSPX handwaves Vatican II as "not a real council", so too do many others handwave the Vatican I as "not a real council". There's a much stronger case for the Vatican I actually being invalid than II. The council itself, one of the smallest ever with few of the world's bishops in attendance, was never concluded and ended by war. The council was plagued by some of the worst weather Italy had ever seen (in one especially dramatic moment when Infallibility was being spoken about in St Peters Basilica, a gust of wind smashed though the very largest windows and many in attendance took this as a sign of divine displeasure). On the omens and portents side, Vatican I has very little in support of it.

A thing I know might sound odd, but isn't so strange in Europe is that religion historically post-Westphalia becomes more of a cultural than a political entity bit by bi.t. American Catholicism is far more aggressive and intolerant than European and South American incarnations. Even the Italians, who are known for cowing to the Catholic Church more than anyone else aren't quite as intense as you guys. Many religions claim to be universal but in truth all of them vary somewhat depending on where they're found. Drinking alcohol will get you beheaded in Saudi Arabia, but in Turkey short of being an Imam nobody would really care.



Talking to your mother might be a good idea. If she's a Catholic teacher like you say, you won't be the first child to come to her with doubts about their faith. There are many Catholics who take a "pick and mix" approach to religion knowingly or unknowingly and live otherwise fulfilled lives of faith. I personally couldn't, but that's your call.

I will tell you this; the sorts of things you delve into studying, things social institutions designed to have an air of mystery, magic and mystique to inspire awe and reverence in individuals and societies? The deeper you go, the less sense they will make. For some people, this confirms that their faith is beyond human comprehension, for others Nietzche's words come to mind. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Lots of people say truth is a good thing, but as anyone who has ever been asked how another person looks in new clothes knows; very few actually like getting told it.

I never said that my mom is a school teacher, not a Catholic teacher. She teaches at a state school(this might confuse you but in the US, state schools are called public schools). I am not sure how she or my dad would react to my doubts but they would definitely have fears about me going to Hell so I think that it is best for them that I don’t tell them so that they don’t have to live with that kind of fear.

I am now agnostic but I wish that Catholicism was true because it is part of the heritage of England and Western Civilization.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

I am now agnostic but I wish that Catholicism was true because it is part of England’s and Western Europe’s heritage.

Oh no.... Kiwi Farms broke this poor Catholic boy. He came here to prove he was right and now he's having a crisis of faith...

Seriously dude, if you're still a kid and living with your parents, you have to pick your battles. Generally religion just isn't a worthwhile battle. I don't know much about you and your dad obviously, but don't feel like you need to get buy in from your parents for your own beliefs.

I mean, yeah, it'd be cool if magic were real and space dad could do miracles so people who do the right thing get rewarded for it, but you gotta live in the world that you live in, not the one you want. Wishful thinking is powerful, but it doesn't generally result in successful predictions.

It's not as if you need to have all the answers, in fact, you can't.

 

[PorcupineTree]

I never said that my mom is a school teacher, not a Catholic teacher. She teaches at a state school(this might confuse you but in the US, state schools are called public schools). I am not sure how she or my dad would react to my doubts but they would definitely have fears about me going to Hell so I think that it is best for them that I don’t tell them so that they don’t have to live with that kind of fear.

I am now agnostic but I wish that Catholicism was true because it is part of the heritage of England and Western Civilization.

If you don’t mind sharing, roughly how old are you? I had my crisis of faith as a teenager and it really sucked.

 

[MW 590]

If you don’t mind sharing, roughly how old are you? I had my crisis of faith as a teenager and it really sucked.

I am 19 and I will be turning 20 on March 3.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

I never said that my mom is a school teacher, not a Catholic teacher. She teaches at a state school(this might confuse you but in the US, state schools are called public schools). I am not sure how she or my dad would react to my doubts but they would definitely have fears about me going to Hell so I think that it is best for them that I don’t tell them so that they don’t have to live with that kind of fear.

I am now agnostic but I wish that Catholicism was true because it is part of the heritage of England and Western Civilization.

My apologies. Then as a Catholic and as a teacher, she will be long used to children bringing her their doubts and concerns. She's your mother, she'd likely want to help as would other family members who are perhaps less....Intense as your father sound.

Oh no.... Kiwi Farms broke this poor Catholic boy. He came here to prove he was right and now he's having a crisis of faith...

I always have mixed feelings about this. Obviously, I don't have anything nice to say about supernatural belief, but having been there....A crisis of faith isn't fun.

@Jacob Harrison, I don't know if it would be any use to you, but several years ago I did find a video series on youtube from a very strict Christian who lost his faith, his reasons/evidence for it and how he handled it. He came from a fundamentalist background, but I did find it helpful if you want a link to it.

 

[PorcupineTree]

I am 19 and I will be turning 20 on March 3.

You’re younger than I assumed at the beginning of this thread.

What you’re going through isn’t uncommon and I think you would find solace in reading from or communicating with former Christians who can empathize, rather than anti church groups who are more inclined to tease you. (Or a cyber bullying forum.)

For a lot of religious people, their beliefs provide a foundation on which to make sense of the world. It’s scary to have that taken away if it’s the only worldview that you know. However, it does get better if you continue to be honest with yourself.

 

[MW 590]

My apologies. Then as a Catholic and as a teacher, she will be long used to children bringing her their doubts and concerns. She's your mother, she'd likely want to help as would other family members who are perhaps less....Intense as your father sound.

But this is bigger than children's doubts and concerns, because it is about the Catholic faith. How does my post make my father sound more intense? I am saying that revealing my new agnosticism to my family will make them very worried because they love me. Since they believe that hell is real, the idea of me going there will give them the worst kind of dread. Back when you were Catholic, did yo u ever have worries about someone you care about going to hell? Since I love my parents, I want them to be happy and not have dread about my afterlife.

And yes I would like a link to the youtube channel.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

But this is bigger than children's doubts and concerns, because it is about the Catholic faith. How does my post make my father sound more intense? I am saying that revealing my new agnosticism to my family will make them very worried because they love me. Since they believe that hell is real, the idea of me going there will give them the worst kind of dread. Back when you were Catholic, did yo u ever have worries about someone you care about going to hell? Since I love my parents, I want them to be happy and not have dread about my afterlife.

And yes I would like a link to the youtube channel.

That is part of the unfortunate negative side to religion. There's a kind of blackmail built in, infinite punishment. It's a concept the human mind obviously can't properly comprehend, but it works really well to get people to do what you want.

I know people who were raised very religious and they describe something very similar, where they were terrified their friends would go to hell because they weren't true believers. It's a fucked up thing to do to a kid, but it's done out of the same fear. All I can really say is... they are OK now, and so are the people in their lives who are still very religious.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

But this is bigger than children's doubts and concerns, because it is about the Catholic faith. How does my post make my father sound more intense? I am saying that revealing my new agnosticism to my family will make them very worried because they love me. Since they believe that hell is real, the idea of me going there will give them the worst kind of dread. Back when you were Catholic, did yo u ever have worries about someone you care about going to hell? Since I love my parents, I want them to be happy and not have dread about my afterlife.

It wasn't a post in this thread that made your father sound intense, but one on the FSTDT forum about when you were caught doing something. To describe a father who would force his son to confess masturbation to a girl he was thinking about and pay her financial compensation as conservative would be a gross understatement on my part and unless he's mellowed out with age, not the first person I'd go to about that.

The Catholicism I knew growing up, and the school I subscribed to while training were a bit more liberal than the one you did. Even in the SSPX, a greater emphasis was placed on the mercy of God. Rather than "You're all going to hell for using contraception", I would have argued for invincible ignorance or mitigating factors. American Catholicism is far more legalistic and letter-of-the-law than the form I knew.

I think I didn't fear hell for non-Catholics or sinners I knew when I was younger because I felt that God was good, and I trusted that he would do what is right and understand their mistakes. When I was older and studied deeper into what people historically had felt God was and had did, that was how I started to doubt. I came to believe first before beginning to leave the faith that God was lawful, but he wasn't good by any empirical measure of consequence or effect; and things unravelled from there, including for a time fearing for others who offended this angry 13 year old sims player in the sky.

Not everyone questions or fears the same things so it's hard to really say. I've known others start to doubt when they realised prayer was ultimatley futile (if God has a plan you can't change in motion, your input is pointless) or perhaps balked with a moral problem (my gay sister is going to hell but serial killers who believed in God are playing a harp with Jesus?)

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

@Jacob Harrison Took me a little bit to remember the fellows name

I think I began at 1.1 and carried on until video 22. His graphic model of supporting points of belief (and despite the fall of one the others can still hold up a faith) in the God Concept and throughout his deconversion experience videos isn't anything I've seen in a Religious Studies or Theology text but I have to say it's bloody marvellous. I've used it myself when giving talks before.

 

[MW 590]

@Jacob Harrison Took me a little bit to remember the fellows name

https://youtube.com/watch?v=id=mSy1-Q_BEtQ;list=PLF42ACBF6E5F29BA9
I think I began at 1.1 and carried on until video 22. His graphic model of supporting points of belief (and despite the fall of one the others can still hold up a faith) in the God Concept and throughout his deconversion experience videos isn't anything I've seen in a Religious Studies or Theology text but I have to say it's bloody marvellous. I've used it myself when giving talks before.

Thank you. I will now begin watching. Was his deconversion experience similar to ours in that he found evidence against his beliefs? Parts of his religious experience may be different because he was raised in a very different sect of Christianity.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

Oh no.... Kiwi Farms broke this poor Catholic boy. He came here to prove he was right and now he's having a crisis of faith...

Seriously dude, if you're still a kid and living with your parents, you have to pick your battles. Generally religion just isn't a worthwhile battle. I don't know much about you and your dad obviously, but don't feel like you need to get buy in from your parents for your own beliefs.

I mean, yeah, it'd be cool if magic were real and space dad could do miracles so people who do the right thing get rewarded for it, but you gotta live in the world that you live in, not the one you want. Wishful thinking is powerful, but it doesn't generally result in successful predictions.

It's not as if you need to have all the answers, in fact, you can't.

Shitting on him for having a crisis of faith is a good way to make sure he will be distinctly uninterested in taking "your" side in the great religion war.

That is part of the unfortunate negative side to religion. There's a kind of blackmail built in, infinite punishment. It's a concept the human mind obviously can't properly comprehend, but it works really well to get people to do what you want.

I know people who were raised very religious and they describe something very similar, where they were terrified their friends would go to hell because they weren't true believers. It's a fucked up thing to do to a kid, but it's done out of the same fear. All I can really say is... they are OK now, and so are the people in their lives who are still very religious.

I'm going to point out that only the Abrahamic faiths really have an idea of Hell as a place of infinite punishment. Reincarnation is the prevailing belief in the East, with Hell existing as a place that cleanses the very worst souls so they can return to the cycle of reincarnation.
EDIT: In addition, most pagan faiths believed that, with the possible exception of a select handful who earned a place with the gods due to their heroic actions in life, everyone goes to a neutral after-place, regardless of deeds or faith in life (a few cultures, like the Greeks, believed that exceptionally evil conduct in life would lead to eternal punishment by the gods, but these were universally based on acts, not thoughts.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

Thank you. I will now begin watching. Was his deconversion experience similar to ours in that he found evidence against his beliefs? Parts of his religious experience may be different because he was raised in a very different sect of Christianity.

His is very similar in this regard; the same way you've suddenly hit a wall with Papal Infalliability he hit one with contradictions within the bible which holds a similar infalliable role for him (and later the authorship of it). He doesn't talk much about Sacred Tradition and precedent, since these are meaningless for the most part in Pentecostalism but if you grew up in a very religious community like I did you might feel a lot of affinity with his discussions on prayer, theological arguments, socialising with other believers and how alien the world felt as he grew in doubt.

I think living amongst and talking to believers is what I still find the hardest. Most of my family is very devout, and I simply can't get on the same wavelength as them when subjects come up that have the potential to be influenced by religious faith. Where they see orange I see blue. I remember what it was like seeing orange but I can't fathom for the life of me now how I did knowing what I do now. It feels a bit like living in the twilight zone.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Shitting on him for having a crisis of faith is a good way to make sure he will be distinctly uninterested in taking "your" side in the great religion war.

Luckily that's not what happened, as you obviously saw in the rest of my post you quoted. Get off my dick.