Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

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Netizennameless said:
if you have it the best you possibly can and you are still unhappy, you might want to re-evaluate your expectations
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Learning this on my own was the key to setting myself on a path that didn't end with a belt or a bullet. These days it's very, very easy for people to always be caught in a loop of "I need better" or "I should be mad about X" or "Y is terrible" and so on. Doubly so if you're a loner so your only social interactions are through online spheres where such viewpoints are pushed constantly to drive engagement, or brought up constantly due to how much they're pushed elsewhere. You can easily see that a lot of people on this site, men and women both, have either this mentality or a mentality that's based in similarly self-perpetuating negative thought loops.
UtadaWasabi2 said:
How to deal with lingering bitterness, my fellow farmers?
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In broad strokes, you need to choose to let it go. You cannot change reality on a whim, and some things can't be reversed at all. You can, however, exercise sufficient mental mastery to silence non-constructive thought patterns. If your rational brain tells you "Yeah this is okay", but your subconscious is still making you miserable, you need to first make sure you're not just coping with your rational mind. Sometimes you might be lying to yourself because you want to be okay with something, but you really aren't. It's important to be totally honest with yourself because if there is something you're unsatisfied with and can change, denying it won't help.

Once you do that, then you should start making mental habits to change how your subconscious views things. Really, the inside of your mind (the subjective mental experience) is just a series of looping sequences of information that constantly tell you who you are, what you want to do, what you remember, and so on. It's malleable to some degree, and it has been shaped by your life experiences. What you want to do is manually shape it a little bit. For some people, they can do it alone. Some need therapy. Some need religion. Some might need a joint or two. Everyone is different. You need to figure out where you are on that, and get what you need to be able to make the choice to leave bitterness behind. Needing help doesn't mean you're weak or lesser, and once again you need total self-honesty to determine if you're capable of doing it alone, or if you need some kind of assistance.

Peace, mentally speaking, is a choice, just not an easy one sometimes. It can take a while, it's not an overnight thing, but it is worth it.
 
Spud said:
Who's tricking them though?
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the media at large is extremely keen on pushing the idea that casual sex is empowering. Open almost any mainstream news source and scroll through articles on sex, the vast majority of articles you find will be on why having 7 plus partners is a good thing unless you deliberately seek out the most conservative outlet you can find, and I know from experience that only a very small handful of women read conservative content.

On top of that you have women's magazines, television shows, vast numbers of other women who are miserable but feel the need to justify themselves and who end up pushing the narrative forwards as a result.

I didn't want to assume you were baiting for replies.
 
Str8Bustah said:
I didn't want to assume you were baiting for replies.
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The majority of the time I hear the line that women are tricked into having sex it all boils down to how they shouldn't have the choice to pick and choose who they have sex with. It's a genie that's not going to go back into the bottle unless you're going to strip women of all their agency, women like sex just as much as men do they're just better at hiding it.
 
Imagine genuinely believing that people are having casual sex for any reason other than it's fun. Sexual partners can be like a candy bar: it is sometimes wise to show restraint because having too many probably isn't great for you. However, you're eating the candy bar because it tastes good, and you are free to eat as many as you want. Nobody has "tricked" you into eating it.

As for the argument that it's portrayed as "fufilling"... I don't know that having a bunch of partners in and of itself is regularly portrayed as being "fulfilling" or "empowering". I think the media regularly portrays women as being empowered when they can live their lives as they see fit, because it's only a hundred or so years ago they were essentially viewed as property. It's the fact that a woman has freedom to choose to be a whore or a housewife that is portrayed as empowering. Note that I'm speaking of broad cultural norms here. I'm sure you can find countless articles that say it is specifically good to be a whore if you want to waste your time doing so, but that doesn't mean those fit the broader cultural narrative.

Now look, if you want to live in a ditch with another homeless person, licking each other's dirty feet while you beat off and injecting opiates, I would argue you are empowered by being able to choose that lifestyle if you want, - the word empower, after all, means you have the power to do something. While I think empowering people to live their life the way they see fit is a good thing, that doesn't mean I think you necessarily made a healthy choice or one I would agree with or that I won't judge you for it.

It's not empowerment if you expect everyone to choose a lifestyle you agree with, and it'd be extremely hypocritical to argue people have a right to liberty only as long as they choose not to be a whore. That doesn't mean you have to like their lifestyle choices either, only accept that it's not your choice to make for them.

One media narrative that is very real and I do disagree with is the idea that you cannot judge people for their lifestyle choices. I think this is more what you're seeing and you're miscombobulating it as glorifying being a whore in your head. Just as empowerment means you have the power to life as you see fit, empowerment also means I have to power to look down on choices I disagree with.
 
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Spud said:
The majority of the time I hear the line that women are tricked into having sex it all boils down to how they shouldn't have the choice to pick and choose who they have sex with. It's a genie that's not going to go back into the bottle unless you're going to strip women of all their agency, women like sex just as much as men do they're just better at hiding it.
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liking sex =/= thinking casual sex is empowering.
 
Spud said:
Who's tricking them though?
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Teachers, professors, Hollywood, instagram, etc. At a higher level than that, people who have interest in a destabilized society.

Never Scored said:
It's not empowerment if you expect everyone to choose a lifestyle you agree with, and it'd be extremely hypocritical to argue people have a right to liberty only as long as they choose not to be a whore. That doesn't mean you have to like their lifestyle choices either, only accept that it's not your choice to make for them.
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People also desire to murder, and they feel extremely empowered when they do so. It's not good for society or for the individual to act on those impulses without restraint. And as you can clearly see by current day, women can whore around all they like. But nobody is actually empowered by being self-destructive. Feelings are not reality and they often betray us.
 
Netizennameless said:
People also desire to murder, and they feel extremely empowered when they do so.
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I think comparing literally murdering someone to consensual casual sex is one of the most autistic things I've read in my life.
Netizennameless said:
It's not good for society or for the individual to act on those impulses without restraint. And as you can clearly see by current day, women can whore around all they like. But nobody is actually empowered by being self-destructive.
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Did you even read my post? The thing that is empowering is you get to decide what to do with your own life, including self destructive behaviors. There is not a thing in there that argues any of this is good or bad for society or the individual.
 
Never Scored said:
I think comparing literally murdering someone to consensual casual sex is one of the most autistic things I've read in my life.

Murder is a glaring example of how acting on your desires is bad for you and everyone else. But there are other behaviors, like casual sex with many partners that are also bad for you and everyone else. Yes the consequences are lower, but don't pretend like there is no connection between the two.

Did you even read my post?
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Yes, i read the great wall of text. Perhaps you and I have a very different definition of "empowerment." And i'm not addressing the liberty portions of your comment because I agree with them. But there is a dilemma we currently face where irresponsible people have a ton of freedom to destabilize things for everyone else. If people refuse to responsibly use their freedoms, there comes a point where something has to change.
 
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Netizennameless said:
Yes, i read the great wall of text. Perhaps you and I have a very different definition of "empowerment."
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Sure, mine is the one from the dictionary, and yours is based on your feelings.
Netizennameless said:
If people refuse to responsibly use their freedoms, there comes a point where something has to change.
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What change do you feel should be enacted?
 
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Never Scored said:
Sure, mine is the one from the dictionary, and yours is based on your feelings.
I thought I was the most autistic post you've ever read a couple of posts ago?

What change do you feel should be enacted?
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Abortion should be entirely banned except in the cases of a life-threatening medical emergency. Birth control should only be prescribed to married women. There should be a tax on single fathers and mothers (single being unmarried).

Women have always been empowered to have casual sex in this country and have never had to face any consequence other than social ones and the obvious and predictable outcome of pregnancy. I don't really think you have much of an argument other than people shouldn't judge which is ridiculous.


The more "empowered" by your definition that women are, the more unhappy they are. The rates of female suicide and female addiction are increasing. That is not empowerment. Freedom to destroy yourself is not something anyone should be fighting for.
 
Netizennameless said:
Abortion should be entirely banned except in the cases of a life-threatening medical emergency. Birth control should only be prescribed to married women. There should be a tax on single fathers and mothers (single being unmarried).
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So bigger government. Got it. That's worked so well for society in the past. You know, they can't even manage monetary policy, but I've got a good feeling about them managing people's interpersonal relationships.
Netizennameless said:
I don't really think you have much of an argument other than people shouldn't judge which is ridiculous.
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Are you retarded? I literally made the opposite argument:
Never Scored said:
One media narrative that is very real and I do disagree with is the idea that you cannot judge people for their lifestyle choices. I think this is more what you're seeing and you're miscombobulating it as glorifying being a whore in your head. Just as empowerment means you have the power to life as you see fit, empowerment also means I have to power to look down on choices I disagree with.
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Netizennameless said:
The more "empowered" by your definition that women are, the more unhappy they are. The rates of female suicide and female addiction are increasing. That is not empowerment. Freedom to destroy yourself is not something anyone should be fighting for.
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Empowerment =/= happiness. The dictionary definition of empowerment is "the giving or delegation of power or authority; authorization." What you're actually arguing is less empowerment would make people happier, which is fine, if you want to argue it. Just you know, call it what it is.
 
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Netizennameless said:
Teachers, professors, Hollywood, instagram, etc. At a higher level than that, people who have interest in a destabilized society.
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Ahh I get you its the Jews, why didn't you say so? You are overthinking this, women like sex with men they find attractive it's lizard brain stuff. They are not being "influenced" by anything they're making consensual decisions based on their feelings about who they have sex with. Or do you believe that they don't have the agency to do so?
 
Spud said:
Ahh I get you its the Jews, why didn't you say so? You are overthinking this, women like sex with men they find attractive it's lizard brain stuff. They are not being "influenced" by anything they're making consensual decisions based on their feelings about who they have sex with. Or do you believe that they don't have the agency to do so?
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Sex and the City, along with its various copies, taught a generation of women that meaningless sex is a perfectly normal and healthy way to approach relationships in your 20s and 30s. As those same women reach their 40s, they find themselves alone and lonely, unable to maintain a stable relationship, because they don't know how.

Feminism has taught women that men are useless, babies are disposable, and marriage is optional. If a woman is single, it's because there are no good men around; women are perfect as they are and have no reason to better themselves. Accountability is a woman's kryptonite.
 
Never Scored said:
One media narrative that is very real and I do disagree with is the idea that you cannot judge people for their lifestyle choices. I think this is more what you're seeing and you're miscombobulating it as glorifying being a whore in your head. Just as empowerment means you have the power to life as you see fit, empowerment also means I have to power to look down on choices I disagree with.
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I feel like this a thing that people have trouble processing.
 
Spud said:
You are overthinking this, women like sex with men they find attractive it's lizard brain stuff.
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This is attractive for American women:

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I think incels have become the ultimate scapegoat. Social unrest, increasing crime, increasing unemployment, etc? Incels. Someone says something you don't like? Incel. It's the one group you can attack without social consequence. It's like being called virgin+, so not only is being an incel a social failing, not only is it a personal failing, it's also a moral failing. Both news media and entertainment media have been propping up the incel as the "big bad" but I don't think incels are deciding fiscal policy, I don't think incels are jacking up living costs, I don't think incels are bringing in illegal immigrants, I don't think most incels are committing petty crime, or violent crime for that matter.

Some incels are just venting in some corner of the internet where it just dissipates into the ether, I doubt most of them verbalise any of their thoughts out loud and just carry on wageslaving or NEETing. Mass shootings before and after Rodger, were mostly pushback from being actively bullied at school or the workplace (remember postal shootings?), so I don't think there is even a remotely high chance that an incel is a mass shooter in waiting outside of freak occurrences with probably the same chance of occurring as a "regular" mass shooting. I mean, there's no real attempt to reduce the number of mass shootings in the US, primarily because I think all the responsibility is off-loaded onto the individual, so no material or social analysis is made as to why the shooting occurred in the first place. Just "he was a bad seed" and the same amount of insight is given to the incel.

Never Scored said:
One media narrative that is very real and I do disagree with is the idea that you cannot judge people for their lifestyle choices.
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A sort of tangent off this:
I think why the incel "issue" has come under the spotlight in recent years is, for all the amount of vitriol some incels spew, or theories they formulate or people they misattribute their misfortunes to, most have relegated themselves to wageslaving to the bare minimum or NEETing. Because even outside of the lack of a romantic partner, their payslips are probably nowhere near enough to rent a decent flat, let alone outright buy a house and support a family. So why work more than you need to? So that you can prop up a society that at best ignores you and at worst claims you are a danger to said society? I think this has angered certain people who like cheap labour and they're worried that this perspective might spread to other people who aren't necessarily incels but are noticing that their labour is undervalued.
 
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