Islam

[Lefty's Revenge]

@Lefty's Revenge ISIS' strategy is to flood Europe with refugees? That sounds too much like a harebrained conspiracy theory.

Why not? The attacks on Paris show they're clearly using it to their advantage. Besides their whole goal is to terrorize and disrupt life. Think about it, they're not gonna try to take on America or Europe in a head on fire fight. They'd be vaporized. But that is their endgame, defeating the west and the rest of the globe. So they need out of the box strategies to do it and just occasionally bombing or shooting up somewhere won't cut it.

Maybe they didn't predict that the migrants would happen, which even that seems a little hard to believe what with them killing everyone who isn't them, but they've definitely redrawn their plans to utilize the migrant crisis to further their goals.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

Why not? The attacks on Paris show they're clearly using it to their advantage. Besides their whole goal is to terrorize and disrupt life. Think about it, they're not gonna try to take on America or Europe in a head on fire fight. They'd be vaporized. But that is their endgame, defeating the west and the rest of the globe. So they need out of the box strategies to do it and just occasionally bombing or shooting up somewhere won't cut it.

Maybe they didn't predict that the migrants would happen, which even that seems a little hard to believe what with them killing everyone who isn't them, but they've definitely redrawn their plans to utilize the migrant crisis to further their goals.

Using migrants and deliberately causing the migrant crisis as a weapon against Europe are two different things, please don't go Alex Jones on us.

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

Why not? The attacks on Paris show they're clearly using it to their advantage. Besides their whole goal is to terrorize and disrupt life. Think about it, they're not gonna try to take on America or Europe in a head on fire fight. They'd be vaporized. But that is their endgame, defeating the west and the rest of the globe. So they need out of the box strategies to do it and just occasionally bombing or shooting up somewhere won't cut it.

Maybe they didn't predict that the migrants would happen, which even that seems a little hard to believe what with them killing everyone who isn't them, but they've definitely redrawn their plans to utilize the migrant crisis to further their goals.

See the problem most people fail to recognize with ISIS is that they are an extremist group that like a wildfire exploded almost instantly, gaining tons of traction as it goes along, However just like a wildfire, ISIS's policies, their extremism, their rigidness, is going to burn out because it is unsustainable, Just like all extremists groups, they may do some really fucked up shit before they do go, but eventually they will fade into some form of obscurity, at least on the world stage.

 

[Cosmos]

Using migrants and deliberately causing the migrant crisis as a weapon against Europe are two different things, please don't go Alex Jones on us.

ISIS didn't deliberately cause the migrant crisis, but they're most definitely using it to their advantage; I don't think that can be denied. ISIS members have bragged about how easy it is for them to pass through borders and people have actually been stopped and detained by border officials because they're carrying bombs and other weapons.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

ISIS didn't deliberately cause the migrant crisis, but they're most definitely using it to their advantage; I don't think that can be denied. ISIS members have bragged about how easy it is for them to pass through borders and people have actually been stopped and detained by border officials because they're carrying bombs and other weapons.

I didn't deny that.

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

Using migrants and deliberately causing the migrant crisis as a weapon against Europe are two different things, please don't go Alex Jones on us.

I don't really see the huge jump in logic between the two. But to each his own.

See the problem most people fail to recognize with ISIS is that they are an extremist group that like a wildfire exploded almost instantly, gaining tons of traction as it goes along, However just like a wildfire, ISIS's policies, their extremism, their rigidness, is going to burn out because it is unsustainable, Just like all extremists groups, they may do some really fucked up shit before they do go, but eventually they will fade into some form of obscurity, at least on the world stage.

Hopefully. My bigger concern with ISIS is we're essentially just playing whack-a-mole. First it was Al-Quaida (sp?), The Taliban, Hamas, now ISIS. The group may die out but the concept isn't going anywhere. Plus the flame keeps getting fueled by alot of the extremism we push here in the western world in response to it.

 

[Cosmos]

I have to say, I'm getting extremely fed up with the Islamic apologetics I see on every single article that's about Muslims doing bad things in the name of Islam. It's the same bullshit over and over again, and it all involves bashing Christianity or playing the cultural relativism card.

Spoiler: Seriously these responses are so fucking predictable

Excuse #1: There are Christian terrorists, too. Have you forgotten about all the attacks on abortion clinics?

I see the abortion clinic comparison all the time. Of course, attacks on abortion clinics/abortion providers are heinous and unacceptable (I'm saying this as a pro-life person btw; in fact, nearly all pro-lifers strongly condemn violent attacks on abortion providers because it kind of contradicts the, you know, pro-life angle). However, anti-abortion violence is nowhere near the level of Islamic extremism. Not even close. You can get a rundown of anti-abortion violence here and here, which clearly shows that the amount of anti-abortion violence in the world pales in comparison to the amount of Islamic violence there is.

Excuse #2: Blah blah blah Crusades blah blah blah Spanish Inquisition blah blah blah colonialism blah blah blah slavery...

There is an astounding amount of misinformation about the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition. Now, the Crusades really did devolve into chaos and violence, but everyone loves to conveniently forget that the Crusades were launched in 1096... about 400 years after the start of relentless Islamic imperialism that conquered many Christian areas and was slowly pushing its way into Europe. Muslims were hardly innocent victims, they were aggressive and threatening with their unrelenting expansion and subjection of Christian communities. Both sides have their own share of guilt, honestly.

The Spanish Inquisition has so many misconceptions around it I'll just link to these articles to do some clearing up. A really important thing to note is that the Inquisition "only" killed around 3,000-5,000 people. It goes without saying that this is still 3,000-5,000 people too many, but to put it into perspective, jihadists killed more than 5,000 people in just December of 2014. In other words, jihadists kill more people in the span of a couple of months than the Spanish Inquisition did in its entirety.

As for slavery and colonialism, Islam most certainly doesn't have its hands clean. Muslim slavers and conquers cited the Quran and Hadith to justify their cruelty, just like Christians quoted the Bible to justify theirs. A key difference, though, is that eventually Christian abolitionists used the Bible to denounce and discredit slavery. The Muslim world actively resisted outlawing slavery, only giving in after years of pressure from Western nations.

And most important of all... all of this shit happened hundreds of years ago. It's so frustrating to see people dredge up what happened tens or hundreds of years ago in an attempt to somehow justify jihadism. If you have to go back hundreds of years in Christian history to make a comparison to Islam, then that just shows how badly Islam needs to advance and reform.

Also, I just want to point out that the Catholic Church has formally apologized for many of the heinous actions its done in the past.

Excuse #3: Christians commit crimes all the time!

There's a massive difference between a Christian committing a crime and a Christian committing a crime in the name of Christianity. When jihadists blow themselves up or behead innocent civilians while screaming "ALLAHU AKBAR" or citing the Quran, they are clearly doing so in the name of Islam. But let's say a Muslim killed someone because they owed him a ton of money and he lost it after they refused to pay it back. Despite the perpetrator being a Muslim, it's clear that the crime was not committed in the name of Islam. The same applies to the majority of crimes committed by Christians, atheists, Jews, Hindus, and even Muslims; the perpetrator's religious beliefs (or lack of them) does not play a factor in the crime.

The fact of the matter is that most religious violence in the world today is perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam.

This shit really irritates me because it's helping to put off a much-needed Islamic reformation. By constantly asserting that Islam has no problems it needs to sort it and comparing modern jihadism to Christian violence in the past, people are basically saying that Islam doesn't need to undergo a reformation like Christianity and Judaism did in the past, which it clearly fucking needs to.

The rest of the major world religions have gone through their growing pains and, despite continued religious discrimination/violence/etc, are on the whole much more benign than they were in the past. Only Islam refuses to modernize, and it needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

 

[Sheikh_Speare]

Muslims want to instate Sharia everywhere they go and are beholden to no laws of man.

According to actual Islamic law, if someone immigrates to a country, they are under an amana (covenant) to abide by the laws of the country they enter, and if they break those laws they have no right to live there. If a Muslim makes an amana with a state, he is required by shari'ah to abide by it. This is why Islamic scholars like 'Umar al-Qadri have said that migrants who break laws must be deported.

Now, jihadists tend to be very choosy about what parts of shari'ah they follow. For all the talk about implementing Allah's law, if you actually read what their main ideologues write, they're really keen on creating loopholes or outright denying basic legal principles. There is a reason why nearly all terrorists belong to modern fundamentalist movements that seek to reinterpret Islamic law, while traditionalist Muslims (and by traditionalists, I mean Muslims who adhere to traditional Islamic creedal and legal formulations, as opposed to Wahhabis, Muslim Brotherhood members, etc.) mostly mind their own fucking business.

Also, in response to people saying "Islam needs a reformation like Christianity had!": you clearly don't know what the Reformation was. It wasn't some nice happy thing thing that made Christianity more liberal. The main products of the Refromation were puritanism and sectarian wars.

Islam HAS had a Reformation, and it's called Wahhabism. Wahhabism parallels the Protestantism in that it opposed veneration of saints, the theological systems that developed in the middle ages, the keeping of shrines, ritual practices that do not derive directly from scripture, and both opposed the central leader of the community at the time (the Pope in the case of Protestantism and the Caliph in the case of Wahhabism). Most early Protestants opposed Christmas and Wahhabis oppose celebrating the Prophet Muhammad's birthday (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam). There are even many parallels between the life of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and John Calvin.

What you want is not a an Islamic version of the Reformation, but an Islamic version of the Enlightenment.

(in fact, Sufism is greatly influenced by Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity)

As a Sufi, I can tell you this isn't really true. There are parallels, but Sufism is rooted very strongly in the Qur'an and Hadith. In most ways, we're actually more literal than Wahhabis.

For example, the Qur'an says that everywhere you turn is the Face of Allah. Wahhabis jump through hoops to deny the import of that verse, but Sufis take it as it is. Another example is the hadith which says that when someone worships Allah sincerely, Allah will become the eye by which he sees, the hand with which he grasps, etc. Wahhabis accept that this is a real statement of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam), but they generally ignore it and deny that it means what it says.

Also, we tend to be very strict in observing the shari'ah ourselves, but at the same time we believe (as the Qur'an says) that Allah's mercy prevails over all things, so we don't see a need to do as Wahhabis do and patrol the streets looking for vice. In fact, Sufis tend to be much more stringent in personal practice than Wahhabis are.

 

[Null]

@Sheikh_Speare And according to Muhammad,

1) You are allowed to lie to non-Muslims to make them complacent, and
2) You are to ignore his earlier orders if he contradicts himself later. That's why the Qu'ran is apparently "perfect", but Muhammad instructs people to ignore contradictions in favor of the last thing he said.

So with those two things in mind, it's impossible for a non-Muslim to understand what is true Islam without interpreting the Qu'ran themselves, and I'd sooner have all Muslims disposed of than waste my time piecing together fairy tale bullshit. I do not trust any Muslim interpretation of Islamic law for these reasons.

 

[AnOminous]

Also, in response to people saying "Islam needs a reformation like Christianity had!": you clearly don't know what the Reformation was. It wasn't some nice happy thing thing that made Christianity more liberal. The main products of the Refromation were puritanism and sectarian wars.

Most people don't mean the capital R Reformation, though. Most people don't even know what that was. They're just generally referring to the fact that Christianity used to be a bunch of maniacal expansionist nuts who went around murdering people to force them to convert (kind of like Islamists are doing now), and that it doesn't generally act like that any more.

 

[Sheikh_Speare]

@Sheikh_Speare And according to Muhammad,

1) You are allowed to lie to non-Muslims to make them complacent, and

Incorrect.

This is a very popular claim, but there's no basis for it. People will cite a hadith where the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) said that it's permissible to lie to enemy troops in a warzone if they capture or detain you, or they'll take a verse from the Qur'an that if someone threatens you with death you may lie in order to save your life, but neither of these things gives a blanket permission to lie to non-Muslims "to make them complacent" or anything else. Even jihadists don't think it's permissible to lie about Islam itself (which is why they have a tendency to march around with signs saying "Islam will rule" and shit like that).

People said very similar things about Jews because of the Kol Nidre (All Vows) prayer said on Yom Kippur (which says that all vows made in the next year are null and void), and about Catholics regarding the Jesuit doctrine of mental reservation or equivocation (which is based around saying one thing and meaning something different). In all of these cases there is some point of doctrine typically related to avoiding physical harm, which opponents of that religion twisted to say that everyone in that religion is a liar who can't be trusted. There is no major religion on earth that gives its adherents carte blanche to lie to people.

2) You are to ignore his earlier orders if he contradicts himself later. That's why the Qu'ran is apparently "perfect", but Muhammad instructs people to ignore contradictions in favor of the last thing he said.

Regarding abrogation, it has nothing to do with things that are inherently contradictory. It has to do with the fact that Islamic law was implemented in stages.

At the beginning of Islam, drinking alcohol was permissible. Then, a verse of the Qur'an was revealed making it forbidden to pray while drunk and commanding moderation in drinking. Finally, drinking alcohol was prohibited outright.

It's not about "covering up contradictions." The things being altered or nullified were openly being altered or nullified, because the law was not perceived as a totally static thing, but as something that God could change according to circumstances.

So with those two things in mind, it's impossible for a non-Muslim to understand what is true Islam without interpreting the Qu'ran themselves, and I'd sooner have all Muslims disposed of than waste my time piecing together fairy tale bullshit. I do not trust any Muslim interpretation of Islamic law for these reasons.

It's really weird to assume that a religion with billions of followers is a closely guarded secret.

 

[Randall Fragg]

Incorrect.

This is a very popular claim, but there's no basis for it. People will cite a hadith where the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) said that it's permissible to lie to enemy troops in a warzone if they capture or detain you, or they'll take a verse from the Qur'an that if someone threatens you with death you may lie in order to save your life, but neither of these things gives a blanket permission to lie to non-Muslims "to make them complacent" or anything else. Even jihadists don't think it's permissible to lie about Islam itself (which is why they have a tendency to march around with signs saying "Islam will rule" and shit like that).

People said very similar things about Jews because of the Kol Nidre (All Vows) prayer said on Yom Kippur (which says that all vows made in the next year are null and void), and about Catholics regarding the Jesuit doctrine of mental reservation or equivocation (which is based around saying one thing and meaning something different). In all of these cases there is some point of doctrine typically related to avoiding physical harm, which opponents of that religion twisted to say that everyone in that religion is a liar who can't be trusted. There is no major religion on earth that gives its adherents carte blanche to lie to people.



Regarding abrogation, it has nothing to do with things that are inherently contradictory. It has to do with the fact that Islamic law was implemented in stages.

At the beginning of Islam, drinking alcohol was permissible. Then, a verse of the Qur'an was revealed making it forbidden to pray while drunk and commanding moderation in drinking. Finally, drinking alcohol was prohibited outright.

It's not about "covering up contradictions." The things being altered or nullified were openly being altered or nullified, because the law was not perceived as a totally static thing, but as something that God could change according to circumstances.



It's really weird to assume that a religion with billions of followers is a closely guarded secret.

 

[Null]

It's really weird to assume that a religion with billions of followers is a closely guarded secret.

I'm not calling it a secret, this is all public knowledge. I have no reason to begin trusting Muslims and I don't want them in my country. They've raped and murdered and ruined every western society they came across.

 

[KatsuKitty]

I'm not calling it a secret, this is all public knowledge. I have no reason to begin trusting Muslims and I don't want them in my country. They've raped and murdered and ruined every western society they came across.

Not only that, but as a tranny atheist, I really don't need you people killing me.

You're always welcome in the western world if you're willing to admit our culture is superior and acclimate to it.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

Not only that, but as a tranny atheist, I really don't need you people killing me.

You're always welcome in the western world if you're willing to admit our culture is superior and acclimate to it.

No-one gives a fuck about them admitting anything, just follow the laws of the land and everything is fine.

 

[Ruin]

If Muslims would drop all this supremacy and authoritarian bullshit no one would even give a fuck. Scripture is fundamentally incompatible with the Western world and attempting to implement it in a literal sense leads to bloodshed. Christians understand that why can't you guys?

 

[Tranhuviya]

Perhaps, if Islams didn't rape our womenfolk and destroy our culture, we would be more tolerant and accepting of their religion and culture.

 

[Null]

@Sheikh_Speare Your religion is shit and you can't deal with it so you're attacking me. Get on the Trump Boat to nowhere sandnigger.

Maybe you'd like to talk about Aisha next?

 

[Shadow Fox]

@Null @Sheikh_Speare just kiss already

 

[Vitriol]

there is something wrong when we get 2 reports and veteran users pming asking for a threadban.

I'm locking this thread temporarily so heels can be cooled because quite frankly when trump pics get posted any useful discussion is long past.

Naturally this is just symbolic as Dear Leader can unlock it but hey ho.