Can Islam ever be reformed? - *rates optimistic*

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Will there be a positive reformation?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe

  • ALLAHU ACKBAR

Results are only viewable after voting.
I think Islam will reform: history moves in cycles, and as Europe was in the Middle Ages, so the Middle East is now. That doesn't mean we shouldn't accelerate the cycle, however: I think a combination of education reforms, the firm removal of all terrorist kebabs, and the shattering of the throne of Al Saud would let us skip the Crusades and get to the Muslim Martin Luther more quickly.
 
Maybe, but it would be centuries out in a time when we don't really have the luxury of waiting.
 
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The Protestant Reformation didn't come on a feather bed, a ton of long bloody wars sprung from it, and with how violent Islam is (LOL RELIGION OF PEACE) there would no doubt be mass killings perhaps bordering on genocide. The question then becomes, would such violence be worth it? Sure they'd just be doing it to each other, but on the other hand, life is life, is it not?
 
As long as there are extremist Muslims, it doesn't really matter if there are billions of them or if it's a small minority, because those willing to reform and adjust will still be afraid to speak out and do so openly because it might cost them their head. Even if the majority is potentially chill, the number of them willing to martyr themselves for change is very small.

Back in the day when Christianity tried to reform itself, many of those reformers found an early grave or died in horrible ways. They got shunned by society, beheaded, burned to death, tortured... it took a lot of balls, to call for reform and to address issues within the faith. It's not the Middle Ages anymore, not officially anyway but Muslim reformers face the same medieval conditions... even today in the year 1438.
 
Nacho Man Randy Salsa said:
Sure they'd just be doing it to each other, but on the other hand, life is life, is it not?
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It's obviously terrible, but we in the West can't magically fix their way of thinking. I think it's fair to say "sort your shit yourselves" at this point.

teh forist speret said:
Islam can only be reformed if Israel stops land grabbing Palestine and bombing the shit out of villages when Palestine even raises a hand against them.
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I'm no islamofag but the way Israel was created was kind of horseshit, the allied powers basically drew lines on a map with their crayons and said "lol jews live here now, deal with it non-jews" all because everyone felt bad for the poor little religion that nearly got exterminated. Did they expect the regional people who gave zero fucks about WWII would peacefully uproot themselves? Apparently.

It seems like a good example of what results when you tell yourself you're a hero for standing by the little guy, but really you're just looking for points for helping the popular little guy and steamroll other little guys that won't win you PR. No different from SJWs who defend the middle east but also wear Nike shoes manufactured by child slave labor in Vietnam.

Awaiting a slew of autistic and islamic content ratings for saying I don't 100% love Israel...
 
Alec Benson Leary said:
Did they expect the regional people who gave zero fucks about WWII would peacefully uproot themselves? Apparently.
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A lot of them didn't, though, and still live in Israel. At least 20% of Israel's population is Arab.

And a lot of so-called "Palestinians" aren't people with any historical connection to the region who have moved there fairly recently.
 
Nacho Man Randy Salsa said:
The Protestant Reformation didn't come on a feather bed, a ton of long bloody wars sprung from it, and with how violent Islam is (LOL RELIGION OF PEACE) there would no doubt be mass killings perhaps bordering on genocide. The question then becomes, would such violence be worth it? Sure they'd just be doing it to each other, but on the other hand, life is life, is it not?
Click to expand...
I've seen people argue that ISIS is the Protestant iteration of Islam. Granted, I'm not sure how well that holds up considering:
1. Arabic is some extent already sacred to Islamic thought in a way Spoken Arimaic-to-Written Greek-to-Latin Gospels never were.
2. Sola Scriptura is already baked into it.
 
Corypheus said:
I've seen people argue that ISIS is the Protestant iteration of Islam. Granted, I'm not sure how well that holds up considering:
1. Arabic is some extent already sacred to Islamic thought in a way Spoken Arimaic-to-Written Greek-to-Latin Gospels never were.
2. Sola Scriptura is already baked into it.
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If that is the case, then frankly we're all screwed.
 
Islam:
No Self Awareness
No real concern about their own people or others dying as long as they can get to another country and screw it up.
Hates Women
Hates Gays
Above normal incidence of inbreeding
Above normal incidence for pedophilia and raping anything with a pulse
I'd say, the West has a better chance at reforming Dylan Roof.
 
Mariposa Electrique said:
Islam:
No Self Awareness
No real concern about their own people or others dying as long as they can get to another country and screw it up.
Hates Women
Hates Gays
Above normal incidence of inbreeding
Above normal incidence for pedophilia and raping anything with a pulse
I'd say, the West has a better chance at reforming Dylan Roof.
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People hating gays is totally a top priority, my lord.

lol null deleted those angry faggots with daddy issues
 
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Corypheus said:
I've seen people argue that ISIS is the Protestant iteration of Islam. Granted, I'm not sure how well that holds up considering:
1. Arabic is some extent already sacred to Islamic thought in a way Spoken Arimaic-to-Written Greek-to-Latin Gospels never were.
2. Sola Scriptura is already baked into it.
Click to expand...

I think what further obfuscates it is that it is not an uncommon position in the Catholic and Orthodox world (the vast majority of Earth's Christians) that the Protestant Reformation was a wholly negative thing, which irreparably damaged the faith. Some would call it the opposite of progress. I would. What good came of it were things the Church would have done internally anyway, if somewhat later. Most of what came of it was violence and ignorance. In that sense it is "ISIS-like."

At the same time, comparing ISIS to the Protestants is a wholly unfair and unfavorable comparison overall. While both were violent and extremist reform movements, Martin Luther had good intentions (if very, very, poor execution.) Jean Calvin and Zwingli...tried their best, at least? I don't know, they may have deserved death. Regardless, ISIS has no such things in mind. No great ideals at the end of its "ends justify the means" scenario. It is not ignorance, it is purely evil.

Another issue is the idea of reform itself. The Christian world, like the Muslim world, doesn't really meet it on those terms. You can't "change" things, you have to prove that whatever you are trying to do was actually what Jesus/Muhammed/etc. wanted all along. Obviously, that can only happen so many times before religious authorities start to shut you out on principle. So whatever Islam is going to do will have to happen hard and fast once it finally comes.

People who aren't religious in the traditional sense have a hard time grasping this. Religion, at least revelatory religions, don't change to meet social needs or expectations if they're healthy. People practice them because they think whatever it teaches are true. Attempting to change it in most cases isn't like tweaking an ideology or changing your mind on media, it's an attack on the truths about the cosmos itself. I've had to patiently explain this over and over again. People go to mass because they believe not because it serves some "convenient purpose" in their lives.
 
Pikimon said:
This is a much more civilized discussion than I expected.

Let's change that.

@Internet War Criminal
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You can't reform something when said reform requires you to root out its axioms. Then it becomes something else entirely different.

Islam is founded on Mohammed's teachings, and the idea that he was the most perfect man to emulate. Those who live closest to these ideals and the path Mohammed showed for his followers to emulate are the likes of ISIS, different Wahhabist and Salafist groups and their ilk.

This is not a situation where the church deviated from its own teachings and needs to be refocused on what matters, where the cool laid back Muslims who drink, listen to western music and oppose terrorism and ISIS are the Islamic historical norm. Those people are the deviation from Islam and not the norm.

To reform Islam is to remake Islam into something entirely different, period.
 
Internet War Criminal said:
You can't reform something when said reform requires you to root out its axioms. Then it becomes something else entirely different.

Islam is founded on Mohammed's teachings, and the idea that he was the most perfect man to emulate. Those who live closest to these ideals and the path Mohammed showed for his followers to emulate are the likes of ISIS, different Wahhabist and Salafist groups and their ilk.

This is not a situation where the church deviated from its own teachings and needs to be refocused on what matters, where the cool laid back Muslims who drink, listen to western music and oppose terrorism and ISIS are the Islamic historical norm. Those people are the deviation from Islam and not the norm.

To reform Islam is to remake Islam into something entirely different, period.
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Well damn, son. :o

I don't know as much about Islam as a religion as I should but I always thought Mohammed was just a prophet and a man, not their dimestore version of Jesus.
 
Scratch This Nut said:
I don't know as much about Islam as a religion as I should but I always thought Mohammed was just a prophet and a man, not their dimestore version of Jesus.
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I think the difference between respect and worship for these kinds of mythicized figures is academic. When everything you do in your life is based off of your slavish interpretation of what some guy said 1400 years ago, then he is your god in effect, whether you get mad when that's pointed out or not. Hell, I've got a lot of respect for the founding fathers of America and the constitution they wrote but there are people who take it to the point where they seem to think this group of intelligent men were infallible; those types are basically guilty of the same thing.
 
In short, from probably the only Muslim on this thread, I will just save you all the suffering and horror from reading All of Islamic Jurisprudence to say that Islam will not "reform" . The closest thing to reformation is called [and yes, it exists] ijtihad .
" Ijtihad (Arabic: اجتهاد‎ ijtihād, lit. effort, physical or mental, expended in a particular activity)[1] is an Islamic legal term referring to independent reasoning[2] or the thorough exertion of a jurist's mental faculty in finding a solution to a legal question.[1] It is contrasted with taqlid (imitation, conformity to legal precedent).[2][3] According to classical Sunni theory, ijtihad requires expertise in the Arabic language, theology, revealed texts, and principles of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh),[2] and is not employed where authentic and authoritative texts (Qur'an and Hadith) are considered unambiguous with regard to the question, or where there is an existing scholarly consensus (ijma).[1] Ijtihad is considered to be a religious duty for those qualified to perform it.[2] An Islamic scholar who is qualified to perform ijtihad is called a mujtahid.[1] " ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad
So, in short. There is nothing to "reform" about Islam. The only thing, that I and You will both agree on, is the lack of knowledge on Islamic law and ethics.
Yes, Islam needs a unified polity . A 'Caliphal' government to 'Enjoin Good and Forbid Evil' [ https://islamqa.info/en/11403 ]. Once that is accomplished, wordily affairs will be much more focused on. And by 'Wordily' , I mean Scientific, Cultural and Economical Benefits.
No, Islam will not:
- Change its 'Hudud' laws [ CL: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86 Re: https://abuaminaelias.com/application-of-hudud-punishments-in-sharia-law/ ]
- Change its Sunnah
- Change its Sharia

To top everything off, I give a quote:
"There are people (the Muslims) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another ... if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state; it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects."
British Prime Minister Henry Bannerman, 1906
2

PS: Here are some great articles to read if interested.
 

Attachments

guluboy17 said:
In short, from probably the only Muslim on this thread, I will just save you all the suffering and horror from reading All of Islamic Jurisprudence to say that Islam will not "reform" . The closest thing to reformation is called [and yes, it exists] ijtihad .
" Ijtihad (Arabic: اجتهاد‎ ijtihād, lit. effort, physical or mental, expended in a particular activity)[1] is an Islamic legal term referring to independent reasoning[2] or the thorough exertion of a jurist's mental faculty in finding a solution to a legal question.[1] It is contrasted with taqlid (imitation, conformity to legal precedent).[2][3] According to classical Sunni theory, ijtihad requires expertise in the Arabic language, theology, revealed texts, and principles of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh),[2] and is not employed where authentic and authoritative texts (Qur'an and Hadith) are considered unambiguous with regard to the question, or where there is an existing scholarly consensus (ijma).[1] Ijtihad is considered to be a religious duty for those qualified to perform it.[2] An Islamic scholar who is qualified to perform ijtihad is called a mujtahid.[1] " ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad
So, in short. There is nothing to "reform" about Islam. The only thing, that I and You will both agree on, is the lack of knowledge on Islamic law and ethics.
Yes, Islam needs a unified polity . A 'Caliphal' government to 'Enjoin Good and Forbid Evil' [ https://islamqa.info/en/11403 ]. Once that is accomplished, wordily affairs will be much more focused on. And by 'Wordily' , I mean Scientific, Cultural and Economical Benefits.
No, Islam will not:
- Change its 'Hudud' laws [ CL: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86 Re: https://abuaminaelias.com/application-of-hudud-punishments-in-sharia-law/ ]
- Change its Sunnah
- Change its Sharia

To top everything off, I give a quote:
"There are people (the Muslims) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another ... if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state; it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects."
British Prime Minister Henry Bannerman, 1906
2

PS: Here are some great articles to read if interested.
Click to expand...

Oh boy, we have a live one.
It's late and I'm drunk, so I'm just going to point out that:
1. Every religion throughout history has believed itself to be the perfect one. Those that refused to change with the times stagnated and died.
2. You lie when you say that Wahabi shall give the world scientific benefits, when over and over again imams and scholars decry all technological or cultural advancement since the time of Muhammad.
3. You lie when you talk of cultural benefits when over and over again all culture is spat upon by your imams; to make music is a sin, to paint is a sin, to sculpt is a sin, to tell a story is a sin. It seems that having a culture is a sin.
4. The fact that you think Israel exists to stop some grand unification of the Middle East shows you are a fool misled by the lies of a serpent, blind to both past and present.
5. You shall win no converts here.
 
guluboy17 said:
In short, from probably the only Muslim on this thread, I will just save you all the suffering and horror from reading All of Islamic Jurisprudence to say that Islam will not "reform" . The closest thing to reformation is called [and yes, it exists] ijtihad .
Click to expand...

If you actually are right about that, we need to kill you all while we have all the nuclear weapons and you are a bunch of goatfucking savages.

I think you're wrong. I think in a couple centuries Islam will be as normie as other religions.
 
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