Culture Wars General - KiA Diet Coke Edition

[SiccDicc]

I would never say that the average Japanese company doesn't care about the western market or listen to their US branches at all, only that you shouldn't take every exceptional thing you see in a localization, let alone twitter account as representative of the core company and its creatives' intentions or philosophies. I think it's demonstrably true that shit gets slipped by be it through lack of oversight or language+cultural barrier leading to careless entrustment of how a brand is handled outside of japan.

Counterpoint: Bandai Namco made a big declaration of inclusivity and changed their logo.

They still have time to pull back and realize they're retarded, but the corporate structure is pretty much tanked.

 

[KokoroKoroki]

Yeah because TWEWY is entirely about Japan aping American urban culture.

You then take the game and bring it back to it's western source where the whole urban youth archetype originated, it's going to look out of place if they acted polite and didn't bother with constant slang and other nightmares that would ruin a direct translation.

The memecentric dialogue seen in TWEWY will appear extremely dated in about a years time, an Among Us reference may seem trendy and relevant now, but it'll age like milk and will just leave people cringing or shaking their heads, it didn't work with Fire Emblem Fates and it won't work with TWEWY.

The localization had zero effect on the overall gameplay

So why did it need to be changed the way it did? If something has such little effect it shouldn't need to be altered in the first place, if anything it affects the character interactions, and their personalities, some of the changes turn the characters into zoomer caricatures that are going to be seen as cringy in about a year or two.

most of the stuff people pointed out or took issue with was subquest text. Which is going to be what most people normally skip reading.

Lol this nigga doesn't read, I can assure you most people have an attention span and actually want to read dialogue if they like the characters regardless of if it's optional, sidequest text can still be interesting to read and can still be used for small tidbits of character interaction.

 

[Marissa Moira]

Counterpoint: Bandai Namco made a big declaration of inclusivity and changed their logo.

They still have time to pull back and realize they're exceptional, but the corporate structure is pretty much tanked.

They changed their branding and put out a PR notice and were already a global company.

It's just bullshit that companies do, but the fact that they're now willing to release the NEVER EVER Tales games is a big plus.

The memecentric dialogue seen in TWEWY will appear extremely dated in about a years time, an Among Us reference may seem trendy and relevant now, but it'll age like milk and will just leave people cringing or shaking their heads, it didn't work with Fire Emblem Fates and it won't work with TWEWY.

So why did it need to be changed the way it did? If something has such little effect it shouldn't need to be altered in the first place, if anything it affects the character interactions, and their personalities, some of the changes turn the characters into zoomer caricatures that are going to be seen as cringy in about a year or two.

Lol this nigga doesn't read, I can assure you most people have an attention span and actually want to read dialogue if they like the characters regardless of if it's optional, sidequest text can still be interesting to read and can still be used for small tidbits of character interaction.

The original game and sequel wasn't much for dialogue it's a pretty basic as is(as it should be). You want to know what happens if you shove a bunch of dialogue in and constantly take away control from the player? Players get annoyed, because games are the ultimate medium for show don't tell. They're interactive, and the more the story is in the foreground and not the background, the worse the game is. It's why skip buttons exist. If I want the embodiment of an exposition dump, I'd read a book. And like an actual book not a light novel or whatever has taken up the mantle of dime store romance books thatw ere intended for housewives and shut ins.

If you want a good example of this in action, watch the Biomutant Episode of Oneyplays

The memes getting dated isn't really an issue either. Guacamelee has a fuckload of old memes and that has zero effect on the experience.

Also the fact that shit like caramelldansen is still going, means that eventually old shit will become new shit again.

And if Among Us memes piss people off that much

Spoiler

maybe it should happen more often

 

[KokoroKoroki]

The original game and sequel wasn't much for dialogue it's a pretty basic as is(as it should be). You want to know what happens if you shove a bunch of dialogue in and constantly take away control from the player? Players get annoyed, because games are the ultimate medium for show don't tell. They're interactive, and the more the story is in the foreground and not the background, the worse the game is. It's why skip buttons exist. If I want the embodiment of an exposition dump, I'd read a book. And like an actual book not a light novel or whatever has taken up the mantle of dime store romance books that were intended for housewives and shut ins.

"If you want a good story, read a book"
"If you want good music, listen to an album"
"If you want good graphics, watch a Pixar movie"

This "If you want X, go do Y" rhetoric is dumb as hell, this may come as a shock to you but most games aren't one trick ponies that rely solely on their gameplay to get by, very few are able to stand on their own two feet without any kind of story or memorable music, they still have to do well in other areas if they want to succeed especially if they're a, you know, narrative driven video game?

And why do you assume you know what players want? You aren't most players, and if the rise of games like Trails and Yakuza are of any indication, quite a large number of people do in fact like reading text and dialogue.

If you want a good example of this in action, watch the Biomutant Episode of Oneyplays
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Tis4fklvN0g
The memes getting dated isn't really an issue either. Guacamelee has a fuckload of old memes and that has zero effect on the experience.

Also the fact that shit like caramelldansen is still going, means that eventually old shit will become new shit again.

And if Among Us memes piss people off that much

Spoiler

maybe it should happen more often

Difference is that the memes in Guacamelee were there from the start and weren't put in by a localisation team to appear quirky or unique and the older memes they included were usually considered iconic pieces of internet history like Nyan Cat and Rage Comics, people still remember them today for a reason, people aren't going to remember Among Us in 10 years or the "Sus imposter" memes it spawned, just a resentful "Oh that thing that was popular for a few months in the pandemic."

 

[Marissa Moira]

"If you want a good story, read a book"
"If you want good music, listen to an album"
"If you want good graphics, watch a Pixar movie"

This "If you want X, go do Y" rhetoric is dumb as hell, this may come as a shock to you but most games aren't one trick ponies that rely solely on their gameplay to get by, very few are able to stand on their own two feet without any kind of story or memorable music, they still have to do well in other areas if they want to succeed especially if they're a, you know, narrative driven video game?

Nope you are entirely wrong.

Narrative driven games don't work without gameplay period. Telltale games proved this in spades with how they put a focus on the narrative specifically. Naughty Dog got shit on for making narrative games without gameplay, fucking Gone Home devs got really shit on for spending a gorillion dollars on Where The Water Tastes like Wine for hiring fucking VA's, getting licensed music, and other bullshit that was not related to designing and including gameplay. You want narrative driven games Square just released Guardians of The Galaxy, it's ass but it has a very strong narrative.

Games do not need narratives, they need objectives, they need rules, they are not story hour at the library(because that's what game journalists want). You think people are wanting elden ring for the lore musings as written by George RR martin? Fuck no, it's open world dark souls and people are looking forward to killing shit and getting their shit pushed in.

The best stories in games do not even begin to compare to actual stories like Hyperion or Rama. Visual Novels certainly don't and they fail in being both good stories and fail at being interactive. Telling stories are not a games strength at all, their strength lies in allowing the player to have freedom and problem solving. Games are about structure primarily, that's why level design, battle system balance, and things relating to how it functions are at the forefront when they're being designed. All things that books, movies, and other forms of passive media don't need.

 

[KokoroKoroki]

Nope you are entirely wrong.

Narrative driven games don't work without gameplay period. Telltale games proved this in spades with how they put a focus on the narrative specifically. Naughty Dog got shit on for making narrative games without gameplay, fucking Gone Home devs got really shit on for spending a gorillion dollars on Where The Water Tastes like Wine for hiring fucking VA's, getting licensed music, and other bullshit that was not related to designing and including gameplay. You want narrative driven games Square just released Guardians of The Galaxy, it's ass but it has a very strong narrative.

Holy shit you cannot be this dense.

Narrative driven games with gameplay exist because I already mentioned them, Trails and Yakuza are just two examples but there are plenty more than just those, just because they have a lot of gameplay doesn't make them less narrative driven, Trails has dialogue that can last up to an hour at times, saying that these games aren't narrative driven is being dishonest. Even then, people liked Telltales The Walking Dead in it's early stages when it was mostly just "Press this button to make this choice" I don't think you actually get any of this at all.

Games do not need narratives, they need objectives, they need rules, they are not story hour at the library(because that's what game journalists want). You think people are wanting elden ring for the lore musings as written by George RR martin? Fuck no, it's open world dark souls and people are looking forward to killing shit and getting their shit pushed in.

People don't want lore in Soulsborne games? Have you been living under a rock? There are several videos discussing the story and lore of just Dark Souls that have hundreds of thousands to millions of views, to say that it's not what people want when it's an integral part of the games world building is drop dead retarded.

That's a hell of a lot of views for people that supposedly don't want that shit, why should it be different for Elden Ring?

The best stories in games do not even begin to compare to actual stories like Hyperion or Rama. Visual Novels certainly don't and they fail in being both good stories and fail at being interactive. Telling stories are not a games strength at all, their strength lies in allowing the player to have freedom and problem solving. Games are about structure primarily, that's why level design, battle system balance, and things relating to how it functions are at the forefront when they're being designed. All things that books, movies, and other forms of passive media don't need.

Whether the stories in games are as good as a piece of literature or not is completely irrelevant because that's not what the discussion is about, it's about whether narrative-driven video games can work which they very obviously can, your opinion on VNs is not the shared opinion of most of the gaming population, if it was then they would have died out as a genre long ago, VNs like Ace Attorney, Danganronpa and Steins;Gate are well respected VNs precisely because people think they tell good stories.

You aren't the godfather of video games who decides how they should be made and what needs to be prioritized, gameplay may be the most important in the long run but neglecting other parts of it will result in failure.

 

[Marissa Moira]

Holy shit you cannot be this dense.

Narrative driven games with gameplay exist because I already mentioned them, Trails and Yakuza are just two examples but there are plenty more than just those, just because they have a lot of gameplay doesn't make them less narrative driven, Trails has dialogue that can last up to an hour at times, saying that these games aren't narrative driven is being dishonest. Even then, people liked Telltales The Walking Dead in it's early stages when it was mostly just "Press this button to make this choice" I don't think you actually get any of this at all.

People don't want lore in Soulsborne games? Have you been living under a rock? There are several videos discussing the story and lore of just Dark Souls that have hundreds of thousands to millions of views, to say that it's not what people want when it's an integral part of the games world building is drop dead exceptional.
View attachment 2710282View attachment 2710280View attachment 2710281
That's a hell of a lot of views for people that supposedly don't want that shit, why should it be different for Elden Ring?

Whether the stories in games are as good as a piece of literature or not is completely irrelevant because that's not what the discussion is about, it's about whether narrative-driven video games can work which they very obviously can, your opinion on VNs is not the shared opinion of most of the gaming population, if it was then they would have died out as a genre long ago, VNs like Ace Attorney, Danganronpa and Steins;Gate are well respected VNs precisely because people think they tell good stories.

You aren't the godfather of video games who decides how they should be made and what needs to be prioritized, gameplay may be the most important in the long run but neglecting other parts of it will result in failure.

Yeah youtube clickbait for Soulsborne games about lore are about as relevant as fanfiction.

Trails and Yakuza have huge huge swaths of the games dedicated to actual multi hours long gameplay sections. Yakuza may stretch it out with minigames, but Like a Dragon had a rock solid implementation with the Millennium Tower as far as having an actual dungeon went. You're going to be spending way more time in those sections than any of the story bits, especially if you're going for 100% completion. Trails has numerous sections in each game intended for grinding, the story parts will make up the minority of your time especially during a nightmare run or higher. Cold Steel 2's final boss on the highest difficulty required a ton of proper team set up and needing to put characters like Laura and Fie in separate groups so you had one character who could tank the boss each phase. Fie is usually an evasion tank which meant maxing out specific quartz so her EVA could be around 100% or higher. Laura can just flat out be given a pure STR build and will do insane amounts of damage in Cold Steel 1 and 2. There's a ton of strategy put into them and that's the meat of the game, the story is just the framework, it's not the main event.

If you're playing stuff primarily for the story you're missing a ton of important actual stuff in the game itself. These games are about strategizing and fortifying any weak spots in your party, because the bosses will wipe the floor with you.

 

[BananaSplit]

You aren't the godfather of video games who decides how they should be made and what needs to be prioritized, gameplay may be the most important in the long run but neglecting other parts of it will result in failure.

Which I don't get his attitude (besides simply labeling it as mere autism) because the more he speaks about video games, the more obvious it gets about him not actually playing them as much as he pretend to be. Wouldn't surprise me if he just base his knowledge off a bunch of youtube gameplay videos

 

[Marissa Moira]

Which I don't get his attitude (besides simply labeling it as mere autism) because the more he speaks about video games, the more obvious it gets about him not actually playing them as much as he pretend to be. Wouldn't surprise me if he just base his knowledge off a bunch of youtube gameplay videos

You're having a hard time coping that you put games that are lower than kusoge on a pedestal.

 

[gaspump]

They changed their branding and put out a PR notice and were already a global company.

It's just bullshit that companies do, but the fact that they're now willing to release the NEVER EVER Tales games is a big plus.

You're already getting dunked on for the other dumb points, but I'll chime in on this one. Doing a full rebrand of a huge corporate entity isn't just a matter of a bunch of suits in a meeting and declaring it so then the next day it's changed. It is a HUGE process, frequently subject to regulatory scrutiny and literally costs millions of dollars to achieve when you're - as you say - a global company.

One example I lived through was working for a company whose name was 4 words and was already referenced by the initialism. The branding change to just the 4 letter initialism, new logo, etc. was in the ballpark of a million dollars circa 2006. And it wasn't a global company either, just... let's say huge in the nation.

 

[Marissa Moira]

You're already getting dunked on for the other dumb points, but I'll chime in on this one. Doing a full rebrand of a huge corporate entity isn't just a matter of a bunch of suits in a meeting and declaring it so then the next day it's changed. It is a HUGE process, frequently subject to regulatory scrutiny and literally costs millions of dollars to achieve when you're - as you say - a global company.

One example I lived through was working for a company whose name was 4 words and was already referenced by the initialism. The branding change to just the 4 letter initialism, new logo, etc. was in the ballpark of a million dollars circa 2006. And it wasn't a global company either, just... let's say huge in the nation.

Yes I'm aware of how costly they are

But point I was making was that they're now wanting to take games that were stuck in a region or defunct console previously and want to give them a global release on modern hardware. They sent out a survey months ago.

The rebranding is going to have a minimal effect, because everything they stated with the new branding introduction, they were already doing for years in various capacities. It's not some earth shattering change of direction.

 

[gaspump]

Yes I'm aware of how costly they are

But point I was making was that they're now wanting to take games that were stuck in a region or defunct console previously and want to give them a global release on modern hardware. They sent out a survey months ago.

The rebranding is going to have a minimal effect, because everything they stated with the new branding introduction, they were already doing for years in various capacities. It's not some earth shattering change of direction.

If they already doing that then why the million+ to rebrand? It's not an earth shattering change, but it's a very money driven signal as to Bamco's "socially responsible" intent. Queue the investor thing about green/social/etc. and I'm kicking myself for not saving it.

 

[Marissa Moira]

If they already doing that then why the million+ to rebrand? It's not an earth shattering change, but it's a very money driven signal as to Bamco's "socially responsible" intent. Queue the investor thing about green/social/etc. and I'm kicking myself for not saving it.

Part of those statements is to put a vague lines that could be read as controversial so people wind up talking about it. It's free advertising.

There's also the possibility that they're reviving some of their publisher stuff for books and movies. They went with something with their new logo to invoke manga. I mean hell Tokyopop is back in a somewhat functional form.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Holy shit you cannot be this dense.

He isn't.

Okay, he is, but not in the way you're saying.

I thought it was clear, but I guess it needs repeating every few pages. Marissa Moira is a Sony fanboy. Sony is leading the charge when it getting woke and going broke. From The Last of Us 2 to "localisation", Sony's actions are indefensible. So his only option is to try and side step it. No content matters. All games should be grey boxes and abstract mechanics. Anything else is frivolous.

 

[Marissa Moira]

He isn't.

Okay, he is, but not in the way you're saying.

I thought it was clear, but I guess it needs repeating every few pages. Marissa Moira is a Sony fanboy.

Can't be I own too many Nintendo games.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

gameplay may be the most important in the long run but neglecting other parts of it will result in failure.

It is amazing that the Sony Faggot is bringing up gameplay when Sony Exclusive Titles are exclusively "Third person action games, with Talent Tree Progression and some Gear"

God of War 4, Spiderman and Ghost of Tsushima were all fantastic games, but you can't deny they are all share a gameplay loop.

 

[Marissa Moira]

It is amazing that the Sony Faggot is bringing up gameplay when Sony Exclusive Titles are exclusively "Third person action games, with Talent Tree Progression and some Gear"

God of War 4, Spiderman and Ghost of Tsushima were all fantastic games, but you can't deny they are all share a gameplay loop.

I really didn't care for any of the uncharteds or TLOUs, but God of War got it right because it took Zelda's formula and reworked it enough without needing gimmickly bullshit like in Skyward Sword.

As time goes on they're going to more than likely become distinct. Ghosts of Tsushima for example has a raid mode that they implemented that's all multiplayer based. Probably by the end of the PS5's life they're going to be as distinct as Mario, Donkey kong Country, Kirby, and Metroid are despite all being 2d platformers. Horizon has something like 3 separate games in development that are not the same as the original.

 

[SiccDicc]

It is amazing that the Sony Faggot is bringing up gameplay when Sony Exclusive Titles are exclusively "Third person action games, with Talent Tree Progression and some Gear"

God of War 4, Spiderman and Ghost of Tsushima were all fantastic games, but you can't deny they are all share a gameplay loop.

I got bored of God of War 4 and I generally like collectathons. I just genuinely could not care for any of the characters. Spider-Man fell into the same problem, I just wanted to watch Mary Jane die -- that iteration is the most obnoxious.

 

[KokoroKoroki]

Yeah youtube clickbait for Soulsborne games about lore are about as relevant as fanfiction.

"People playing Soulsborne games don't give a shit about the lore"
"Okay here are videos with millions of views discussing the games lore"
"Doesn't count because I say so"

Trails and Yakuza have huge huge swaths of the games dedicated to actual multi hours long gameplay sections. Yakuza may stretch it out with minigames, but Like a Dragon had a rock solid implementation with the Millennium Tower as far as having an actual dungeon went. You're going to be spending way more time in those sections than any of the story bits, especially if you're going for 100% completion. Trails has numerous sections in each game intended for grinding, the story parts will make up the minority of your time especially during a nightmare run or higher. Cold Steel 2's final boss on the highest difficulty required a ton of proper team set up and needing to put characters like Laura and Fie in separate groups so you had one character who could tank the boss each phase. Fie is usually an evasion tank which meant maxing out specific quartz so her EVA could be around 100% or higher. Laura can just flat out be given a pure STR build and will do insane amounts of damage in Cold Steel 1 and 2. There's a ton of strategy put into them and that's the meat of the game, the story is just the framework, it's not the main event.

If you're playing stuff primarily for the story you're missing a ton of important actual stuff in the game itself. These games are about strategizing and fortifying any weak spots in your party, because the bosses will wipe the floor with you.

This entire tirade is basically you saying that the games can't be narrative driven because they a lot of depth to their gameplay, ignoring the fact that it is entirely possible for a game to do both at the same time with certain elements taken precedence over the others. My guess is you just don't want to admit that the games you like are narrative driven as if it's a bad thing and you have to justify it to yourself by jumping through a bunch of ridiculous hoops. These games still have a metric tonne of text in them especially in the optional content, trying to act as if this doesn't make them narrative driven is just pure cope.

Is Metal Gear not narrative driven despite the fact it has complex gameplay mechanics and cutscenes that last longer than the gameplay sections?

Please make sure to actually think carefully about what you want to say before typing it out to avoid killing everyone's brain cells even further.

 

[Marissa Moira]

"People playing Soulsborne games don't give a shit about the lore"
"Okay here are videos with millions of views discussing the games lore"
"Doesn't count because I say so"

This entire tirade is basically you saying that the games can't be narrative driven because they a lot of depth to their gameplay, ignoring the fact that it is entirely possible for a game to do both at the same time with certain elements taken precedence over the others. My guess is you just don't want to admit that the games you like are narrative driven as if it's a bad thing and you have to justify it to yourself by jumping through a bunch of ridiculous hoops. These games still have a metric tonne of text in them especially in the optional content, trying to act as if this doesn't make them narrative driven is just pure cope.

Is Metal Gear not narrative driven despite the fact it has complex gameplay mechanics and cutscenes that last longer than the gameplay sections?

Please make sure to actually think carefully about what you want to say before typing it out to avoid killing everyone's brain cells even further.

Well if you're bringing metal gear up, the excessive narrative aspect of it was always a controversial part of the series. Metal gear 4 was especially guilty of this because people didn't feel like they were playing a game most of the time due to how much time the cutscenes had. But they liked the gameplay bits when they happened, so that acted as a bit of a counter balance. At the time this was really the only big game the PS3 had as well, so the "LOL $60 MOVIE" critique also applied. Now death stranding did the same thing, however people were less hot on the gameplay and many just trashed the game due to the mechanical aspects.

Now in the PS5 port of the game Kojima brought back a ton of gameplay elements from metal gear and added new equipment and missions as a response to what people said. The story for the enhanced version really remained the same overall, and even for the base game it was around the same quality of what Kojima has done before when it comes to narrative. This was pretty much showing how story can't really carry a game.

For me personally I've yet to really encounter a narrative driven game that made me want to blast through the gameplay or skip it just to hear the next part of the story. All that stuff is still surface level. The heart of a game is usually the exploration, the item collecting, the combat stuff like that. A Story is basically something that just exists to tie things together/act as window dressing to set a series of objectives or hurdles that you have to accomplish. It's written around the existing gameplay, the gameplay doesn't exist or needs to be justified, because of the story(i.e. how many RPGs don't use in game healing items as actual plot devices). There's also the fact that there's a ton of times the player is punished for just following the story in a game by being locked out of content if they push too far head in a campaign. Some games give warnings but it's not across the board. Hell I had to have a ton of save states for Cold Steel that numbered in the dozens due to the fact that there's a ton of missable items in the games themselves.

Story when being promoted in a game's advertising, is basically something that's used to lower the level of intimidation that a game could have. It makes the masses accept it more without hesitation. Case in point Final Fantasy 7R and it's DLC really put the story first and forward when the game was being advertised. But you get to end game not only does the base game have hard boss fight gauntlets, the DLC does as well and if they're not at the top for the offline series difficulty, they're certainly up there.

Now if they promoted the Yuffie DLC as basically being a few hour long two act campaign with an emphasis on a Boss gauntlet that takes way more time to prep for than it does to finish the whole main quest instead. That wouldn't really be appealing to the majority of people. But to entirely finish the DLC and unlock the Goddamnations for hard mode, it's what you have to do.

I mean if you want to blow through a main campaign to something that's fine, but you're missing more than half a game's actual content the majority of the time. You're not getting the full experience. I mean if we're drawing comparisons to games books and movies, would you leave a movie or a book half done and think you're finished with it?