Can Islam ever be reformed? - *rates optimistic*

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Will there be a positive reformation?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe

  • ALLAHU ACKBAR


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Johnny Bravo

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Sep 9, 2013
The Islamophile thread was getting off-topic but I wanted to talk about this. There seem to be fundamental differences between Islam and other religions that make a reformation difficult or even impossible, yet many Muslims find a way to reconcile their beliefs with the modern world.
 
I believe it can and will be.

It won't happen as fast as we would like it to, and more extremist movements, ironically probably including reformist violence, will occur, but modern Islam in its current form only has three options: victory (nigh impossible), destruction, or adaptation. While all faiths, including my own, like to believe that they will keep to their deepest convictions no matter how insane or difficult it might be, the majority will generally reject this and choose adaptation over destruction once victory is ruled out. The fanatics will burn themselves out, the crippling poverty of most Muslim regions will eventually be seen for it what it is: economic poverty and not the oppression of western powers, and so on. That said, this could take literally one hundred years or a thousand for all we know.

The key elements will be money and education. Always are. People keep arguing "democracy" but that wasn't necessary for the reformation in Europe (which was right about a few things) and it won't be for Islam. Shi'a Islam will change faster because it is hierarchical and able to restructure itself from the top down to survive. Indeed, reformation, heterorthodoxy, mysticism, symbolism, and change favor the minority Shiites. The Nizaris are proof of this.
 
Isn't what Wahhabism is?

Salafism/Wahhabism are the pretty much the reformation of Sunni Islam.
 
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Do note that I'm looking at this from the historical perspective...

@Ntwadumela could talk about the religious perspective and correct me if I've muddled up my history. Many of the works that talk about this history are translated from Arabic and I don't speak Arabic...

I would argue that the main problem (or benefit, depending on how you look at it) is that Islam is a very decentralized religion, there's no spiritual governing body. There's no diocese or bishiphoric structure in Islam. Mosques can preach what they want, and there is no formal religious body that makes the rules. (Historically, it's been the Caliph as the nominal religious head). The split for the Sunni/Shia is over who should have succeeded Mohammad as Caliph, the Sunnis say that Mohammad never named his successor and later, the faithful convened to give the title of Caliph to the Prophet's father in law, while the Shias say that Mohammad named his successor, his cousin, as the nominal religious head. It started as a political schism and later grew into a religious one.

Historically since the Shia were a religious minority, under a very hostile regime they had to figure out a way to survive. This led to the concept of Taqiya, where a Shi'ite can falsely confess their faith in order to better serve the religious community, sabotage the enemy and to survive. The Assassins(yes those assassins) were very fond of this tactic and used it to great effect to assassinate Conrad of Monteferat and to convince Saladin to stop sieging their stronghold

There is also a sect of Islam called the Ibadis. They're mainly located in Oman. If I'm reading this translated article right, they believe that only God can annoit a Caliph.

Oftentimes, this meant that the direction the religion took was often up to the person or family who held the title of Caliph. The Abbasid Caliphate who took over the nominal title of Caliph after a war with the Umayyad Caliphate, were kind of nuts, and if you have an afternoon, the stories of political intrigue and court politics in the Abbasid empire makes for a fascinating read. I'm talking sons being strangled by the mother of another son. That kind of stuff. The Abbasids later collapsed thanks to this court intrigue and lost large portions of their empire to the Shia Caliph under the Fatamids in Egypt.

The Fatamids were later succeeded by the Mamluks, (now, we are back to Sunni rulers) a term meaning slave soldier, but later grew to designate a social class very similar to the European Knight.


The Ottomans later overran Mamluk Egypt. After that, came the Ottoman Caliphs as the nominal religious head. They interpreted Sharia law to mean "we can make religious rules in our empire for Muslims, non Muslims will be subject to the religious rules laid out by their own religious heads" This system was called the Millet system, and it was an insanely effective form of early religious pluralism.

Unfortunately, near the end of the empire, they did marginalize their religious minorities, although it isn't known whether this was an expression of religious dominance or Turkish dominance, as religion in the Ottoman Empire was generally seen as a very "personal matter."


Finally, we come to Saudi Arabia. Their interpretation of Islam is called Wahabbi. "Conservative" doesn't do this ideology justice. It's fundamentally reactionary and hostile to not only Shias and non Muslims. It's hostile to more liberal interpretations of the religion as well.

The Saudis under Wahabbism have bulldozed significant places in the Prophet's life, and also have bulldozed Ottoman structures in an effort to change the historical narrative. They invest a staggering amount of cash in funding mosques to replace Sunni Islam with their own harsh interpretation of the religion. This is especially problematic because Saudi Arabia controls both Mecca AND Medina, and as such, they can exert a large amount of indirect pressure on the religion.

Unlike the ways the Ottomans interpreted Sharia, there are no room for the Dhimini(people of the book) in a Wahabbist society. Everybody who is a citizen of Saudi Arabia, MUST be a Muslim.

I wouldn't say that the religion needs a total reform, but we need to find a way to work with and promote "Liberal" clerics within the religion,

Start by not letting Saudi Arabia fund mosques in your country...
 
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It absolutely can happen. It will take time, resources, and a hell of a lot more willing to say it like it is, though.

Based Imam should give everyone some hope.
 
Do note that I'm looking at this from the historical perspective...

@Ntwadumela could talk about the religious perspective and correct me if I've muddled up my history. Many of the works that talk about this history are translated from Arabic and I don't speak Arabic...

I would argue that the main problem (or benefit, depending on how you look at it) is that Islam is a very decentralized religion, there's no spiritual governing body. There's no diocese or bishiphoric structure in Islam. Mosques can preach what they want, and there is no formal religious body that makes the rules. (Historically, it's been the Caliph as the nominal religious head). The split for the Sunni/Shia is over who should have succeeded Mohammad as Caliph, the Sunnis say that Mohammad never named his successor and later, the faithful convened to give the title of Caliph to the Prophet's father in law, while the Shias say that Mohammad named his successor, his cousin, as the nominal religious head. It started as a political schism and later grew into a religious one.

Historically since the Shia were a religious minority, under a very hostile regime they had to figure out a way to survive. This led to the concept of Taqiya, where a Shi'ite can falsely confess their faith in order to better serve the religious community, sabotage the enemy and to survive. The Assassins(yes those assassins) were very fond of this tactic and used it to great effect to assassinate Conrad of Monteferat and to convince Saladin to stop sieging their stronghold

There is also a sect of Islam called the Ibadis. They're mainly located in Oman. If I'm reading this translated article right, they believe that only God can annoit a Caliph.

Oftentimes, this meant that the direction the religion took was often up to the person or family who held the title of Caliph. The Abbasid Caliphate who took over the nominal title of Caliph after a war with the Umayyad Caliphate, were kind of nuts, and if you have an afternoon, the stories of political intrigue and court politics in the Abbasid empire makes for a fascinating read. I'm talking sons being strangled by the mother of another son. That kind of stuff. The Abbasids later collapsed thanks to this court intrigue and lost large portions of their empire to the Shia Caliph under the Fatamids in Egypt.

The Fatamids were later succeeded by the Mamluks, (now, we are back to Sunni rulers) a term meaning slave soldier, but later grew to designate a social class very similar to the European Knight.


The Ottomans later overran Mamluk Egypt. After that, came the Ottoman Caliphs as the nominal religious head. They interpreted Sharia law to mean "we can make religious rules in our empire for Muslims, non Muslims will be subject to the religious rules laid out by their own religious heads" This system was called the Millet system, and it was an insanely effective form of early religious pluralism.

Unfortunately, near the end of the empire, they did marginalize their religious minorities, although it isn't known whether this was an expression of religious dominance or Turkish dominance, as religion in the Ottoman Empire was generally seen as a very "personal matter."


Finally, we come to Saudi Arabia. Their interpretation of Islam is called Wahabbi. "Conservative" doesn't do this ideology justice. It's fundamentally reactionary and hostile to not only Shias and non Muslims. It's hostile to more liberal interpretations of the religion as well.

The Saudis under Wahabbism have bulldozed significant places in the Prophet's life, and also have bulldozed Ottoman structures in an effort to change the historical narrative. They invest a staggering amount of cash in funding mosques to replace Sunni Islam with their own harsh interpretation of the religion. This is especially problematic because Saudi Arabia controls both Mecca AND Medina, and as such, they can exert a large amount of indirect pressure on the religion.

Unlike the ways the Ottomans interpreted Sharia, there are no room for the Dhimini(people of the book) in a Wahabbist society. Everybody who is a citizen of Saudi Arabia, MUST be a Muslim.

I wouldn't say that the religion needs a total reform, but we need to find a way to work with and promote "Liberal" clerics within the religion,

Start by not letting Saudi Arabia fund mosques in your country...
I would like to add in that Wahhabism sprung up as a result of a deal between the Al Saud family and the Ikhwan, former bedouins that became warriors serving the Saudi royal family. The Ikhwan believed in what is now considered Wahhabism and have been given housing in exchange for fighting under Al Saud. They have instigated conflict with neighboring fledgling nations such as Kuwait for example, fighting both the Battles of Hamdh and Jahra during the Kuwait-Nejd war. Though they had excellent manpower and tactics they were ultimately driven away by the British forces stationed there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhwan
 
Islam is a religion.

Religions inevitably go through these phases.

They inevitably end up more or less okay.

So Islam will eventually reform. The problem is that might be a couple hundred years out, and the real problem is we don't have that much time to play with in a reality where countries where Islam is in charge have nukes.

So we might have to nuke the entire Islamic world at some point.
 
At times you had Christian fanatics (the Crusades, the Protestants vs. Catholics bullshit, etc) and that eventually settled down. Part of what happened there is a gradual change to a more secular society. I mean, that's what happened in Turkey, with Mustafa Kemal. For all the guy's faults, he knew that a secular government was an important part to ending a lot of violence and conflict.
I mean, you're still going to have people who think THEIR way is the only true way, but when you give people the right to worship as they please, there's less of a threat. I have no doubt there are Christians out there who, given the chance, would act like these jagoffs. But of course, they don't have the means or the support. So I think that'll eventually be the case with Islam. (Unfortunately, we keep propping up the Saudis, because, oil)

TL,DR: theocracies are bad, mmmkay?
 
No. Islam must be destroyed. It is a political agenda that desires unlimited power, money, and perverted sex through global land acquisition and enslavement of all non-muslims. BLU-82 Daisy Cutters must be dropped on Mecca and Medina until they are leveled, all muslims must be deported from Judeo-Christian civilization to their respective countries and banned from travel, Catholic missionaries must be sent to aggressively convert all muslims to Catholicism, and any exiting vehicles from said countries by air, land, or sea must be destroyed—except for returning deportation vehicles.

Of the countries that are converted to Catholicism, they must be further banned from travel for five generations. Of the countries that aggressively refuse, they must be leveled.

It must be removed from existence, just as the Nazi Party was. No exceptions.
How would you go about doing this?
 
No. Islam must be destroyed. It is a political agenda that desires unlimited power, money, and perverted sex through global land acquisition and enslavement of all non-muslims. BLU-82 Daisy Cutters must be dropped on Mecca and Medina until they are leveled, all muslims must be deported from Judeo-Christian civilization to their respective countries and banned from travel, Catholic missionaries must be sent to aggressively convert all muslims to Catholicism, and any exiting vehicles from said countries by air, land, or sea must be destroyed—except for returning deportation vehicles.

Of the countries that are converted to Catholicism, they must be further banned from travel for five generations. Of the countries that aggressively refuse, they must be leveled.

It must be removed from existence, just as the Nazi Party was. No exceptions.

How do you plan on keeping a multi-generational operation like this operating after a hundred or so years? Or from creating several generations of religious violence as your plan seems to imply?
 
It is impossible unless and until Judeo-Christian values are reinstituted into the Former Republic of the United States of America—bar supernatural intervention. If it were in God's Will, I would support a counterrevolutionary measure to overthrow our current kleptocratic oligarchy. There are two non-violent options left to spark this counterrevolution. One is a federal income tax strike. Nobody except myself and a very small minority of other citizens have done this, and nobody will do it. Western civilization is too effete and sterile—too anesthetized to take a monetary loss for the greater Glory of God. The last non-violent option is a presidential election strike. This requires no monetary loss on the part of the counterrevolutionaries, but it requires citizens to stop deceiving themselves. The presidential election is theatre for the masses. It is possible to spark the civil war that is required to repossess our country through a low voter turnout. But understand that a less than 5% turnout would be required to break the delusion, and even then, it is possible that it might not have the efficacy of a federal income tax strike. These measures would require a supernatural miracle of divinity on par with the First Coming of Christ. If they were to occur, our country and civilization would see a seating of Christ as our King once more. It would be glorious beyond measure.

After the subsequent civil war and repossession of our country, the extermination of islam would not only be wholly possible, but actively worked by all God-fearing citizens. It would be one of the main priorities along with public execution of the former oligarchs for their crimes against humanity and aggressive, hopeful proselytism of all citizens to Catholicism. All of this, of course, presupposes a supernatural miracle of nearly unprecedented magnitude. But the resource are there; the heart is not.

I could elaborate a bit further, but I do not expect such a miracle to occur. So, my methods would be purely hypothetical.
Lol. Religious pluralism is enshrined here in the USA. It is a good thing. You honestly think places such as the Deep South would support this? Never mind the non-religious such as myself... never mind the non-denominational Christians... never mind the people who don't want to live under Judeo-Christian values...


Funnily enough, there is an Islamic country that does the exact same thing as your hypothetical... it's called Saudi Arabia, only the Christian values are replaced with reactionary Islam...
 
It is impossible unless and until Judeo-Christian values are reinstituted into the Former Republic of the United States of America—bar supernatural intervention. If it were in God's Will, I would support a counterrevolutionary measure to overthrow our current kleptocratic oligarchy. There are two non-violent options left to spark this counterrevolution. One is a federal income tax strike. Nobody except myself and a very small minority of other citizens have done this, and nobody will do it. Western civilization is too effete and sterile—too anesthetized to take a monetary loss for the greater Glory of God. The last non-violent option is a presidential election strike. This requires no monetary loss on the part of the counterrevolutionaries, but it requires citizens to stop deceiving themselves. The presidential election is theatre for the masses. It is possible to spark the civil war that is required to repossess our country through a low voter turnout. But understand that a less than 5% turnout would be required to break the delusion, and even then, it is possible that it might not have the efficacy of a federal income tax strike. These measures would require a supernatural miracle of divinity on par with the First Coming of Christ. If they were to occur, our country and civilization would see a seating of Christ as our King once more. It would be glorious beyond measure.

After the subsequent civil war and repossession of our country, the extermination of islam would not only be wholly possible, but actively worked by all God-fearing citizens. It would be one of the main priorities along with public execution of the former oligarchs for their crimes against humanity and aggressive, hopeful proselytism of all citizens to Catholicism. All of this, of course, presupposes a supernatural miracle of nearly unprecedented magnitude. But the resources are there; the heart is not.

I could elaborate a bit further, but I do not expect such a miracle to occur. So, my methods would be purely hypothetical.

Go back to your Supernatural thread. We don't need anymore backwards Alex Jones-tier autism spreading throughout the site. Especially when it's as interesting as watching paint dry.
 
I think it can as most religions do.

The question we should be asking is whether there is time for Islam to reform given the very fast paced world we now live in.
 
No. Islam must be destroyed. It is a political agenda that desires unlimited power, money, and perverted sex through global land acquisition and enslavement of all non-muslims. BLU-82 Daisy Cutters must be dropped on Mecca and Medina until they are leveled
In other words
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@1864897514651

Forgive me Father for I have sinned via double-posting, but why do you want a Sedevacantist theocracy ruling over the United States instead of supporting already Sedevacantist political positions such as Legitimism (examples: Jacobitism and Carlism)?

Sedevacantism is built on the firm ground of legitimacy, overthrowing the government of the United States and installing a theocracy isn't built on legitimacy (the whole reason Sedevacantism exists is because people think the 1958 election had outside influence and Vatican II goes against the traditions of the Church, in other words it's not legitimate).
 
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