Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Prehistoric Jazz]

They Live was a comic first?

Twas a book, then it was adapted into an eclipse comic short called Nada

https://readallcomics.com/alien-encounters-06/

if you scroll about halfway down you'll see it

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

"i already did it minutes ago" line

The line itself doesn't make sense when you think about it. Dude basically went "I subverted your expectations " in-universe despite the genre he was subverting not really being a thing.

The whole superhero angle in Watchmen is pointless and it might as well been retro/futuristic/fantasy noir. Doctor Manhattan just a living nuke with an obvious insight of irl Superman would be way less human and scarier. Add the Vietnam sperging and it's yet another case of a Bri*ish man subverting American icons to feel superior of his dead cultural identity and a group of idiots clapping on how engaging that subversion is.

 

[dick brain]

That doesn't count.

Why?

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Again, literally throwaway lines nobody gives a shit about that you could remove from the comic that has no effect on the plot and nobody would notice if it was gone.

"If Rian had just removed the word 'hyperspace' from 'hyperspace kamikaze' it wouldn't have broken every space battle that has ever been fought in the series." Well, he didn't, and it did.

And i see youve abandoned the line anout psychic powers effectively not existing. This idea breaks down one of two ways:

1. Psychic powers have an effect so small they effectively don't exist, which means that Veidt effectively conjures an entire field of science out of thin air, Doctor Doom style, or;

2. Psychic powers do have a real, noticeable effect, in which case every other investigator into the topic just completely belly flopped for no reason, including the ones who had the Demiurge in their rolodex.

Pick whichever you like, theyre both back-breakingly bad answers for a setting that tries to hang its hat on " muh gritty realizm guize." However you slice it, this is the universe of the story conspiring in the villain's favor so rich, sexy Moral Nihilism Man can get his soliloquy about how mass murder and the Big Lie are Good, Ackshully.

How do you not have the nessesary self awareness to realize that this literally applies to you and superhero comics?

We have a lot in common, it's why we can't stand each other.

They Live, Road to Perdition and The Crow were pretty good adaptations. History Of Violence as well.

Add 30 Days of Night and Death of Stalin to that list.

Dr. Manhattan controls matter and energy. He can't feel cold.

EDIT: If I was unclear, I have no problem with the nakedness because as you say, it's the point. My issue is every American I talked to about the movie couldn't get past talking about it like it was this huge dea

It actually is a huge deal. The idea of any kind of explicit/hypersexual material on the silver screen has basically been radioactive since Showgirls bombed so hard it killed the prospects of basically everything it touched. I mean, that movie tanked so hard it even killed the X rating, that's how big of a blast radius we're talking. You can chalk this up to prudery or whatever but male full frontal is basically unheard-of outside of porn.

As to him not wearing clothes, it's a metaphor for his yet-incomplete separation from his former humanity. Despite giving up clothes as unnecessary (showing his separation from human mores, most people will wear clothes whether they need to or not in a reflexive observance of the nudity taboo) he's still trying to get it on with Laurie when the story starts. He still has some human facets, or is trying to simulate them, anyway.

 

[Nick Obre]

The line itself doesn't make sense when you think about it. Dude basically went "I subverted your expectations " in-universe despite the genre he was subverting not really being a thing.

The line before it is "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?"

In case you don't know what that is, it refers to episodic, ongoing, weekly stories they used to show in Cinemas back in the day (in this case the mention is specific to Republic Pictures, but there were others). They were very "pulp", "B-film" style, with cliffhangers that get resolved easily in the next episode, monologuing villains, etc.

So that accounts for the "subversion" in-universe.

In the movie they change it to "I'm not a comic book villain", which sucks because the original line was fitting for the setting, but I guess comic books are also present in-universe.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

The line before it is "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?"

In case you don't know what that is, it refers to episodic, ongoing, weekly stories they used to show in Cinemas back in the day (in this case the mention is specific to Republic Pictures, but there were others). They were very "pulp", "B-film" style, with cliffhangers that get resolved easily in the next episode, monologuing villains, etc.

So that accounts for the "subversion" in-universe.

In the movie they change it to "I'm not a comic book villain", which sucks because the original line was fitting for the setting, but I guess comic books are also present in-universe.

It's still a case of referencing a popular trope that's endemic to comics. It's one of the issues with deconstructive works, they pick and choose when to suddenly be realistic, usually for maximum venom against the original genre.

Owlman and Rorschach can't just throw a stun grenade at Veidt before he says shit because Alan Moore decided that in real life heroes are fucking morons, while the "peace justifies the means 1000IQ Ubermensch" are allowed to be intelligent.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

"If Rian had just removed the word 'hyperspace' from 'hyperspace kamikaze' it wouldn't have broken every space battle that has ever been fought in the series." Well, he didn't, and it did.

You'd still be required to explain how and why 1 spaceship was able to take out an entire fleet then.

1. Psychic powers have an effect so small they effectively don't exist, which means that Veidt effectively conjures an entire field of science out of thin air, Doctor Doom style, or;

2. Psychic powers do have a real, noticeable effect, in which case every other investigator into the topic just completely belly flopped for no reason, including the ones who had the Demiurge in their rolodex.

Pick whichever you like, theyre both back-breakingly bad answers for a setting that tries to hang its hat on " muh gritty realizm guize." However you slice it, this is the universe of the story conspiring in the villain's favor so rich, sexy Moral Nihilism Man can get his soliloquy about how mass murder and the Big Lie are Good, Ackshully.

Atoms exist.

That doesn't mean you can do anything with them until you invent the nuke.

Psychic potential exists.

That doesn't mean you can do anything with it until you invent the psychic nuke.

I am fine with the story having 1 character that uses his unlimited money to be the first to invents the psychic nuke. There's a first for everything.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

It's still a case of referencing a popular trope that's endemic to comics. It's one of the issues with deconstructive works, they pick and choose when to suddenly be realistic, usually for maximum venom against the original genre.

Nah, Veidt catching the bullet is when the comic gives up pretending that the ending is anything other than bullshit. It's a classic payoff too- too-clever-by-half villain underestimates human goodness (Dr. Manhattan's eureka moment with Laurie on Mars) and winds up getting blindsided by something his 6 million IQ didn't forsee (Comedian's daughter, carrying one of Veidt's victims' guns? Yeah that's classic stuff right there.) In fact, Austin Powers would go on to spell out how much sense this makes with the "just shoot him" exchange- and frankly, for a "subversive" "deconstructive" comic, ultimately cutting the knot on all the "costumes" and "powers" nonsense by just popping a cap in his ass would have been a realistic, grounded, fitting payoff.

But no, happy endings are for kids even (especially) when they are completely logical and flow naturally from the setup.

Owlman and Rorschach can't just throw a stun grenade at Veidt before he says shit because Alan Moore decided that in real life heroes are fucking morons, while the "peace justifies the means 1000IQ Ubermensch" are allowed to be intelligent.

Rorschach and Nite Owl are both established as extremely capable solo fighters as well as an experienced tag team, of course they get completely trashed by hypercompetent rich playboy Aidran Veidt. This isn't like those silly baby comic where hypercompetent rich playboy Bruce Wayne trashes fighters he has no business beating.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Nah, Veidt catching the bullet is when the comic gives up pretending that the ending is anything other than bullshit. It's a classic payoff too- too-clever-by-half villain underestimates human goodness (Dr. Manhattan's eureka moment with Laurie on Mars) and winds up getting blindsided by something his 6 million IQ didn't forsee (Comedian's daughter, carrying one of Veidt's victims' guns? Yeah that's classic stuff right there.) In fact, Austin Powers would go on to spell out how much sense this makes with the "just shoot him" exchange- and frankly, for a "subversive" "deconstructive" comic, ultimately cutting the knot on all the "costumes" and "powers" nonsense by just popping a cap in his ass would have been a realistic, grounded, fitting payoff.

But no, happy endings are for kids even (especially) when they are completely logical and flow naturally from the setup.

Rorschach and Nite Owl are both established as extremely capable solo fighters as well as an experienced tag team, of course they get completely trashed by hypercompetent rich playboy Aidran Veidt. This isn't like those silly baby comic where hypercompetent rich playboy Bruce Wayne trashes fighters he has no business beating.

The biggest tell of the issues with Watchmen is how Alan Moore didn't understand how readers emphasized more with Rorschach than anyone else. Moore tried to make Rorschach a satire of Objectivist heroism by portraying him as a "loser". But people like Rorschach because the whole point of heroism is aspiring for Justice even if the consequences are bad for himself. And what's the alternative? Either you are a literal cuck like Nite Owl who just watches everything burn, a hedonist like Specter or a New World Order aspiring psychopath like Veidt.

And I'd put my money on Alan Moore thinking Veidt is the most righteous of the cast for "doing the tough call" of killing others for his plans.

 

[Nick Obre]

Owlman and Rorschach can't just throw a stun grenade at Veidt before he says shit because Alan Moore decided that in real life heroes are fucking morons, while the "peace justifies the means 1000IQ Ubermensch" are allowed to be intelligent.

Well that's the fucking point of the "did it 35 minutes ago", isn't it? They could have come in hot and shot Veidt in the head before he even turned around, but the deed was already done. He didn't leave it up to chance that they would try to talk him out of it or that he'd be able to defeat them. He just completed the plan and they got there too late, didn't matter what they did at that point.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

You'd still be required to explain how and why 1 spaceship was able to take out an entire fleet then.

To use your favorite phrase, "it doesn't actually matter." The crucial facts of the situation- Kylo's usurpation of the First Order, the outcome of the Battle of Krayt- are completely unchanged regardless of whether the Supremacy and it's escorts survive or not. The hyperspace ram wasn't bad because it took out the Supremacy (the Executor got decapitated by an A-Wing), it's because it introduced a "new" element to space battles that should have always been there. If hyperspace ramming is a thing, then hyperspace ramming should have always been a thing. Likewise, if psionics are a thing, psionics should always have been a thing.

Atoms exist.

That doesn't mean you can do anything with them until you invent the nuke.

Psychic potential exists.

That doesn't mean you can do anything with it until you invent the psychic nuke.

I am fine with the story having 1 character that uses his unlimited money to be the first to invents the psychic nuke. There's a first for everything.

A is a prerequisite for B, but B is implicit in A. Once the potential for the thing is discovered, it's just a matter of time before someone makes the relevant breakthrough. With splitting the atom, the topic of how to do it and the consequences of doing so were openly discussed in universities and so on; the foundational principles of the Bomb were very much laid out in public, demystifying it in the process. Even if Veidt got there first, he'd just be building the finished version of something loads of other people had been speculating about and building their own theories towards. At that point, it's too late to pass off the squid as an alien, because there would still be other theories around and other psionics researchers (remember, this should be a real field in this universe) who could Crack the case, especially once they got their hands on the body.

This isn't "America splits the atom first," this is "America splits the at first then hoodwinks the world into thinking Hiroshima was taken out with Harry Potter magic."

 

[Oilspill Battery]

To use your favorite phrase, "it doesn't actually matter." The crucial facts of the situation- Kylo's usurpation of the First Order, the outcome of the Battle of Krayt- are completely unchanged regardless of whether the Supremacy and it's escorts survive or not. The hyperspace ram wasn't bad because it took out the Supremacy (the Executor got decapitated by an A-Wing), it's because it introduced a "new" element to space battles that should have always been there. If hyperspace ramming is a thing, then hyperspace ramming should have always been a thing. Likewise, if psionics are a thing, psionics should always have been a thing.

I'm really happy you said that because it proves my point. Psionics HAVE always been a thing, its just that until veldt nobody knew how to take advantage of them.

Just like atoms have always been a thing and until the manhattan project nobody knew how to take advantage of them.

By contrast, EVERYONE knows how to use hyperspace.

So what's the narrative issue here?

This isn't "America splits the atom first," this is "America splits the at first then hoodwinks the world into thinking Hiroshima was taken out with Harry Potter magic."

What stops aliens from developing psionics? The squid just needed to be convincingly alien, its method is irrelevant, that's why I said the squid could have been filled with radioactive material, the method is just flavouring, the squid is the important part.

People think it was aliens who did it because of the giant squid, not because of the psychic shock.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Just like atoms have always been a thing and until the manhattan project nobody knew how to take advantage of them.

By contrast, EVERYONE knows how to use hyperspace.

So what's the narrative issue here?

You see where I've branched off from you before this, right? Until the Manhattan Project nobody knew how to take advantage of atoms, but everyone knew that they could be taken advantage of; the only actual sticking point was the mechanism. So a nuclear weapon couldn't be plausibly passed of as something else, since German/Soviet/whatever scientists would pretty quickly get to the truth because of their significant if not complete knowledge of the topic.

What stops aliens from developing psionics? The squid just needed to be convincingly alien, its method is irrelevant, that's why I said the squid could have been filled with radioactive material, the method is just flavouring, the squid is the important part.

Because the squid contains no actual alien biological material (aliens don't exist) and needs to retain some of the functionality of a human brain to maintain a human brain's capabilites. Veidt needs to be able to assemble a fraud so comprehensive that it can fool every geneticist, psionicist, and biologist on the planet even when they have the corpse on a slab in front of them. For someone who rubbishes Death Note as "DragonBall Z with Rube Goldberg plots instead of powering up," You're remarkably tolerant of a keikaku orders of magnitude more complex and expansive than anything Light ever tried.

Of course, in capeshit- which is what Watchmen is- using "intelligence" as a cheat code to let notionally non-super characters pull off brazenly impossible shit is a trope almost as venerable as randoms getting godlike powers through lab explosions.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Well that's the fucking point of the "did it 35 minutes ago", isn't it? They could have come in hot and shot Veidt in the head before he even turned around, but the deed was already done. He didn't leave it up to chance that they would try to talk him out of it or that he'd be able to defeat them. He just completed the plan and they got there too late, didn't matter what they did at that point.

The issue they allowed him to talk at all rather than incapacitate him before he either recites his manifesto or pre-empts the process even if it raises the chances of failure. Yeah it wouldn't have mattered in the end but they didn't know it.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

You see where I've branched off from you before this, right? Until the Manhattan Project nobody knew how to take advantage of atoms, but everyone knew that they could be taken advantage of; the only actual sticking point was the mechanism. So a nuclear weapon couldn't be plausibly passed of as something else, since German/Soviet/whatever scientists would pretty quickly get to the truth because of their significant if not complete knowledge of the topic.

I don't think that's an issue. He's not passing the psychic shock as something else, he's passing it off as a psychic shock caused by aliens.

Because the squid contains no actual alien biological material (aliens don't exist) and needs to retain some of the functionality of a human brain to maintain a human brain's capabilites. Veidt needs to be able to assemble a fraud so comprehensive that it can fool every geneticist, psionicist, and biologist on the planet even when they have the corpse on a slab in front of them.

I mean yeah, that's the idea, he's wealthy enough to employ enough people to make the fraud believable, its set up all across the book that famous artists and such are mysteriously dissapearing and nobody knows how or why.

For someone who rubbishes Death Note as "DragonBall Z with Rube Goldberg plots instead of powering up," You're remarkably tolerant of a keikaku orders of magnitude more complex and expansive than anything Light ever tried.

That wasn't me lol, that was some other guy and I don't even agree with him.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

I don't think that's an issue. He's not passing the psychic shock as something else, he's passing it off as a psychic shock caused by aliens.

I mean yeah, that's the idea, he's wealthy enough to employ enough people to make the fraud believable,

Thats the problem ultimately: that he needs to be so far ahead of everyone else that they cant decipher his weapon even when it contains nothing inherently extraterrestrial and theyre holding it their hands. IOW he needs to have created the field ex nihilo.

its set up all across the book that famous artists and such are mysteriously dissapearing and nobody knows how or why.

And of course none of the deaths/disappearances are properly investigated etc. etc. This just moves the problem around: if :Veidt's power and influence is so far-reaching there's no way his regime could be topples by a schizophrenic felon in possession of the relevant facts.

That wasn't me lol, that was some other guy and I don't even agree with him.

Oh, sorry, thought that was you.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Thats the problem ultimately: that he needs to be so far ahead of everyone else that they cant decipher his weapon even when it contains nothing inherently extraterrestrial and theyre holding it their hands. IOW he needs to have created the field ex nihilo.

I don't view that as an issue, I take it as an axiom of the story that Veldt is as smart as he says, and the story does a reasonably good job justifying his deeds with time, money and resources, compared to something else like Ironheart building a better iron man suit than the actual iron man suit in her basement using stolen car parts using intuition.

And of course none of the deaths/disappearances are properly investigated etc. etc. This just moves the problem around: if :Veidt's power and influence is so far-reaching there's no way his regime could be topples by a schizophrenic felon in possession of the relevant facts.

His regime isn't toppled though, Rors just sent his diary full of schizo ramblings to the daily mail. Whether or not it will actually have an effect is up to you to decide, but realistically it probably won't.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

I don't view that as an issue, I take it as an axiom of the story that Veldt is as smart as he says, and the story does a reasonably good job justifying his deeds with time, money and resources, compared to something else like Ironheart building a better iron man suit than the actual iron man suit in her basement using stolen car parts using intuition.

Better than Iron heart is a low bar- dust mite limbo low- but I agree that he clears it. That said, I do not think the story has nearly enough in it to justify his plan working out like he thinks it will. If they'd given him some actual alien biomass to play with maybe (that shit was part of 80s pop culture too, iirc) but in the story as presented it doesn't wash unless Veidt himself is some kind of super being. There's just an impossibly large number of things that have to go exactly right (one of the fundamental rules of conspiracies is that the larger they get, the harder they are to control, and the harder they are to keep concealed.)

His regime isn't toppled though, Rors just sent his diary full of schizo ramblings to the daily mail. Whether or not it will actually have an effect is up to you to decide, but realistically it probably won't.

Well, Dr. Manhattan thought Rorschach could make the difference, which is why he murdered him. So the regime can't be that stable if that was a necessary step.

 

[newuser131]

is the mcu board and the mcu itself so dead that it has been converted to the watchmen board?

 

[Oilspill Battery]

is the mcu board and the mcu itself so dead that it has been converted to the watchmen board?

There haven't been any new releases recently and after series of 50 flops in a row they've started winding down. The last noteworthy thing from marvel or the mcu was canning floyd and bringing RDJ back on but that was ages ago in internet time.