Marvel Cinematic Universe

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In pretty much all Spiderman media the spider that bit Peter was a mutant created by Oscorp right?

So the thing in Madam Web where the magical super power giving spiders apparently exist in the wild in a jungle somewhere is that a retcon or something thats actually canon in the comics?

I'm mostly a manga reader so I don't really know the deep lore.
 
This wouldn't be so much of a problem for me, if the movies/shows after Endgame didn't try to address the effects of the Reverse Snap since thinking about it makes it worse.
It always felt like that all was a way to lead up to wandavision "House of M" when a "no more mutants" route or the actualyl content of House of M could not be done. They were probably more thinking about how to lead into the next miniseries then if it made any sense. But that is what happens when they decide to try to do an arc that they can't actually show.
 
In pretty much all Spiderman media the spider that bit Peter was a mutant created by Oscorp right?

So the thing in Madam Web where the magical super power giving spiders apparently exist in the wild in a jungle somewhere is that a retcon or something thats actually canon in the comics?

I'm mostly a manga reader so I don't really know the deep lore.
Oscorp created the spider in the Ultimate line of comics (tl;dr early 2000s separate line, a sort of rebooted universe, not tied to canon aka 616; Peter was a teen in it again), but in the main universe it happened at a place called General Techtronics Laboratories. It's become a bit hip and cool to tie that spider with Oscorp, even though it just leads to Norman Osborn being behind pretty much everything that happened to Peter and that's kinda lame.

Regarding the jungle spiders, that's just kind of a version of how she got her powers in the comics (government experiment in Peru). I also think there's the very simplified aspect originally introduced in J. Michael Straczynski's run on Amazing Spider-Man. It's a bit long to get into, but the tl;dr of that is he presented a mystical element to the story with animal totems, a spider-totem being among them. The Spider-Verse comics (you know the animated movies) took that idea and went fucking insane with it and introduced even more mystical bullshit to the Spider-lore that would take too much time to list out. Also a thing to note is JMS intended there to be doubt whether or not all the mystic stuff was true or not and Peter remains highly skeptical about it (Ezekiel, who is a villain in Madam Web, is a sort-of bad guy in JMS's story in that he's good initially, betrays Peter near the end for his own gain, but realizes he's grown to respect Peter and ends up repenting).

Basically, there are many varied and stupid ways people have gotten Spider-powers in the comics. Silk was a chick that was bitten by the same spider as Peter (no, really).
 
This has been something on my mind, but god damn Endgame gets worse for me when the Reverse Snap basically does more harm than the first snap did. Since even with Hulk's "oh if people were snapped on the road, they'd just be snapped to safety" spiel, there are still a shit load of people that would die from being brought back. The Reverse Snap does more damage to the world in the long term by making overpopulation worse. All because Iron Man wanted to keep his child (which like yeah a good father would want to do that, but something like reversing half the world dying should've probably been seen in a more utilitarian lens).

This wouldn't be so much of a problem for me, if the movies/shows after Endgame didn't try to address the effects of the Reverse Snap since thinking about it makes it worse.

Cause imagine if 4 billion dead people were just brought back perfectly healthy in modern society.
You'd pretty much have a societal collapse due to half the population disappearing causing a massive competency crisis. Followed with a massive famine and riots when the half that disappeared pops back up. Of course you can just fart some reason why it hasn't happened with space travel and hyper technology the Avengers squirrel away.

Though I'm with Iron Man on it. Killing the new generation to save the fuck up previous generation is never the way to go. But modern culture wants everything to work both ways and fuck the consequences.
 
You'd pretty much have a societal collapse due to half the population disappearing causing a massive competency crisis. Followed with a massive famine and riots when the half that disappeared pops back up. Of course you can just fart some reason why it hasn't happened with space travel and hyper technology the Avengers squirrel away.

Though I'm with Iron Man on it. Killing the new generation to save the fuck up previous generation is never the way to go. But modern culture wants everything to work both ways and fuck the consequences.
Its only about his daughter rather than a broad reason.

The issue with this is that if the Avengers used their hyper technology as you mentioned, it could easily be brushed off. But the MCU also wants to do social commentary with the "Snap" with shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier so it can't be done both ways.
 
The Snap and its consequences have been a disaster for the MCU are just another entry in the long list of Reasons Disney Should Have Wrapped the MCU after Endgame. If thought about for more than the few seconds that you're given to ruminate on it while watching the movie, you quickly realize that there were not only major issues with deleting half of the universe's population, but also compounded ones upon bringing them all back suddenly.

There would be a lot of specialized knowledge that would evaporate in an instance, so say goodbye to anything with a bus factor of 1 (and a lot of 2's and 3's). That's to say nothing of all the people who keep things running on a daily basis. We saw what happened during the coof when a major event disrupted pretty much everything in our globally-connected society; imagine that but even more severe as those people aren't just at home, they're gone, with no explanation. The survivors have to pick up the pieces, suffering from civilization-wide trauma as probably everyone got to see at least one person get dusted. Undoubtedly there would be major crises and riots as a result of this, problems that I'm sure ol' Thanos didn't think about when he came up with this stupid plan. Even with superheroes and advanced tech, that's a lot of problems to cover.

And then, boom, everyone's returned to life five years later. Now what? Just when many are coming to terms with loss, all of a sudden, all of their friends and family are back again. I'm sure that would be a happy thing for most, but how many would refuse to believe it, thinking that they've gone crazy, and end up hurting themselves or others? What about those that started new lives with fellow survivors, got married, had kids? What happens when their old families return? Are they supposed to give up their new family for their old, or abandon their old for their new? How about inheritance? How do you handle property rights for people that used to be dead? What is it like to know that everyone who got snapped is five years younger than they should be? What does that do to kids whose snapped friends have returned, but they just don't have that commonality anymore due to the age difference? How do the returned pick up the pieces? It's not like most of these people could just slot back in to their old jobs either, considering a lot of businesses probably went under in the interim.

All of this is fertile ground to explore in a work that actually has the capacity to do so, but blockbuster capeshit ain't it. If they'd wrapped things up with Endgame, they wouldn't have had to bother; nerds would speculate as nerds do, but it wouldn't create issues down the line with future movies if there just weren't any. But Iger needed the gravy train to keep rolling, so more movies it is.

And their solution to all the problems the Snap caused? Take the easy way out and ignore it, hoping that the audience is too distracted by the flashing lights to question it. Sure, it's used as a plot point in the Falcon show, but aside from a token mention here and there, it's basically like the single most traumatic event in human history never happened. Hell, they do that for other events that someone should point out at some point, like that half-formed god baby statue emerging from the ocean in Eternals that's still there to my understanding. It ends up making the setting as a whole lack in verisimilitude, when major happenings seem to leave no mark on the world and everything returns to status quo without anyone noticing. Don't question it, just consoom product and get excited for next product.

(To be clear, I'm not asking for someone to trauma dump every movie or discuss the rebuilding efforts in great detail. I just think it would have been nice if the writers would have considered at least some of the potential effects instead of simply not even bothering...or if they're going to, then handling it better than fucking Taika's Infinity Gauntlet ice cream shop.)

You could easily be mistaken given how many words I just wrote about the subject, but I'm just glad I don't bother with these movies anymore outside of hearing how meh-to-bad they are. Consider this simply a rumination on a decade of past time investment. The only other thing I'll say about the Snap is that they really should've stuck to the original motivations of Thanos wanting to bang Death. It wouldn't have fixed the problems listed above, but at least it would have made more sense than some vague "kill half of all life as a permanent solution to overpopulation" bullshit.
 
You could easily be mistaken given how many words I just wrote about the subject, but I'm just glad I don't bother with these movies anymore outside of hearing how meh-to-bad they are. Consider this simply a rumination on a decade of past time investment. The only other thing I'll say about the Snap is that they really should've stuck to the original motivations of Thanos wanting to bang Death. It wouldn't have fixed the problems listed above, but at least it would have made more sense than some vague "kill half of all life as a permanent solution to overpopulation" bullshit.
For me with this Snap shit, they should've just done what other time travel stories do when a bad future happens. Which is just go to the past and reverse it from happening, since while it takes away probable consequences, you could still kill off characters to have consequences/stakes. It's

It doesn't help that despite the title of Endgame a lot of MCU movies before it have set up a lot of shit so it would've still continued and they all knew it, especially with Feige trying to force a Guardians and Thor team up. The people at Marvel didn't think about the consequences of leaving a near-apocalypse happen aside from using it for gags which only makes the audience think more about it.

Despite my care for the subject and bringing it up, I don't watch the MCU much and skip most of the shit they put out nowadays, but its something that makes me think with how many other stories that have these grand society changing moments either get just as retarded or are more intricate in comparison.
 
This wouldn't be so much of a problem for me, if the movies/shows after Endgame didn't try to address the effects of the Reverse Snap since thinking about it makes it worse.

Cause imagine if 4 billion dead people were just brought back perfectly healthy in modern society.

Honestly this would have been a good place to integrate the Eternals and Celestial fuckery. Hell, you could have even made a movie our of it, now that the Eternals' two mandates (protecting humanity and not interfering with their development) are now at odds. Hell, you could even kick it off with Ajak having a vision of Arishem fucking dying to the snap just to establish how completely off the rails this has sent things. Hell, you could even tease the "space robots" reveal- with ten of them, the odds of none of them getting snapped are basically nil. This type of social collapse would also explain why they haven't been outed as if Endgame: the more proactive members like Druig would quickly figure out that given the absolute chaos of the post-snap world, they can do pretty much anything and not really be seen by anyone except immediate witnesses, because all the major communication networks have broken down, and thr ones that haven't are absolutely swamped.
 
What I personally didn't like about Endgame was that the snap left behind exactly the right people to save the day.

20 or 30 years ago, it might have come across as novel, but nowadays, writing is so predictable, you can almost put the story together based on which characters are put into which position.

That and there is a looooooong stretch of Endgame was "Unresolved Issues: The Movie".

Personally, I think phase 4 could have done a bit better to acknowledge that the snap DID have some effects, though I think Seinfeld: After the Snap could have been amazing if they just went for it.
 
Literally only came back to the thread to post this, its awesome

The only other thing I'll say about the Snap is that they really should've stuck to the original motivations of Thanos wanting to bang Death. It wouldn't have fixed the problems listed above, but at least it would have made more sense than some vague "kill half of all life as a permanent solution to overpopulation" bullshit.
if Endgame came out a decade before it did. i'd agree with you much like why people say you couldn't have had the barbie movie of 2023 in 2015, an incel Thanos wouldn't have been accepted by audiences the way "overpopulation destroyed everything" thanos was. People straight up were memeing #thanosdidnothingwrong and still do because the culture of the last half century has portrayed him as such.
, and I'd always say, Guardians was obscure to normies, but they were extremely popular with nerds.
If we want to be more honest, James Gunn made such a good fucking movie that it didn't matter that the IP was unknown prior to being released. Stuff like the soundtrack which are synonymous with the group was created entirely by him, if he wasn't given the go ahead to use them but given the same budget he'd still have given us the iconic team audiences know and love, You don't even have to take my word for it, even the writers guild all but admitted Gunn changed so much from the original source material heavy script that he got a writers credit and the original writer had to fight tooth and nail to keep hers.

In some alternate universe James Gunn's Troma Squad 3 would have been released last year instead by Paramount and been the only superhero movie that grossed a billion dollars instead, those films are so fucking original compared to how cookie cutter the rest of the MCU is they barely feel like they're part of the same universe as it is.
It's no wonder that audiences weren't clamoring for more Captain Marvel after Endgame. She wasn't offering anything particularly new or interesting.
I don't know if i said it ITT, but i always thought it would have been neat if Captain Marvel had total imposter syndrome, she could be the little miss badass you see in the avengers films, but when she's not playing hero she's a necrotic mess. The amount of women, especially in managerial roles that fake the brave face but turn into the most feminine, scared, non-confrontational, no self confidence messes once out of earshot of their underlings is huge. Every "strict" teacher or principal you had would leave work to go hug stuffed animals and cry. You saw a similar thing with medical professionals during covid, and you see it in the social media of many of our people in government and law today.

It would also give Brie something to do with her acting skills, she was one of the queens of /tv/ because she was so good at playing the weirdo in stuff like community. Say what you will about Iron Man or GOTG, a big reason those did so well compared to say Hulk/Thor/CapAm movies at the time was because they weren't by the book. the performances and bathos didn't make them feel like the marvel movies of the 2000s. You could easily see Thor 1+2 or Captain America being connected to Elektra or The Punisher from the 2000s. Iron man or GOTG notsomuch.
Also had a fun looking and novel trailer.
i'll admit to that trailer turning me. it seemed doomed to fail and then it really gave you everything you needed: a unique trailer, a bit of the characters schtick, fun

everyone talks about how movies revel the whole plot nowadays, but what did we learn about GOTG before it got released? nothing people went because they wanted to see a bunch of A-holes on screen for 2 hours.
Carol... learns that she's being held down by others and she's just impossibly powerful and cool she just doesn't know it.
if i had a shot at that film, it would have been to get her to believe in herself, using the example of everyone else not questioning the idea that she's actually impossibly powerful and cool so why does she not believe it? As for the music, it was horribly done, to add into the humor it would have been better if she wasn't a huge fan of top 40 but some weirdo into adult contemporary like Anne Murray. I know Deadpool already did that joke but i like it.
she had to have at least one scene where she was singing, so that if she ever wanted to take on a role that needed singing, she had something for her sizzle reel. She's not a particularly good singer, but whatever, apparently.
exactly, there's something i find really cute and endearing about a woman that does something badly but she loves anyways. White women dancing when they can't turns me into the central park 5 with how much i enjoy seeing it. Having Carol be a woman that sings but is clearly barely good at it would be delightful. You could even make the karoke bit work, while everyone else is singing normal popular songs for their day she busts out some Linda Ronstadt while her black friend tries to be supportive. Something that i feel had a lot more play in the late 90s along with "girl power" is that the girls/women were allowed to be weirdos in a way you don't see from our modern mary-sue feminism. Look at She-Hulk vs Ally Mcbeal. One of those is a lot more fun and way less obnoxious despite them almost the exact same show. even SNL in the late 90s showed women being just as goofy as the men. the Sandler-led group of bad boys that dominated snl in the first half of the 90s vanished and were replaced by "the girlie show" of the late 90s where the women (and will ferrel) seemed to be the biggest stars of the cast.

Thats why it seems so jarring for Captain Marvel to have so little going on, they really needed to change the entire character because she just sucks so much. Making her some barrier breaking badass jet pilot just ruins her character, as someone that actually does know a 90s woman jet pilot badass, thats not what makes people like her, but her oddities. her relationship struggles or struggles at doing new hobbies like pottery and welding or her trying to save money on a cell phone plan that leads to her signing up for some weird company no one has heard of that works really well.

You need the struggle before people accept your greatness, and the generic badass backstory didn't help. they really fucked over Brie with the character too, there's a reason direct to video films cast people who sometimes didn't even know the language and its because of how easy those roles are to play. You had a woman that could play a cheerleader, a nutcase, a nerd, a narcissist and a damsel and they gave her less than nothing. they could have easily cast Neil Breen and gotten the exact same performance.
 
Black Panther is where the verisimilitude started to break down for me. Not so much because of the titular character, but the very concept of Wakanda itself. Maybe I will go into more detail later, but the TL;DR is that isolationism typically leads to technological stagnation (as was the case for the Tokugawa Shogunate in Japan) and there is no way I would believe that Wakanda would speedrun through the bronze/iron ages and industrial revolution without trade or contact with the outside world. It was very clear that the film's purpose was for Ryan Coogler and Ta-Nehisi Coates to intellectually masturbate and to entertain the sub-80 IQ crowd.
 
Black Panther is where the verisimilitude started to break down for me. Not so much because of the titular character, but the very concept of Wakanda itself. Maybe I will go into more detail later, but the TL;DR is that isolationism typically leads to technological stagnation (as was the case for the Tokugawa Shogunate in Japan) and there is no way I would believe that Wakanda would speedrun through the bronze/iron ages and industrial revolution without trade or contact with the outside world. It was very clear that the film's purpose was for Ryan Coogler and Ta-Nehisi Coates to intellectually masturbate and to entertain the sub-80 IQ crowd.
Niggers larping as Africans will always be strange to me. Like a Chinese person larping as Japanese.
 
Niggers larping as Africans will always be strange to me. Like a Chinese person larping as Japanese.
It's just them coping that they're nothing at all like those evil white rednecks, even though they have more in common with them than with any African.
 
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Black Panther is where the verisimilitude started to break down for me. Not so much because of the titular character, but the very concept of Wakanda itself. Maybe I will go into more detail later, but the TL;DR is that isolationism typically leads to technological stagnation (as was the case for the Tokugawa Shogunate in Japan) and there is no way I would believe that Wakanda would speedrun through the bronze/iron ages and industrial revolution without trade or contact with the outside world. It was very clear that the film's purpose was for Ryan Coogler and Ta-Nehisi Coates to intellectually masturbate and to entertain the sub-80 IQ crowd.
That's why they were unable to figure out a cure for T'Challa, IMO. When their cure for everything is to take a pill of Vibranium (meaning it can be dissolved in stomach acid), they didn't bother to learn surgery or microbiology. So really, Shuri's research was hampered by having to read up on microbiology first before being able to diagnose his illness. In-universe, the reason why they still bother with Bronze Age social customs is because Vibranium made it too easy to build a civilization, so they skipped all the actual science and the philosophy needed to develop the Scientific Method. No need to learn aerodynamics, vibranium floats, no need to learn microbiology, vibranium is a panacea, no need to mix concrete, vibranium is the perfect building material, no need to learn about electricity, vibranium is a superconductor. That last one is very unsettling as they have skyscrapers and thus, uninsulated lightning rods.
 
That's why they were unable to figure out a cure for T'Challa, IMO. When their cure for everything is to take a pill of Vibranium (meaning it can be dissolved in stomach acid), they didn't bother to learn surgery or microbiology. So really, Shuri's research was hampered by having to read up on microbiology first before being able to diagnose his illness. In-universe, the reason why they still bother with Bronze Age social customs is because Vibranium made it too easy to build a civilization, so they skipped all the actual science and the philosophy needed to develop the Scientific Method. No need to learn aerodynamics, vibranium floats, no need to learn microbiology, vibranium is a panacea, no need to mix concrete, vibranium is the perfect building material, no need to learn about electricity, vibranium is a superconductor. That last one is very unsettling as they have skyscrapers and thus, uninsulated lightning rods.
This really showcase how much Reddit brain the writing is. The level of civilization is directly based on technology like it's a fucking video game, rather than be a factor of society, trade and freedom like in reality. It's also a huge contradiction because if Vibranium was some insanely important material, people wouldn't use for every thing they need.
 
This really showcase how much Reddit brain the writing is. The level of civilization is directly based on technology like it's a fucking video game, rather than be a factor of society, trade and freedom like in reality. It's also a huge contradiction because if Vibranium was some insanely important material, people wouldn't use for every thing they need.
Because it's deesrispectfool tu de ansesstahs tu mine soch ah valuable cahmoddahtee!
 
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In pretty much all Spiderman media the spider that bit Peter was a mutant created by Oscorp right?

So the thing in Madam Web where the magical super power giving spiders apparently exist in the wild in a jungle somewhere is that a retcon or something thats actually canon in the comics?

I'm mostly a manga reader so I don't really know the deep lore.
Spider-Man Noir got his powers from something called a Spider Totem... or some shit. It was different than the lab-mutated spider thing, 'cos it's based in around 1933.
 
That's why they were unable to figure out a cure for T'Challa, IMO. When their cure for everything is to take a pill of Vibranium (meaning it can be dissolved in stomach acid), they didn't bother to learn surgery or microbiology. So really, Shuri's research was hampered by having to read up on microbiology first before being able to diagnose his illness. In-universe, the reason why they still bother with Bronze Age social customs is because Vibranium made it too easy to build a civilization, so they skipped all the actual science and the philosophy needed to develop the Scientific Method. No need to learn aerodynamics, vibranium floats, no need to learn microbiology, vibranium is a panacea, no need to mix concrete, vibranium is the perfect building material, no need to learn about electricity, vibranium is a superconductor. That last one is very unsettling as they have skyscrapers and thus, uninsulated lightning rods.
You're absolutely right, but don't think for a moment that any of it went through any thinking by the writers. It was all accidental. They just wanted high tech shit with the same aesthetics of Shithole Africa: futuristic cities with dirt streets, skyscrapers with straw roofs, a super advanced civilization with no political parties but warring tribes, and a government system decided through trial by combat.

Absolutely incompatible and oxymoronic, but how else can you visually communicate Afrofuturism if not through savage retard caveman traits?
 
You're absolutely right, but don't think for a moment that any of it went through any thinking by the writers. It was all accidental. They just wanted high tech shit with the same aesthetics of Shithole Africa: futuristic cities with dirt streets, skyscrapers with straw roofs, a super advanced civilization with no political parties but warring tribes, and a government system decided through trial by combat.

Absolutely incompatible and oxymoronic, but how else can you visually communicate Afrofuturism if not through savage retard caveman traits?
Also, as a side effect of MCU style, the Wakandans are actually shit at war. Their entire military doctrine is built around the Gilgamesh principle; one powerful king leads the charge at all times. Which makes sense against another small tribe, but on a modern battlefield, it's an entire army that has difficulty performing basic tactical maneuvers because of the lack of authority from their FOB. Also, since their King is the only one that has the flower power, he simply can't be everywhere at once. Combined with their even shittier diplomatic skills, the reason Wakanda hid itself from the world is because they will get overrun by the rest of the world. It doesn't really matter if the attrition rate is 100-1 in favor of the Wakandans, their population is too low and their militaries are managed too inefficiently to fight off... well... even literal wetback Atlanteans.
 
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