💤 Inactive Nick Bate / Nickalaus B. Stoutzenberger (Thread 2: THE RECKONING)

[Ravenor]

Yeah, he knows what he did is wrong, he just can't understand WHY it's wrong. He doesn't seem to be able to consider other people's feelings, he only can grasp what HE wants. Hence his stalking of Anna despite her being very clear about not wanting anything to do with him, and his abuse of Amber. The fact he tried to cover it up later by saying Amber was the one who started it just shows he knew that other people would not approve of what he'd done.

I would say it goes deeper than that, it's not that he can't or wont consider other people feelings, He has a massive cognitive disconnect going on with his reasoning skill's in general in the functioning part of his evaluation there was the bit about the fire, he said he would call his aunt not the fire service (first an obvious choice) or attempt to put it out himself, and he can't see why Child Porn would be illegal, parts of his brain just can't join the dot's together I am surprised he was able to function at all.

There is a lot of screws loose in that noggin, and I wonder what a real psychiatrist would make of him.

 

[Bassomatic]

With out trying to side track on the morals of it, I very much doubt he'll see one in PA's custody in more than welness checks etc. Granted, I don't think a shrink deserves to have to deal with Sick Nick.

 

[Ravenor]

With out trying to side track on the morals of it, I very much doubt he'll see one in PA's custody in more than welness checks etc. Granted, I don't think a shrink deserves to have to deal with Sick Nick.

Oh I know, this thread has been a real eye opener to me about how mental health is treated in American prisons, It was mostly just idle speculation on my part.

 

[DrJonesHat]

With out trying to side track on the morals of it, I very much doubt he'll see one in PA's custody in more than welness checks etc. Granted, I don't think a shrink deserves to have to deal with Sick Nick.

Since he's probably going to be spending the next several decades as a guest of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, he might volunteer for a research study into sex offenders if one comes his way. But for treatment? No. Personality Disorders are generally not treatable, and neither is pedophila. Of course, that's assuming he ever gets out. Even if he survives his sentence, he'll probably end up civilly committed for the rest of his life. But he won't really get any treatment unless there's a massive shift in how the US handles the mentally ill.

 

[4Macie]

Legalfag stepping in to add something about the idea that Nate's mom and aunt could be in trouble too.

I highly doubt it. But....

Now I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but there are many cases where a mom is charged with endangering a child because she stayed with her abusive spouse instead of getting away. I don't like this particular law because of batter wives already have shit to deal with besides this... BUT in this case, if they find clear an convincing evidence that Amber's mom and aunt knew sexual abuse was happening and they did nothing and let it continue.... They could be held accountable for endangering a child. Of course, the state wouldn't touch that case unless they had absolute proof they knew and did nothing. They aren't going to dig much right now as they have no real reason too.

 

[Yawning Bulbasaur]

After what he did to Amber and @Ancani, he deserves to be mistreated severely. He's no longer a human being.

He's part Cherokee so (according to Pocahontas) he was barely even human to begin with

 

[Ravenor]

They aren't going to dig much right now as they have no real reason too.

If Amber comes out and says "I told my Mum about it an she didn't believe me", or better still Nick blurts it out in court etc would that be enough to automatically trigger such a investigation?

 

[LordCustos3]

He might have seen Shawshank though, the crawl through the pipe of poop might make it worth the attempt for him.

We need to tip off the warden.

His crawling through the poop-pipe isn't an escape attempt. Just a hobby.

Anyhow, enough flippancy on my part. Let's get serious again.
Two questions:
1) What kind of plea bargain do you think is being cooked up behind the scenes?
In my completely uniformed opinion, I'd wager that the best case scenario is "7-12 years in an neuro-psych unit, followed by living in a group home under state supervision for life" and worst case scenario is "We'll drop it from 40 years to 25, but you'll be in SCI Greene as Sandusky's bunkmate....and he's gone without any somethin' somethin' for a while now."
2) Is Nick delusional enough to refuse a plea-bargain, even one that is relatively in his favor?

 

[Ravenor]

Two questions:
1) What kind of plea bargain do you think is being cooked up behind the scenes?
In my completely uniformed opinion, I'd wager that the best case scenario is "7-12 years in an neuro-psych unit, followed by living in a group home under state supervision for life" and worst case scenario is "We'll drop it from 40 years to 25, but you'll be in SCI Greene as Sandusky's bunkmate....and he's gone without any somethin' somethin' for a while now."
2) Is Nick delusional enough to refuse a plea-bargain, even one that is relatively in his favor?

1) It wouldn't be that generous, Child molestation crimes are treated prity harshly.
2) I don't know, he can't understand what he did is wrong on any level so he might just fight it, however he is also a coward an might just take any offer to get the prosecutor to leave him alone. He did tweet that he said his aunt told him it would be mandatory counceling at one point an he believed her an thought that wouldn't be to bad so make of that what you will.

 

[ScottB]

Reading all the psych theories in this thread about Nick (especially page 36), I can't help but feel increasingly skeptical that Nick will physically survive, never mind serve, a full prison term.

Fact is, gruesome and evil Nick may be on the outside, deep down he really is a sensitive, blissful fellow. I'm no lawfag and I've never met any inmates save for a high school field trip I'd been on one time, but from what I know prison truly is not a place for someone of his caliber. So from here I can see two good possibilities: Nick will either conform to the prison culture in silence, the suppressed anxiety gradually building up in him until his mind further rots solely to his own detriment if not to the effect of others, or over the course of his stay, even in many years' time, Nick will orchestrate a plan to take his own life and will succeed in doing so (I've read about some pretty creative methods of prison suicide people have devised over the years; if you're devoted and cunning enough, you will succeed in time).

Anything, of course, could happen between those possible outcomes that alters his direction in life, but frankly, the prospect of seeing a 60 something-year-old Nick Stoutzenberger walk out of prison, just seems incredibly dim to me right now.

 

[AnOminous]

His crawling through the poop-pipe isn't an escape attempt. Just a hobby.

Anyhow, enough flippancy on my part. Let's get serious again.
Two questions:
1) What kind of plea bargain do you think is being cooked up behind the scenes?

Not sure. They might not even bother making one, waiting for the PD to come crawling.

In my completely uniformed opinion, I'd wager that the best case scenario is "7-12 years in an neuro-psych unit, followed by living in a group home under state supervision for life" and worst case scenario is "We'll drop it from 40 years to 25, but you'll be in SCI Greene as Sandusky's bunkmate....and he's gone without any somethin' somethin' for a while now."
2) Is Nick delusional enough to refuse a plea-bargain, even one that is relatively in his favor?

Usually when you have a plea offer, it's to drop the most serious charge in favor of lesser charges. A fairly standard offer would be to drop the first degree felony (3123) in favor of one or more of the lesser felonies (3126). While sentencing is also sometimes part of a plea bargain, I don't see why the prosecutor would bother. It'd likely be a take it or leave it offer, with leaving it meaning the prosecutor goes after him with an unholy vengeance.

So I don't see why the sentencing would be anywhere short of the maximum on the lesser felony, and the prosecutor might even be a hardass and argue for them to be consecutive rather than concurrent.

I think a fairly reasonable outcome would be 7 years on one of the lesser felonies, what would amount to permanent registration as a sex offender with all that entails, as well as it being very likely he's also civilly committed after he serves his sentence, possibly forever. He has no future. Not that he had much of one anyway.

 

[Mollybdenum]

So from here I can see two good possibilities: Nick will either conform to the prison culture in silence, the suppressed anxiety gradually building up in him until his mind further rots solely to his own detriment if not to the effect of others, or over the course of his stay, even in many years' time, Nick will orchestrate a plan to take his own life and will succeed in doing so (I've read about some pretty creative methods of prison suicide people have devised over the years; if you're devoted and cunning enough, you will succeed in time).

He's a child molester, a special breed of fucking offal, even convicted murderers look down on. I honestly don't think he'll last long and when he goes, it won't be up to him and it will be painful the entire time he is dying.

 

[AnOminous]

He's a child molester, a special breed of fucking offal, even convicted murderers look down on. I honestly don't think he'll last long and when he goes, it won't be up to him and it will be painful the entire time he is dying.

He's so obviously a target that he'll be segregated. Worse scumbags than he have survived. For instance, the very dude responsible for Megan's Law is still alive. There are plenty of guys who would gladly finish him if they got the chance, and they haven't had it yet.

 

[Bassomatic]

Nick will not be in one of the lighter prisons, and depending where he'll be in a securer housing for protected inmates that has some "freedom" till he causes a ruckus (or is victim to one) or he'll be sent to a full lock down isolation unit. Really depends where he's sent.

 

[pbls]

I'm going to answer questions a little late. Sorry guys.

@pbls what was it that Nick did that made you finally cut him off? I used to follow your interactions on twitter and I remember multiple times that he would proposition you for sex and make flash movies of him grabbing your breasts. I can't imagine what he did would have been the last straw.

It wasn't really one specific thing, so much as a bunch of little things. And keep in mind too, this was over the course of about seven years... I guess the main thing was that I noticed his mental health decrease so much and so quickly that I figured it was best to cut things off. I put a lot of effort in to, as ScottB put it, "normalizing" him and pushing his focus away from Anna, and it just wasn't balancing out.

Jessa, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but are you familiar at all with Thom/Heather's involvement and what's been said about them?

I'd prefer not to speak for Heather, because I haven't spoken to her for a while and I'm sure she wants to stay out of this. I do appreciate the pun, though.

And as an aside, I'm skeptical of Nick's diagnoses of schizotypal disorder (atleast that alone)

He was diagnosed with that as well as Autism Spectrum Disorder/Aspergers. I am a million percent sure he has a whole bunch of other things, but none that can be pinpointed over thirty days... which is the evaluation process that they used. If we want a more detailed prognosis we would need something way more intensive, which maybe he can have access to in jail?

 

[Functional Animal]

I'm pretty sure he was specifically told he wasn't autistic.

 

[Ancani]

I'm pretty sure he was specifically told he wasn't autistic.

That's how I remember it as well. Jessa, did he say he was diagnosed, or was it just something he claimed to have?

 

[RWS Watcher]

What was Nick's favorite topics of discussion with you (I can already take a guess, but it doesn't hurt to ask)? How often did he bring up the subject of pedophilia?

I'm curious about how consumed he was with his perverted fantasies in private before and after committing his crime.

 

[pbls]

It said in his psych diagnosis, unless there was a follow-up?

 

[Euthynnus Dominae]

I think the 129 IQ is probably accurate, but only as a curiosity. Nick has shown sporadic signs of above-average intellect - when he feels he needs to communicate fluently he can do so, he has a fairly wide vocabulary, etc etc. His problem isn't that he's stupid in the classic sense so much as that he's just detached from reality due to mental illness. He doesn't imagine things like semen raining from the sky because he's too unintelligent to understand the basics of how weather works, he imagines it because he's psychotic.

Intelligence test sperging ahead...

Spoiler

I give, interpret, and write up these tests all the time. I looked over Nick's report a while back and don't remember exact details, but I can say that PRI indicates Perceptual Reasoning Index, which is considered to be, and attempts to be, a more "pure" measure of intelligence without getting language or culture in the way. Obviously, intelligence tests tend to be biased towards the dominant culture, since they are so language-heavy and tend to ask questions regarding what is the "right" thing to do in certain situations; how two concepts are alike; and the definitions of words or asking for general facts. The PRI is the nonverbal part of the testing, emphasizing problem-solving and detecting patterns in matrices and pictures. So, Nick's average (above-average?) score in PRI shows that he can solve problems and use nonverbal reasoning to a degree that's similar or a little better than his same-aged peers. That's about it, really. Interpreting intelligence tests tends to be more useful in a school or work setting, honestly.

And as an aside, I'm skeptical of Nick's diagnoses of schizotypal disorder (atleast that alone)- I'm not that familiar with it, but my impression is that, while rarer than even schizophrenia, it's less severe and seems to manifest as a higher-functioning form. I have myself known of one diagnosed schizotypal online (and that was the first time I'd ever heard of it), have seen their activities/behaviors and even briefly interacted with them, and while they were certainly strange, not very bright, degenerate, dysfunctional, and basically nuts, they were really pretty benign on the crazy scale, and honestly pitiable.* And they of course were nowhere near as bad as Nick, they certainly weren't at all dangerous or within miles as disgusting as he is. They seemed to fit the bill of that alone far, far more than Nick. I don't doubt Nick has schizoid traits, but he specifically seems to have a constellation of traits/disorders, and more than anything seems like some kind of unique psychopath.

Schizotypal personality disorder sperging ahead...

Spoiler

So "schizotypal disorder" is actually a personality disorder and, while it sounds similar to schizophrenia, it's definitely different. Personality disorders are considered enduring and stable as well as resistant to treatment. While schizophrenia is considered a severe mental illness, it is not considered a personality disorder, and it can be successfully managed with aggressive therapy, medication, and family support. According to the DSM 5, schizotypal personality disorder is "a pattern of acute discomfort in close relationships, cognitive or perceptual distortions, and eccentricities of behavior." People with this disorder tend to have magical thinking, delusions, and be very eccentric or "odd." Fits Nick pretty well, I'd say. However, psychotic symptoms (a disconnect from reality) are not present in this personality disorder, but they are present in schizophrenia. So, I'd say that schizophrenia has a pretty clear "starting point" where the symptoms begin to manifest, has delusions and psychosis, is pretty severe, and can be treated if all the conditions are right. Schizotypal personality disorder typically manifests at an early age, is shown in all environments and is very pervasive, and doesn't have the typical psychosis markers of schizophrenia.

Finally, my thoughts on Nick's intelligence/diagnosis...

Spoiler

So, I think Nick's high intelligence test scores can't really be applied to his life due to his severe mental illness. He clearly was struggling with adaptive skills (keeping a clean place, practicing hygiene, holding down a job, etc) and had some odd and eccentric thinking. So, okay, great, he can look at matrices on a flip-book while taking an intelligence test and figure out the relationship between the pictures and determine which picture goes next in the sequence, and he showed that he's better at that than most other people his age. But, his abilities in that nonverbal, problem-solving area don't really apply to his real life because he wasn't actually using those abilities in everyday life. If he didn't have so many adaptive skills deficits and such severe mental illness, he may have been able to be pretty successful in a job that required problem-solving skills and quick thinking. However, he just wasn't doing anything like that. I hope that makes sense - in my mind, he is "above average" when measured using a specific subset of abilities, but cannot meaningfully apply that intelligence in any actual life areas. In his life, he was very clearly functioning at a level far below average. I also think he has other issues than just the schizotypal personality, though he certainly isn't intellectually disabled as the test results show.

Also, he never seemed psychotic (or disconnected from reality), just delusional, hence the schizotypal diagnosis. Typically, people need to be truly psychotic and unable to distinguish right from wrong if they want to actually try to utilize an insanity plea. As we all know, it said right in his psychological report that he knew molesting children was wrong. If I recall, the report also said that he was a danger and should be kept away from children precisely because he knew it was wrong, but wanted to do it anyway.

Also, I find him to be the most horrifying and am very glad to see that he was finally arrested for what he did.