Military Equipment Sperging Thread - The Tiger II is a better tank than the M1 Abrams edition

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Artillery units should have organic ISR drone support.
The first time that this was shown to be a remarkable tool was in the 2020 Azeri-Armenian war where the Azerbaijani forces used extensive amount of drones to spot for artillery and the result was that the army that was still stuck in the early 2000's ended up getting absolutely smacked, undoing the gains the Armenians had made in the early 90's. This also is one of the major reasons why nobody has been able to much of a dent in the Russo-Ukrainian front-lines because any major concentration of armored forces inevitably becomes spotted and then given maximum priority for all indirect available. Infantry at least can dig foxholes to avoid the worst shrapnel, vehicles need actual bunkers.
 
And a swarm of drones armed with a dozen 155mm equivalents or small diameter bombs cant do that why?
A fully primed M795(the American version of a modern 155mm artillery round) weighs about 100 pounds when filled. So you would need to have a drone capable of providing the lift for lets say 1200 pounds of ordinance and then you have fuel and the weight of the aircraft to take into consideration. So it's a big drone, it can't fly high because of air defense. So your solution is a large, low flying drone that can be popped by small arms fire. That requires an airfield now to take off, which requires an order of magnitude more in support and space, making an attractive target for actual precision guided munitions.

Look at the proposed drone itself. It would need to be prop driven, since it will maybe be at 5000 feet for an operational ceiling, and then probably need to drop to under 1k once it's several miles out from the target so it doesn't get tagged by something like a CIWS. So the second someone hears a lawnmower which is what a small prop driven aircraft sounds like, stand to is called and the sky is lit up with flak. The engine itself would have to be quite powerful, larger than what you see in a typical Cessna to carry that level of ordinance with anything approaching speed. It would also take say 30 minutes from launch to hit the target. Due to it probably not going much faster than 150 knots. Versus what, like a minute flight time for a conventionally fired artillery round.

So what you have is an overly complex, less agile platform for the delivery of ordinance. With a longer time to target, that is easily identified and easily defended against. Now, that isn't to say drone launched ordinance doesn't have a place, but that place is at 40,000 feet and launching ALCMs at factories and immobile hard-points.
 
Well yeah but that doesnt mean its not a drone aka cheap(theoritically dont need a highly trained highly fit pilot but gg globohomoindustrialcomplex) easy to maintain and easy to fly.
Even civilian drones of that weight class (the Griff 30 comes to mind immediately) are large, expensive, and only have a stated maximum flight time of thirty minutes. The Griff 30 can only carry 30 kilos, which is very short of a 155mm shell, and anything carrying a payload requires a trained pilot or at least an experienced one.

@OutInTheRain Loiter time and flight time would be a huge limiting factor for these theoretical heavy bombardment drones as well. The heaviest lift drone that I know of is the Griff 300, and that thing's about the size of a minifridge but it can carry about 300 or 400 pounds of payload. The biggest problem is that even with its special high density batteries it only has (according to its manufacturer so your experience may differ) a maximum range of 15km at a cruising speed of 50km/h and a maximum speed of 60km/h, and a maximum flight time of 45 minutes. Quiet literally worse than many fighter and recon planes of WWI.
 
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A fully primed M795(the American version of a modern 155mm artillery round) weighs about 100 pounds when filled. So you would need to have a drone capable of providing the lift for lets say 1200 pounds of ordinance and then you have fuel and the weight of the aircraft to take into consideration. So it's a big drone, it can't fly high because of air defense. So your solution is a large, low flying drone that can be popped by small arms fire. That requires an airfield now to take off, which requires an order of magnitude more in support and space, making an attractive target for actual precision guided munitions.
When I say drone Im not specifically talking about pizza boxed sized ones with rpgs jurry rigged to them. Im talking about Predator/Reaper sized drones.

In a non retarded world a small craft capable of carrying 1000-2000 pound payload would be trivial to mass produced.
So what you have is an overly complex, less agile platform for the delivery of ordinance. With a longer time to target, that is easily identified and easily defended against. Now, that isn't to say drone launched ordinance doesn't have a place, but that place is at 40,000 feet and launching ALCMs at factories and immobile hard-points.
Have you ever seen an tube artillery unit in action? They are not agile. Counter battery fire is a massive threat to tube arty, especially tubes that arent self propelled. And they have a long logistics trail behind to support those 7-10 dudes per gun and the two trucks minimum to haul that gun and ammo.

In GWOT where you could park and forget a gun, that wasnt a problem. Its gonna be a problem against a near peer in a total war scenario.
 
Oh hey here come my contrarian opinions.

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When I say drone Im not specifically talking about pizza boxed sized ones with rpgs jurry rigged to them. Im talking about Predator/Reaper sized drones.

In a non retarded world a small craft capable of carrying 1000-2000 pound payload would be trivial to mass produced.
Sure, let's get a bunch of slow, unmaneuverable, expensive, Cessna sized aircraft instead of a jet fighter. That'll go great. You do realize that even a Reaper drone costs like thirty million dollars right? And that thing's on the low end.
 
Sure, let's get a bunch of slow, unmaneuverable, expensive, Cessna sized aircraft instead of a jet fighter. That'll go great. You do realize that even a Reaper drone costs like thirty million dollars right? And that thing's on the low end.
Only when you have a bunch of globohomo retards in charge does something simple as a small piston driven aircraft cost more than a few million dollars.

And manned fighter aircraft are worthless in the modern battlespace.
 
Only when you have a bunch of globohomo retards in charge does something simple as a small piston driven aircraft cost more than a few million dollars.
Even a brand new Cessna 182 is 600K and that thing has none of the hardened electronics or communications on board that an aircraft operating in a military profile requires. Take into account all of the IFF, communications, radio control, hardening, and everything else that goes into a military drone, combine that with the fact that it's majority Made In America and yeah, drones are still expensive even with "globohomo retards in charge".
And manned fighter aircraft are worthless in the modern battlespace.
In what possible way?
 
When I say drone Im not specifically talking about pizza boxed sized ones with rpgs jurry rigged to them. Im talking about Predator/Reaper sized drones.

In a non retarded world a small craft capable of carrying 1000-2000 pound payload would be trivial to mass produced.
This isn't just an engine with a computer on it that you program to go to a spot and drop bombs, these are piloted. You need a pilot, Tactical Command and Control of the airspace, so a RADAR installation, network capability. On top of a ground crew, of 7-10 to receive each drone as they land. On top of the supply chain for parts, and fuel. A Reaper sucks up 4000 pounds of fuel. Not to mention the need for precision guided ordinance that they require. Something equivalent using dumb bombs, would just be a big fat target. No one drops a dumb bomb at 25000 feet with the expectation it's going to hit something pertinent unless they drop an apocalyptic amount. So now you just have created a worse bomber.

I also don't think you realize just how big a MQ-9A Reaper is. Its wingspan is 65 feet, and it's 36 feet long. Now it can carry 3800 pounds of ordinance. However that is across 7 hardpoints. Due to only having 7 rounds you can't use it to breech a defensive line. It will drop rounds, and then head back for rearm and repair. So you won't be seeing that drone for several hours. The hours to transit back behind lines need to be taken into account as well. Even if you had 100 drones, that would give you 700 rounds to fire. A modern artillery piece can fire 2 rounds a minute on sustained fire. 10 guns can fire that in 70 minutes, and they keep firing.

I won't get into the command and control nightmare and airspace management to keep 100s if not 1000s of drones from bashing into each other. All aircraft are magentically attracted to each other, and they want nothing more than to smack into one another, no matter how big the sky is.
Have you ever seen an tube artillery unit in action? They are not agile. Counter battery fire is a massive threat to tube arty, especially tubes that arent self propelled. And they have a long logistics trail behind to support those 7-10 dudes per gun and the two trucks minimum to haul that gun and ammo.

In GWOT where you could park and forget a gun, that wasnt a problem. Its gonna be a problem against a near peer in a total war scenario.
I have seen artillery batteries in action. I've called for fire too. If you are receiving artillery fire, as an artillery unit. Multiple fuck ups happened. Somehow unbeknownst to you, the enemy has found where your artillery is, which is of course possible with modern ISR. Then, they advanced to a position that is unknown to you, which is a failure of your own ISR and recce, within range to engage your artillery.

However, there is this magical thing that an Howitzer does, which is just leave. You start getting shelled, you pack up and run away. It is really easy to move an artillery battery it's trucks, brute strength and ignorance, the army's chief strengths. Its even quicker when you are propelled by the terror that comes from being shelled. At the same time, because artillery is sighted to provide overlapping fields of fire, and if they can hit you, you can hit them. The battery next to you, will probably now have sighted the unholy amount of smoke that artillery kicks up, and begin to return fire.

Ironically during the GWOT, artillery was less effective than drones. You weren't breaking a defensive line, you were dropping a bomb on some dudes in a truck. The Reaper was great for killing goat herders. It was great for when you are like "fuck this house in particular.
 
This isn't just an engine with a computer on it that you program to go to a spot and drop bombs, these are piloted. You need a pilot, Tactical Command and Control of the airspace, so a RADAR installation, network capability. On top of a ground crew, of 7-10 to receive each drone as they land. On top of the supply chain for parts, and fuel. A Reaper sucks up 4000 pounds of fuel.
Of course theres a logistical end to it. Just like there is with artillery. Takes quite a bit to keep a battalion of artillery in the field supplied. Each M777 has a 8-10 guys(Paladins have a few less guys but added complexity of a tracked vehicle) on it along with 2 7tons with a driver at a minimum. A lot of dudes to keep fed healthy and armed in wartime conditions.
I also don't think you realize just how big a MQ-9A Reaper is. Its wingspan is 65 feet, and it's 36 feet long. Now it can carry 3800 pounds of ordinance. However that is across 7 hardpoints. Due to only having 7 rounds you can't use it to breech a defensive line. It will drop rounds, and then head back for rearm and repair. So you won't be seeing that drone for several hours. The hours to transit back behind lines need to be taken into account as well. Even if you had 100 drones, that would give you 700 rounds to fire. A modern artillery piece can fire 2 rounds a minute on sustained fire. 10 guns can fire that in 70 minutes, and they keep firing.
Well the idea is you dont treat drones like the zippersuited son gods at the USAF does. They should be viewed as common place and expendable as a humvee or MRAP. You should have a hell of a lot more than 1 or 2 on hand for a target.

Really it needs to go back to how airpower was viewed during WW2. Building tens of thousands of drones churning out the equviilant number of crews. You lose a few drones? Who cares crews just slide right into controlling different ones. But the zippersuited sun gods at the USAF think thats heresy. God forbid a "pilot" is not of special unicorn snowflake.
I have seen artillery batteries in action. I've called for fire too. If you are receiving artillery fire, as an artillery unit. Multiple fuck ups happened. Somehow unbeknownst to you, the enemy has found where your artillery is, which is of course possible with modern ISR. Then, they advanced to a position that is unknown to you, which is a failure of your own ISR and recce, within range to engage your artillery.
This isnt WW2 where you have your arty well behind the line of battle so your arty and the enemies arty is out of range. This is an era of MLRSs with 100km+ range, drones sweeping well behind enemy lines like terminators, loitering munitions just waiting for a threat to hit etc. I dont think youre gonna be setting up for massive sustained fire missions against Chinese positions like we did in Iraq.

Even a brand new Cessna 182 is 600K and that thing has none of the hardened electronics or communications on board that an aircraft operating in a military profile requires. Take into account all of the IFF, communications, radio control, hardening, and everything else that goes into a military drone, combine that with the fact that it's majority Made In America and yeah, drones are still expensive even with "globohomo retards in charge".
Yeah this is a fundamental problem with ALL military hardware. Everything is horribly overpriced for numerous reasons. If the US got involved in a war similar to WW1 or 2, it would break the country near instantly.
In what possible way?
Modern air defense. Its why Russia has been relegated to using their aircraft as launch platforms for glide bombs dozens of miles behind their lines.
 
You can simply arm drones with RPGs without propellant charge. Tanks are easy to pen from top. For the rest you can use specialized munition, thermobaric for buildings and grenades for infantry.
There's no need to carry a 155mm shell of which more than half the weight is just the casing. 40mm thermobaric grenade will flatten an iraqi house if fired inside. Drones are more versatile than planes and can use much less munition but a lot more manpower to empty a city.
Planes, arty and tanks rely on a volume of fire to defeat an objective.
 
Planes, arty and tanks rely on a volume of fire to defeat an objective.
How do drones not? When you're hammering a infantry formation with a plane, you want as many bombs as possible. A F-16 can carry 12 500 pound mk 82 bombs. A MQ-9 Reaper, this:
1280px-MQ-9_Reaper_UAV_(cropped) (1).jpg
Can only carry two 500 pound bombs, laser guided usually. That is only useful for point targets, not wiping out formations and the like.

If you want to go deeper, the US Army's Grey Eagle can only carry 4 Hellfire missiles, which are in the 100 pound weight class:
MQ-1C_Warrior_(2005-08-11).jpg
It cannot carry bombs. It is only useful against point targets.

Now take this M109A7 howitzer
M109A7_Self-propelled_Howitzer.jpg
It can keep shelling for hours with HE, including precision munitions like EXCALIBUR, anti armor like BONUS, and regular HE. All while sitting 30 km away from the action. It shoots off some rounds, then scoots away, rinse, repeat
 
How do drones not?
Because more than half their weight is engine and fuel. They are made to loiter and drop whatever they can carry. Any extra weight drags their range significantly and after they drop they payload they have to go for the long flight back to base.
It can keep shelling for hours with HE, including precision munitions like EXCALIBUR, anti armor like BONUS, and regular HE. All while sitting 30 km away from the action. It shoots off some rounds, then scoots away, rinse, repeat
It is made to cover the distance drone would take in seconds instead of minutes. You can also resupply arty with trucks.
HE is name of the game, observe russia dropping 10.000 152 shells a day.
B52 can carry 32t of payload with 14.000km of range. If that isn't volume I don't know what would impress you.
 
Because more than half their weight is engine and fuel. They are made to loiter and drop whatever they can carry. Any extra weight drags their range significantly and after they drop they payload they have to go for the long flight back to base.

It is made to cover the distance drone would take in seconds instead of minutes. You can also resupply arty with trucks.
HE is name of the game, observe russia dropping 10.000 152 shells a day.
B52 can carry 32t of payload with 14.000km of range. If that isn't volume I don't know what would impress you.
I think we're in agreement, we're just talking past eachother lol.
 
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