Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Oilspill Battery]

Except teleportation and giant squid are both known things in this universe, so that doesn't work. Jon teleports all the time (yet appears completely ignorant of/noninteractive with psychic abilities, another plot hole.) You're right in a sense, there's lots of good/decent versions Moore could have written, but "giant exploding psychic squid" is the one he actually did write.

How are giant squids or teleportation known in this universe?

The first time a giant squid appears is in the finalle and nobody can teleport appart from Jon.

In fact it is LITERALLY a plot point that Veldt gathered up the most talented artists from all over the planet specifically FOR creating something so alien and bizzare that it would be a complete unknown.

This is what drove the comedian insane, remember? The whole opening scene of watchmen and the catalyst for the events of he entire book?

(yet appears completely ignorant of/noninteractive with psychic abilities, another plot hole.)

In what way would you have him interact with psychic abilities considering nobody in the setting is capable of using them and before the squiad attack nobody had ever even displayed them?

You're genuinely doing mental acrobatics to hate on watchmen for the most retarded reasons imaginable.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

How are giant squids or teleportation known in this universe?

Giant squid are something that are known IRL, and teleportation is something Dr. Manhattan can do trivially, people have been trying to replicate it.

In what way would you have him interact with psychic abilities considering nobody in the setting is capable of using them and before the squiad attack nobody had ever even displayed them?

"Hello there, Laplace's Demon, I'm a government scientist who would like to know if telepathic abilities exist."
"Yes, with a small effect size. Look for mutations in neurons x, y, and z."

Besides, if telepasthic abilities are so tiny and rare and irrelevant that Jon can't pin them down, how the fuck can Veidt? "To me, the world's smartest man is no different than the world's smartest termite." The interstitials say that "psychics" were disappearing, which implies that there was some effect to their abilities (which is how Veidt identified his victims.) But all of this relies on psionics being a real thing, yet the world just happening to never notice or care so Veidt can pull the rabbit out of the hat.

You're genuinely doing mental acrobatics to hate on watchmen for the most retarded reasons imaginable.

"Fictional worlds need to be internally consistent" is not my idea of mental gymnastics.

But relax bro, I don't hate Watchmen or any of its silly contrivances; its a comic book, and this kind of nonsense happens all the time in comic books. A story can still be good while deploying silly genre tropes.

Which is funny after a fashion: you started this conversation by slagging off every comic book except Watchmen and claiming that it wasn't slave to idiotic genre conventions. And yet here you are, defending those same conventions when it's Watchmen doing them. This is why Watchmen doesn't transcend the genre tropes: because it is the genre tropes, only slightly better concealed under a layer of grime.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Giant squid are something that are known IRL, and teleportation is something Dr. Manhattan can do trivially, people have been trying to replicate it.

You are aware that its not an actual squid yes? It is an amalgamated chimera created by the top writers and artists of the 20th century expressly for the purpose of being the most otherwordly and alien thing humanity has ever seen.

And yes. Manhattan can teleport. Nobody else can. For the rest of humanity teleporation is still essentially alien. So... again what's the problem?

"Hello there, Laplace's Demon, I'm a government scientist who would like to know if telepathic abilities exist."
"Yes, with a small effect size. Look for mutations in neurons x, y, and z."


Besides, if telepasthic abilities are so tiny and rare and irrelevant that Jon can't pin them down, how the fuck can Veidt? "To me, the world's smartest man is no different than the world's smartest termite." The interstitials say that "psychics" were disappearing, which implies that there was some effect to their abilities (which is how Veidt identified his victims.) But all of this relies on psionics being a real thing, yet the world just happening to never notice or care so Veidt can pull the rabbit out of the hat.

You say "Jon can't pin them down." as if Jon at any point cared or tried to pin them down and failed. His entire arc is how he doesn't give a shit about humanity anymore.

As for the real world, again like overly pointed out, governments were doing experiments with psionics during the cold war, its just that they didn't succeed.

I don't see how "government is slow to develop extremely complicated technology in a previously non-extant field" is a plothole.

"Fictional worlds need to be internally consistent" is not my idea of mental gymnastics.

Which is funny after a fashion: you started this conversation by slagging off every comic book except Watchmen and claiming that it wasn't slave to idiotic genre conventions. And yet here you are, defending those same conventions when it's Watchmen doing them. This is why Watchmen doesn't transcend the genre tropes: because it is the genre tropes, only slightly better concealed under a layer of grime.

But it is internaly consistent. Your criticisms of its internal consistency are all braindead. You're grasping at straws and making mountains of molehills based on throwaway lines that have basically zero effect on the plot.

You've spent the past 3 pages bitching about a throwaway line that appears in like one page which could be removed and nobody would even notice and it wouldn't even affect the plot, and worse yet, that one line doesn't even break internal consistency to begin with.

If this is the worse you can come up with to condemn watchmen, fuck yeah its better than the sewage that is the rest of the comics industry.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

As for the real world, again like overly pointed out, governments were doing experiments with psionics during the cold war, its just that they didn't succeed.

Except those experiments would have yielded something useful if psionics were real. If Orgone was real, those fuckers in the early 20th century would have been on to something. Unless the same people who pulled off the Manhattan Project and the moon landing just kinda forgot how to do their thing.

Jon worked for the government for decades. If the Comedian is to believed, he didn't do much except what he was told. Yet when the government was investigating psychic phenomena it just slipped their mind that they had Laplace's Demon in their back pocket?

You're defending a version of the Manhattan Project where every previous party has failed to even establish that atoms exist, but kung fu twink Steve Jobs develops the field from "not even a working theory" to "Hiroshima " in less time than it takes to pay off a car loan.

If this is the worse you can come up with to condemn watchmen, fuck yeah its better than the sewage that is the rest of the comics industry.

"Trust me bro, he just caught bullets out of the air that one time bro, it's totally grounded for mega-geniuses to invent and implement entire fields of applied science bro, stop laughing bro, this isn't like any of those baby books you enjoy its got swearing and sex, bro"

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Except those experiments would Hage yielded something useful if psionics were real. If Orgone was real, those fuckers in the early 20th century would have been on to something. Unless the same people who pulled off the Manhattan Project and the moon landing just kinda forgot how to do their thing.

Your criticism of watchmen essentially boils down to "The government isn't as efficient in a fictional field of science as I envisioned it being at this particular time period."

For all you know the CIA was all on the verge of a breakthrough with psionics next to the room where they dosing Kaczynski with LSD right before the squid exploded, but we'll never know because it literally doesn't matter and doesn't affect the plot in the slightest even if they did.

"Trust me bro, he just caught bullets out of the air that one time bro, it's totally grounded for mega-geniuses to invent and implement entire fields of applied science bro, stop laughing bro, this isn't like any of those baby books you enjoy its got swearing and sex, bro"

Yes, that is silly, I agree, thankfully its also an inconsequential oneoff. If a critical part of the plot was made or broken on his ability to catch bullets I wouldn't be praising watchmen and I would think its the same as the shitty baby books.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Your criticism of watchmen essentially boils down to "The government isn't as efficient in a fictional field of science as I envisioned it being at this particular time period."

The government in question has Laplace's Demon at their beck and call. They should not have any trouble with anything related to the hard sciences (it's like putting godlike powers into your stories creates tons of potential plot holes, crazy.)

Yes, that is silly, I agree, thankfully its also an inconsequential oneoff. If a critical part of the plot was made or broken on his ability to catch bullets I wouldn't be praising watchmen and I would think its the same as the shitty baby books.

Veidt doesn't catch the bullet, he dies right there and never gets to grandstand about how murdering millions of people is ackshully good. So it's kind of important. You can say "he could have been wearing body armor," but he wasn't.

Now that I think of it, are you Alan Moore? (If so, please stop writing about beloved children's literary characters getting gang banged, it's gross) you seem to very hung up on this idealized version of Watchmen as opposed to the fun-but-flawed story that actually exists.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

The government in question has Laplace's Demon at their beck and call. They should not have any trouble with anything related to the hard sciences (it's like putting godlike powers into your stories creates tons of potential plot holes, crazy.)

Manhattan can just say he doesn't give a shit. That is the entire point of manhattan that has been his entire character arc since literally the first scene we ever see him and the culmination of his entire character in the finale.

Veidt doesn't catch the bullet, he dies right there and never gets to grandstand about how murdering millions of people is ackshully good. So it's kind of important. You can say "he could have been wearing body armor," but he wasn't.

If your gigantic world breaking plothole can be fixed by swapping out one word, its probably not a gigantic world breaking plothole.

Now that I think of it, are you Alan Moore? (If so, please stop writing about beloved children's literary characters getting gang banged, it's gross) you seem to very hung up on this idealized version of Watchmen as opposed to the fun-but-flawed story that actually exists.

Stay mad that nobody takes your baby books for manchildren seriously.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Manhattan can just say he doesn't give a shit. That is the entire point of manhattan that has been his entire character arc since literally the first scene we ever see him and the culmination of his entire character in the finale.

His arc is losing interest in humanity, then regaining it while coming to terms with the fact that he is no longer human. He starts off invested in his fading humanity, trying to connect with Laurie, hits his nihilistic nadir after going into exile, then regaining his perspective after Laurie comes to terms with the truth about her father. His last act in the story is to murder Rorschach specifically so humanity will not he destroyed. Did you read the book?

If your gigantic world breaking plothole can be fixed by swapping out one word, its probably not a gigantic world breaking plothole.

"This stupid thing could have been not stupid so thats the same as it not being stupid" doesn't work for me, sorry. Of course if you can't figure out "introducing psychic powers into a realistic setting makes it less realistic" there's not much to be done.

Stay mad that nobody takes your baby books for manchildren seriously.

Well, you started this conversation by ripping on comic books as a whole (with one conspicuous exception) because you just dont like them- which is why fell for Moore's nihilistic party trick. Watchmen is all those things you hate, it just doesn't look like it on the surface.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

I disagree with elements of what other people are saying but I'm mostly with them that the superhero genre is an intrinsic part of the Watchmen.

The reason I said that is because you can enjoy watchmen without liking superhero comics, or without ever even having read one. Its a deconstruction that works even without people being intimately or even vaguely familiar with the thing its deconstructing. I have older relatives who've never even touched a comic who like watchmen.

This is why it trascended the medium, because you don't need to be a comic fan to enjoy it.

His arc is losing interest in humanity, then regaining it while coming to terms with the fact that he is no longer human. He starts off invested in his fading humanity, trying to connect with Laurie, hits his nihilistic nadir after going into exile, then regaining his perspective after Laurie comes to terms with the truth about her father. His last act in the story is to murder Rorschach specifically so humanity will not he destroyed. Did you read the book?

*His last act is to leave for another galaxy and try to start building humanity anew.

What part of that act to you screams that you would show up at the CIA office one day and start telling them how to conquer the world using psionics?

"This stupid thing could have been not stupid so thats the same as it not being stupid" doesn't work for me, sorry. Of course if you can't figure out "introducing psychic powers into a realistic setting makes it less realistic" there's not much to be done.

You keep insisting that the the setting's psychic powers ruin the immersion but you've yet to acknowledge that nobody can actually use them to begin with and nobody except veldt has the technology to even detect them reliably at all.

The only way they "break immertion" is because you personally think that governments haven't made enough progress based on a literally complete arbitrary value of how you think psionics would have worked if they were real.

Well, you started this conversation by ripping on comic books as a whole (with one conspicuous exception) because you just dont like them- which is why fell for Moore's nihilistic party trick. Watchmen is all those things you hate, it just doesn't look like it on the surface.

I don't like comic books because they're badly writen slop with such a lack of consistency and care for storytelling that they are literally the standard for bad writing. They are the pulp of modern day, except even pulp ended up shitting out a few masterpieces by accident, while comics haven't even managed that.

I like watchmen because its cohesive, consistent, intelligently writen and develops its characters in believable and intriguing ways overlayed with a well paced murder mystery.

I don't care that it can be perceived as nihilistic just like I don't care the comics are good vs bad. You can do good vs bad intelligencly (lord of the rings) or you can do it for retard babies (superhero comics), just like you can do nihilism intelligently (watchmen) or you can do it for retard manchildren (rick and morty).

The fact that you keep crying about good vs bad and baby comics and nihilism makes me think you actually are insecure about the fact that comic writing quality is basically for babies.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

You keep insisting that the the setting's psychic powers ruin the immersion but you've yet to acknowledge that nobody can actually use them to begin with and nobody except veldt has the technology to even detect them reliably at all.

Except they can use them, Veidt located specimens/donors/victims by targeting "gifted psychics." So there is an effect there, which there has to be for Veidt to pursue this line of inquiry at all. If there was literally no evidence at all of psychic powers and Veidt decided to pursue it anyway and just miraculously happened to be right, that's an ass pull even bigger than the one we got.

What part of that act to you screams that you would show up at the CIA office one day and start telling them how to conquer the world using psionics?

Because that's the thing that happened at the end of his character arc. It's not the thing that happened during his documented decades of doing (and not doing) whatever the government told him because he'd lost touch with human morality. He specifically does nothing as Comedian guns down a pregnant woman because he saw no reason to stop him. For that Dr. Manhattan to take some kind of principled stand against his handlers because... reasons? is the farthest thing from how he's portrayed at that time.

The reason I said that is because you can enjoy watchmen without liking superhero comics, or without ever even having read one. Its a deconstruction that works even without people being intimately or even vaguely familiar with the thing its deconstructing. I have older relatives who've never even touched a comic who like watchmen.

That does not prove what you think it proves. I've gotten friends and family who don't know anything about 40K into some of the tie-in novels, which they enjoy not because they're le grand literature, hon hon hon, but because they're fun. That's what Watchmen is: fun. It's an unconventional entry in the genre, but that doesn't make it not a genre entry- not requiring liking other comic books doesn't prove those other comics are shit, or that Watchmen is some transcendent literary colossus. It just proves that Watchmen is overall good, which is obvious.

The fact that you keep crying about good vs bad and baby comics and nihilism makes me think you actually are insecure about the fact that comic writing quality is basically for babies.

It could be that, or it could be that you're malding about Mr goring your sacred cow, which is why you've been reply guying me for like two pages. Speaking of which, hit me up in DMs if you want to keep this going, I occasionally post productive stuff here and don't want a threadban.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Except they can use them, Veidt located specimens/donors/victims by targeting "gifted psychics." So there is an effect there, which there has to be for Veidt to pursue this line of inquiry at all. If there was literally no evidence at all of psychic powers and Veidt decided to pursue it anyway and just miraculously happened to be right, that's an ass pull even bigger than the one we got.

Again, literally throwaway lines nobody gives a shit about that you could remove from the comic that has no effect on the plot and nobody would notice if it was gone.

Because that's the thing that happened at the end of his character arc. It's not the thing that happened during his documented decades of doing (and not doing) whatever the government told him because he'd lost touch with human morality. He specifically does nothing as Comedian guns down a pregnant woman because he saw no reason to stop him. For that Dr. Manhattan to take some kind of principled stand against his handlers because... reasons? is the farthest thing from how he's portrayed at that time.

He just gets fed up with humanity and literally fucks off to another galaxy never to return. He followed the government at first but its clear he'd gotten more and more detached over time caring less and less.

That does not prove what you think it proves.

This is responding to a completely seperate discussion on whether or not watchmen good in spite of superhero comics or regardless of them.

It could be that, or it could be that you're malding about Mr goring your sacred cow, which is why you've been reply guying me for like two pages.

How do you not have the nessesary self awareness to realize that this literally applies to you and superhero comics?

Speaking of which, hit me up in DMs if you want to keep this going, I occasionally post productive stuff here and don't want a threadban.

I don't like DMs, they're temporary and lack outside contribution, if you want you can ask a mod to split this off into mass debates or something.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

I know we're slapfighting about Watchmen still, but going back to the whole "demons inherent to the medium" thing. Plays and the theater in general has a massive problem with the post-intermission never being as good as the pre-intermission to the point where its almost a meme in broadway circles and is a big reason people feel like splitting Wicked in two parts won't be good. the 2nd half is so much worse than the 1st half and has none of the good songs.

he doesn't give a shit about humanity anymore.

I'M Of the personal theory that John never gave a shit about humanity, he clearly shows the signs of depression and lethargy to the extreme. if you go back to him "pre-transformation" he's still just as unwilling to do anything for/about anyone. Everything from his girlfriend to his career was thrust upon him by someone else. even his "friend" is just a workmate that decided they should hang out together. of course re-writing history like that is also depression but still. that whole "what's the use" thing is rather typical. Another thing to mention is that the second he "snaps out of it" he walks right into a death trap. which i find sort of funny.

You are aware that its not an actual squid yes? It is an amalgamated chimera created by the top writers and artists of the 20th century expressly for the purpose of being the most otherwordly and alien thing humanity has ever seen.

I know its a big deal that its not in the film but the way watchmen fans go on about it; it feels like it should be a main character. YOU DON'T EVEN GET TO SEE THE ENTIRE SQUID, AND ITS ONLY ON ONE PAGE AND ITS ALREADY DEAD. As for the positronics, it really doesn't fucking matter to me, the whole "plan" is such a macguffin to the whole "i already did it minutes ago" line and it comes at the end of the whole book so either you're hooked enough on the whole story to buy into it or you hate the story enough to not care by that point.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Plays and the theater in general has a massive problem with the post-intermission never being as good as the pre-intermission to the point where its almost a meme in broadway circles and is a big reason people feel like splitting Wicked in two parts won't be good. the 2nd half is so much worse than the 1st half and has none of the good songs.

Can you elaborate? I've never heard of this.

I know its a big deal that its not in the film but the way watchmen fans go on about it; it feels like it should be a main character. YOU DON'T EVEN GET TO SEE THE ENTIRE SQUID, AND ITS ONLY ON ONE PAGE AND ITS ALREADY DEAD. As for the positronics, it really doesn't fucking matter to me, the whole "plan" is such a macguffin to the whole "i already did it minutes ago" line and it comes at the end of the whole book so either you're hooked enough on the whole story to buy into it or you hate the story enough to not care by that point.

I've been repeteadly bouncing back and forth between the comic book ending and the movie ending. On first read, I thought the comic ending was fucking retarded and the movie ending was "clearly" superior.

Over time I've mellowed out to it and I'm still not sure which one I really prefer.

Trying everything back to doctor manhattan and pinning it on him as an extant force is great and fitting and feels pretty set up, but the problem is that the comedian's breakdown and the entire world being one big great joke doesn't really make sense without the squid.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

he entire world being one big great joke

EH, you don't know that. The Comedian is the closet thing to Dr.Manhattan's best friend and has been for decades by that point. He knows the guy better than anyone, the idea that mr. spineless would go insane and destroy the world is sort of ironic. It would also tie into him going up to the villian (presumbly one of the handful of other people that would know the real personality of Dr.Manhattan) and trying to talk about how silly it is. If you also consider Dr,Manhattan also fucking The Comedian's daughter it might also play into how absurd and how much of a cruel joke it is.

To use a kiwifarms example, think about how Maddox, JessePS, and other people who know the Real Dick Masterson reacted to him getting the entire internet and especially this site to believe his whole "world's most amazing chad" bullshit. Like knowing what you know now about JuJu the Cow, listen or watch those early episodes and not just laugh at how absurd it all is.

like we literally have a half dozen real life examples of people breaking down at such absurd jokes, and none of that involves the end of the world or superpowers either (unless you think being a pedo is a superpower)

 

[Oilspill Battery]

EH, you don't know that. The Comedian is the closet thing to Dr.Manhattan's best friend and has been for decades by that point. He knows the guy better than anyone, the idea that mr. spineless would go insane and destroy the world is sort of ironic. It would also tie into him going up to the villian (presumbly one of the handful of other people that would know the real personality of Dr.Manhattan) and trying to talk about how silly it is. If you also consider Dr,Manhattan also fucking The Comedian's daughter it might also play into how absurd and how much of a cruel joke it is.

I always though watchmen was snyder's best work and probably the best comic book adaptation we'll ever get. (Where I live it wasn't even billed as a comic book movie, it was just billed as a regular movie for adults and shit)

But that bit I mentioned always bothered me whenever I rewatched it and I just sorta mentally ignored it, but I really like your explenation for it, it genuinely improves the movie for me and I'd say you've brought me back over to team snyder.

 

[Overly Serious]

I've spilled a lot of ink on the psionics and internal consistency discussion. I don't require people to agree with me, I only care that they understand me. I feel I've articulated my own position well enough that agree or disagree, it's at least not due to misunderstanding my argument. So I personally am moving on from that specific area. I don't think @Krokodil Overdose is wrong in his facts so much as how much weight he places on them. As @Oilspill Battery points out, there are in-universe references to psychics before that point so we know it's a real thing in-universe. I'm fine with the government not having figured out how to weaponise it in a way that demands on-screen covering of that. Who even knows that a "trauma bomb" would be a good weapon compared to tank, nukes and rayguns or whatever else they work on. Anyway, not being drawn into this futher. I'll comment on the below, though.

That doesn't count. I do love the fact that people with magic powers were just such a given to people that they didn't need an explanation. Moses and his snake staff trick being easily replicated by someone else like it was very low level magic was pretty odd too.

I've always taken that to indicate that it was a magic trick in the modern sense of the term. He turns a stick into a snake - sounds like standard suggestion and misdirection and sleight of hand. He turns water to blood - adding dye? He summons frogs? Several ways to do that. They sound like conjuring more than they do miracles. Moses, if he existed, was a Hebrew raised in the royal court and presumably knew the tricks and magic of the priesthood. The whole thing sounds more like someone initiated into some Mystery Cult going rogue and trying to split off from the rest. So much of the Old Testament is just a book of dirty tricks and parables about getting ahead by being sneaky or untrustworthy. Like David vs. Goliath - many ancient cultures had a tradition of settling things via appointed champions. And for good reason: actual combat in an age without antibiotics, hospitals, surgery or the ability to care for disabled people (or disabled to be able to contribute) was a disaster. You couldn't have dozens of your menfolk crippled, brained and maimed. So two brave champions would battle to decide it for all. This also worked because wars weren't usually existential back then. Who has rights to the fish in this river, who gets to live in this valley, etc. So the champion system was proportionate. What do we get in David and Goliath? The Israelites repeatedly refusing to accept the results of the fight and demanding do-overs culminating in some little shit who kills the enemy champion from afar with a sucker punch missile. Most of the "miracles" in the Old Testament read as tricks, not miracles. March around Jericho for seven days blowing trumpets and banging drums and then God brings the walls tumbling down? Or just masking the sound of sappers undermining them?

So when it comes to stories of magic in the Old Testament most of it sounds more like a Mystery Cult and its initiates bamboozling the masses and the kings with "magic".

The reason I said that is because you can enjoy watchmen without liking superhero comics, or without ever even having read one. Its a deconstruction that works even without people being intimately or even vaguely familiar with the thing its deconstructing. I have older relatives who've never even touched a comic who like watchmen.

This feels tautological to me. If you like Watchmen then you do like a superhero comic by definition. Your older relatives have touched a superhero comic - Watchmen is a superhero comic. And I would imagine if they liked it there are other comic works out there that they would like but the barrier to entry due to so much of it depending on knowledge outside that specific story is the issue. Which was your earlier point I did agree with, it's very hard to find a superhero epic that is standalone, in the West. But I don't think you can use the argument above to suggest that Watchmen isn't or doesn't need to be a superhero comic. I think that has to be argued by reference to the text. I laid out my reasons earlier why I think the superhero elements (costumes, names, etc.) are an intrinsic part of the themes and story.

 

[Prehistoric Jazz]

They Live, Road to Perdition and The Crow were pretty good adaptations. History Of Violence as well.

 

[Overly Serious]

I always though watchmen was snyder's best work and probably the best comic book adaptation we'll ever get.

Watchmen is without question Snyder's greatest work. And in terms of adaptation it was deeply faithful to the comic in so many ways. The only plot change he made improved it substantially, imo. I was completely taken with it when it came out. But every fucking conversation I had with Americans about it was just "blue dong" over and over and over. It was like having a conversation with an eight year old every time. American prudishness and weird fixation on it. They just couldn't take parts of it seriously. Drove me nuts. So. Fucking. What?

They Live, Road to Perdition and The Crow were pretty good adaptations. History Of Violence as well.

They Live was a comic first? And for The Crow, well, going to assume you mean the original and not the recent one.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

but I really like your explenation for it,

i'm surprised people really don't talk about The Comedian as much as the blue man and Walter. He really is quite amazing for just being able to "figure out life" in a way. I know someone ITT has said it already but the way he basically destroys the minutemen ii and does it in a way that makes sure his daughter (who hates him) won't try to go through with it anyway just to spite him is insanely impressive, i mean again, look at this website, most parents in real life can't do what he did there, meaning he is really a superhero. The conversation too between him and the daughter and how it goes from "oh this bastard wants to rape me too" to "my father really was just looking out for me" once Sally has a change of heart is impressive. Hell by all accounts The Comedian was right about Dr.Manhattan too, if he gave a fuck he could have stopped him the same way he stops Rochboch at the end of the novel, but instead he doesn't give a fuck.

Like that other guy said ITT, because these characters are so fully realized they just so easily get away from Moore and turn sterotypes into real people. No way in hell Alan Moore thought to make a character that's an ultra feminist with a shitty boyfriend and turn her into a trad wife. but because they set up the world and these characters so well and were all about "what if this was real" it turned into that. Having said that, the entire prison arc with Rochboch is dogshit. I'm really supposed to believe the black psychiatrist in fucking NYC hasn't heard stories like his before? every woman in time square back then had a kid like that and every crime report featured some dead woman presumably killed within earshot of thousands of people.

So when it comes to stories of magic in the Old Testament most of it sounds more like a Mystery Cult and its initiates bamboozling the masses and the kings with "magic".

I like that, the idea of the Old Testament as a sort of Burn Notice story of a religion is pretty neat.

So. Fucking. What?

to be fair that was sort of the point, he was so withdrawn he really didn't even fucking bother with clothes, he really shouldn't have made it so big though.

 

[Overly Serious]

to be fair that was sort of the point, he was so withdrawn he really didn't even fucking bother with clothes, he really shouldn't have made it so big though.

Dr. Manhattan controls matter and energy. He can't feel cold.

EDIT: If I was unclear, I have no problem with the nakedness because as you say, it's the point. My issue is every American I talked to about the movie couldn't get past talking about it like it was this huge deal.