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- Jan 1, 2015
*looks at subforum*
*looks at Null*
Why. Why dude.
*looks at Null*
Why. Why dude.
Islam
- Thread starter melty
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- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
Well, to get us back on track, I just read a really interesting opinion piece by liberal Saudi journalist Nadine Al-Budair, who lives in Qatar (good thing, too, because I doubt the Kingdom would tolerate a woman with opinions like Nadine). She asks her fellow Muslims to try to imagine how they would react if they were the constant victims of Christian terrorists in an effort to understand why the Middle East and Islam itself are becoming more and more criticized.
I really wish more people would read this. For the record, hatred and discrimination against Muslims based on the actions of other, unrelated Muslims is completely unacceptable. But at the same time, I think it's so important for people to start acknowledging why Westerners are so fearful of Muslims. It's so frustrating to see people, time and time again, act like there's absolutely nothing wrong with Islam or that Islamic terrorism isn't a huge problem right now.
Imagine a Western youth coming here and carrying out a suicide mission in one of our public squares in the name of the Cross. Imagine that two skyscrapers had collapsed in some Arab capital, and that an extremist Christian group, donning millennium-old garb, had emerged to take responsibility for the event, while stressing its determination to revive Christian teachings or some Christian rulings, according to its understanding, to live like in the time [of Jesus] and his disciples, and to implement certain edicts of Christian scholars…
Imagine hearing the voices of monks and priests from churches and prayer houses in and out of the Arab world, screaming on loudspeakers and levelling accusations against Muslims, calling them infidels, and chanting: 'God, eliminate the Muslims and defeat them all.'
Imagine that we had provided an endless number of foreign groups with visas, ID cards, citizenships, proper jobs, free education, free modern healthcare, social security, and so on, and later a member of one of these groups came out, consumed by hatred and bloodlust, and killed our sons on our streets, in our buildings, in our newspaper [offices], in our mosques and in our schools.
Imagine a Frenchmen or a German in Paris or Berlin leading his Muslim neighbor [somewhere] in order to slaughter him and then freeze his head in an ice box, in a cold and calculating manner... as one terrorist did with the head of an American in Riyadh years ago.[2]
Imagine that we visited their country as tourists and they shot at us, blew up car bombs near us, and announced their opposition to our presence [there] by chanting: 'Remove the Muslims from the land of culture.'
These images are far from the mind of the Arab or Muslim terrorist because he is certain, or used to be certain, that the West is humanitarian and that the Western citizen would refuse to respond [in this manner] to the barbaric crimes [of the Muslim terrorists]. Despite the terrorist acts of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, we [Muslims] have been on [Western] soil for years without any fear or worry. Millions of Muslim tourists, immigrants, students, and job seekers [travel to the West] with the doors open [to them], and the streets safe [for them].
However, how much longer [will this last]? Today things are different. [Western] anger [at Muslims] is apparent, and they make scary declarations. One who recently championed [these views] is Donald Trump, who demanded to bar Muslims from entering the U.S.
It is strange that we [Muslims] believe we have the right to condemn such statements rather than address the implications of some of our extremist curricula, our education, and our regimes, and be ashamed [of them]... It is strange that we condemn [the West] instead of addressing what is happening in our midst - the extremist ways in which we interpret the shari'a and our reactionary attitudes towards each other and the world. It is strange that we condemn instead of apologizing to the world.
How would you react if a European blew up a theater in your city or a café that your son frequents? What would you do if you heard curses against your religion and faith every Sunday, as they hear [against theirs] from some of our imams on Fridays and other days?
Imagine being in Amsterdam, London, or New York and knowing that students [there] learn as part of their curricula that you are an infidel, and that killing you is jihad that leads to the virgins of paradise. Would you extend your stay there to the end of the summer, or stay away? [Would you] blow yourself up [as the Muslim terrorists do], or would you do less than that: [Merely] conquer your rage and demand to ban Christians from entering Arab countries. What would you do?
[Imagine] the war that would break out had Westerners shed their values in the face of the bloody crimes committed by foreigners, and if Western or Christian counter-radicalism had emerged in our Arab cities?
After all these farces, some Arab analyst comes out touting a pathetic message, and reciting the same words in his friend's ear that he has repeated millions of times: 'Those [Muslims who commit terrorism] do not represent Islam, but only themselves.'
This is all we [know how to do] – absolve [ourselves] of guilt.
Imagine hearing the voices of monks and priests from churches and prayer houses in and out of the Arab world, screaming on loudspeakers and levelling accusations against Muslims, calling them infidels, and chanting: 'God, eliminate the Muslims and defeat them all.'
Imagine that we had provided an endless number of foreign groups with visas, ID cards, citizenships, proper jobs, free education, free modern healthcare, social security, and so on, and later a member of one of these groups came out, consumed by hatred and bloodlust, and killed our sons on our streets, in our buildings, in our newspaper [offices], in our mosques and in our schools.
Imagine a Frenchmen or a German in Paris or Berlin leading his Muslim neighbor [somewhere] in order to slaughter him and then freeze his head in an ice box, in a cold and calculating manner... as one terrorist did with the head of an American in Riyadh years ago.[2]
Imagine that we visited their country as tourists and they shot at us, blew up car bombs near us, and announced their opposition to our presence [there] by chanting: 'Remove the Muslims from the land of culture.'
These images are far from the mind of the Arab or Muslim terrorist because he is certain, or used to be certain, that the West is humanitarian and that the Western citizen would refuse to respond [in this manner] to the barbaric crimes [of the Muslim terrorists]. Despite the terrorist acts of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, we [Muslims] have been on [Western] soil for years without any fear or worry. Millions of Muslim tourists, immigrants, students, and job seekers [travel to the West] with the doors open [to them], and the streets safe [for them].
However, how much longer [will this last]? Today things are different. [Western] anger [at Muslims] is apparent, and they make scary declarations. One who recently championed [these views] is Donald Trump, who demanded to bar Muslims from entering the U.S.
It is strange that we [Muslims] believe we have the right to condemn such statements rather than address the implications of some of our extremist curricula, our education, and our regimes, and be ashamed [of them]... It is strange that we condemn [the West] instead of addressing what is happening in our midst - the extremist ways in which we interpret the shari'a and our reactionary attitudes towards each other and the world. It is strange that we condemn instead of apologizing to the world.
How would you react if a European blew up a theater in your city or a café that your son frequents? What would you do if you heard curses against your religion and faith every Sunday, as they hear [against theirs] from some of our imams on Fridays and other days?
Imagine being in Amsterdam, London, or New York and knowing that students [there] learn as part of their curricula that you are an infidel, and that killing you is jihad that leads to the virgins of paradise. Would you extend your stay there to the end of the summer, or stay away? [Would you] blow yourself up [as the Muslim terrorists do], or would you do less than that: [Merely] conquer your rage and demand to ban Christians from entering Arab countries. What would you do?
[Imagine] the war that would break out had Westerners shed their values in the face of the bloody crimes committed by foreigners, and if Western or Christian counter-radicalism had emerged in our Arab cities?
After all these farces, some Arab analyst comes out touting a pathetic message, and reciting the same words in his friend's ear that he has repeated millions of times: 'Those [Muslims who commit terrorism] do not represent Islam, but only themselves.'
This is all we [know how to do] – absolve [ourselves] of guilt.
I really wish more people would read this. For the record, hatred and discrimination against Muslims based on the actions of other, unrelated Muslims is completely unacceptable. But at the same time, I think it's so important for people to start acknowledging why Westerners are so fearful of Muslims. It's so frustrating to see people, time and time again, act like there's absolutely nothing wrong with Islam or that Islamic terrorism isn't a huge problem right now.
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2014
All muslims I've met were complete scumbags and horrible, deceitful people. The only group I've ever had any problems with in my life.
Greetings from Germany, I live the street down from a refugee shelter.
Greetings from Germany, I live the street down from a refugee shelter.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2015
Maybe Muslims just hate Germans?
Cause the local Muslims are super nice around here. I'm from East Coast USA.
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2014
Apparently they don't hate us enough to not come here and leech off our social system while breeding like rats and trying to force their backwards-ass "culture" on us while playing the victim card at the same time.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2015
All the muslims I have met were good and considerate people but they tended to be either wealthy people from subsaharan africa, the brain drain that left the arab world when it really went to shit, central asians, or hard drinking turks
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2013
Of the Muslims I know, the best people would be considered the worst Muslims.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2013
It's cheaper/easier to go from the middle east to Europe, compared to going from the middle east to the US. More poor muslims end up in Europe.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2015
Of course. But that makes it seems like it's more of an economic/social problem then "Islam is full of the worst people", which this thread sort of leans towards at times.
Shit heels who take advantage of others hospitality (migrants in central for example) ruin the perception of what's really going on. It desensitizes our viewpoint to pretty much "well Islam is bad and we shouldn't let them in".
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2013
Well, I do think it (and almost every problem like this, like racism) is almost entirely an economic problem.
However, "almost" in that sentence is important. I think that the current state of Islam is shittier than other religions. Somewhat. Probably not much shittier. But there are issues, to be sure.
However, I do think we ("we" meaning the United States) should let them in. I think that the United States is more experienced with handling a diverse population than some countries in Europe. Germany and Scandinavian countries, in particular. They have an extremely naive attitude about what works and what doesn't work.
I trust my government to be welcoming without being overcompensating.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
I remember when Autopsy87 called out Steve Shives for his abject cowardice and outright stupidity towards Islam. It's a very good video, but much as Shives can go fuck himself, I'll concede that there is a point to there being many ways to interpret a text.
Where Shives kneecaps this gestating valid point is by failing to state that even though there are many ways a text can be interpreted, that doesn't mean certain interpretations won't carry more weight than others. With Islam, in modern times, the most well-funded, widely listened to, and obeyed interpretations are from either demented reactionaries* or cynical crooks using said demented reactionaries to protect their authority.**
We in the First World and those of the Second World have sinned ourselves on this. We forsook what was right and went with what was easy due to crooked Cold War politics, and used violence and authoritarianism as shortcuts rather than taking the long road of actually promoting liberal societies who might not fall in line whenever we want them. Now the problems have metastasized, and religious fascists have achieved tremendous success in redirecting populist anger for their own benefits. But none of this is going to improve by sticking our heads in the sand and pretending Islamic religious fascism is something that doesn't exist or can be dealt with peacefully.
Tragically, we're already falling for easy answers again with the left preaching surrender, the Trumpites preaching war crimes, and both sides preaching that it isn't a big deal and we should just ignore it. Even many neocons have now lost their will to carry on, but it will fail. Until we clamp down hard on Islamic religious fascism on all fronts -- including those we pretend are our allies like the Saudis -- we'll all be either crooks or prisoners.
* The Hai'a, Ayatollahs Khomeini and Khamenei, Osama Bin Laden.
** King Fahd ibn Abdulaziz al-Saud, Saddam Hussein, Yasser Arafat.
Where Shives kneecaps this gestating valid point is by failing to state that even though there are many ways a text can be interpreted, that doesn't mean certain interpretations won't carry more weight than others. With Islam, in modern times, the most well-funded, widely listened to, and obeyed interpretations are from either demented reactionaries* or cynical crooks using said demented reactionaries to protect their authority.**
We in the First World and those of the Second World have sinned ourselves on this. We forsook what was right and went with what was easy due to crooked Cold War politics, and used violence and authoritarianism as shortcuts rather than taking the long road of actually promoting liberal societies who might not fall in line whenever we want them. Now the problems have metastasized, and religious fascists have achieved tremendous success in redirecting populist anger for their own benefits. But none of this is going to improve by sticking our heads in the sand and pretending Islamic religious fascism is something that doesn't exist or can be dealt with peacefully.
Tragically, we're already falling for easy answers again with the left preaching surrender, the Trumpites preaching war crimes, and both sides preaching that it isn't a big deal and we should just ignore it. Even many neocons have now lost their will to carry on, but it will fail. Until we clamp down hard on Islamic religious fascism on all fronts -- including those we pretend are our allies like the Saudis -- we'll all be either crooks or prisoners.
* The Hai'a, Ayatollahs Khomeini and Khamenei, Osama Bin Laden.
** King Fahd ibn Abdulaziz al-Saud, Saddam Hussein, Yasser Arafat.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2014
So...how about Brussels? There's been some strong anti-Islam resentment going around, such as Twitter hashtags. What do you think this means for Muslims in the foreseeable future? Personally I think it's worrisome seeing as how this could be the scapegoat needed for a dictator to rise to power. And, yeah, there are people here in America dumb enough to let that happen.
2020 EDIT: Lol fuck what I said, remove the fuck outta kebab and make what the Serbs did look like a fukken joke.
2020 EDIT: Lol fuck what I said, remove the fuck outta kebab and make what the Serbs did look like a fukken joke.
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- Joined
- May 25, 2015
Sometimes i feel like with the advent of the internet, not only have we become closer together as a world, but far more easily divided as well when coupling the ability to communicate across the world incredibly easily, providing an rather hard to police environment and humanities reactionary nature. but then at the end of the day, i realize that im some fat slob on the internet and that shit from half a world away doesnt really effect me and shouldnt effect those around me.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
People are justifiably pissed and sick of Muslim bullshit.
Unfortunately, most of them are stupid enough to think the Trumps of the world actually care about stopping Islamofascism. They'll just continue a long history of punishment for the weak, and lenience on the strong. I wouldn't be surprised even slightly if Trump increases weapons sales to Pakistan and Turkey, petrol product purchases from Saudi Arabia, and both from Iran.
Notice how these fuckers never say to put the Islamofascist with money and power's nuts in a vice. Until that happens, ut's all about stoking populist anger while keeping the money flowing into their pockets.
Trust not these fascist pigs with shit.
I was thinking today about how Muslims are allowed to rape non Muslims because they don't consider them people. But are Muslims allowed to rape animals? If not, does that mean they think non Muslims are lower than animals? If they are, can they rape pigs or are those still off the table?
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2015
Prohibition for health reasons is nothing to do with respect for animals. But muslims are not allowed to rape other muslims. Syrian refugees just do it anyways, they also drink despite it not being allowed
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
I'm pretty sure the fine print just gives the rape-clearance to war captives. Not like it matters to those on the wrong side of the gun, or even stops rape and sodomy from happening in warzones to those in the right religious group all the time.
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
There is no official consensus because Islam has very few official consensuses (due to lacking a central figure or organization like, say, the Catholic Church), but a very prominent Muslim cleric and Quranic scholar named Dr. Zakir Naik had this to say:
I love how it's the animal that's tainted; in other words, it's totally okay for men to rape animals, but then the animals are the ones who have to pay for it.
Also, please note that I am in no way implying that this is a common Islamic belief. It's certainly not. But it's very concerning that the man known as "an authority on comparative religion", "perhaps the most influential Salafi ideologue in India", and "the world's leading Salafi evangelist" has and openly expresses these views to thousands of people. Oh, and Naik also
- Advocates the death penalty for homosexuals and for apostasy from Islam
- Supports a ban on the construction of non-Muslim places of worship in Muslim lands (he tries to justify this by saying that it would be like allowing people to teach that 2 +2 = 6; because Islam is the only TRUE AND HONEST religion, no other filthy false faiths should be allowed to prosper in Muslim-majority countries)
- Has expressed support for Osama Bin Laden ("If Osama bin Laden is terrorizing the enemies of Islam, I am with him. If he is terrorizing America, the biggest terrorist, then I am with him.”)
- Said "Americans swap wives at will because they eat pigs which also swap their wives" (lol wat)
- Believes that it is required for a woman to cover herself entirely except for her face and hands up to her wrists. This is Naik’s solution to sexual assault.
- Saudi fucking Arabia recently acknowledged Naik’s “services to Islam”, awarding him with the King Faisal International Prize. That alone tells you a lot.
I like that his Wikipedia page clarifies that he thinks it's ok to have sex with your female slaves. It's also great that other Muslims criticism of him is apparently based on him trashing other religions and branches of islam and not his views on sheep fucking and slave rape. Great religion.