Debate @The Projects about various political stuff

[The Projects]

It is a great take down of communism. I think brave new world is the best. As Huxley was himself a technocrat in think-tanks trying to create the world he wrote about. Orwell was right in 1984 about the post-modernist 2+2=5 there is no truth.

I agree, but I feel both of them were right in different areas, or different countries rather. Some places are Brave New World, others are 1984/Animal Farm. Either way, they're both worth reading.

Kafka was the real winner hahaha

 

[The Projects]

I don't know if you're high or this is a troll, but you need to get a clue, dude.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit tired of discussing this, so I'm going to make this last one short, I don't disagree with you that our nation has been routinely mismanaged for several decades, but I do not believe Trump's actions are having any tangible effect on any of these problems, and are not addressing systemic problems that have underpinned our Republic for a long time.

The other thing is that I have led my own life and have my own takeaways about the state of the world today based on the life I've lived, and what I have observed. I am no more an expert on this subject than you are, and I respect your opinion, despite very strongly disagreeing.

That being said, I don't want to keep cluttering this thread with my own personal opinions, so if anybody would like to discuss it further with me, please feel free to DM me!

 

[Stupor Mario]

but I do not believe Trump's actions are having any tangible effect on any of these problems, and are not addressing systemic problems that have underpinned our Republic for a long time.

You seem pretty civil, but you gotta be kidding me that you are seeing no tangible effect. Have you checked the price of gas lately? The price of eggs? Did you see the victims of the hurricane in North Carolina completely abandoned by the Biden administration living in wreckage? Did you see Trump push to give them actual aid and to clean up the area? The proofs are there if you bother to look. Systematic problems are shadowy abstractions. I'm talking about real things happening now.

 

[The Projects]

One of the things I feel gets overlooked about 1984 in discussion is the Party's control of language. Of course, the total decimation of a language has basically never been done on the level as portrayed in the book, but I feel like it's more of an exaggerated take on how movements and parties and governments control the narrative, and the discussion surrounding the narrative. It's not an estate tax, it's a death tax, they're not criminals, they're disadvantaged urban poor, we aren't discriminating, it's a meritocracy, and they weren't good enough.

Though really, with all the talk of Huxley and Orwell, I am a bigger fan of A Clockwork Orange.

 

[harmy.kook]

Beginning a pseudo-military operation to round up migrants isn't going to fix birthright citizenship

Which he started doing from day one

Trump already tried to revoke birthright citizenship it was unsurprisingly blocked by some liberal faggot judge. It is current scheduled to be decided by the Supreme Court.

Or

or migrants overstaying their visas

Something the Administration publicly acknowledged and has started punishing

or businesses employing illegals

You mean like they started doing the last few months?

But why am I surprised the account that got here in April hasn't apparently paid attention.

Or more specifically, by your own words, you don't like any of the actions required to get this stuff done.

the ICE Raids are whatever on their own, but they're conducting it rather inhumanely and incompetently, and I'm not fond of a paramilitary force rolling around on the streets, even if I'm not at risk.

You say you want this stuff done, but yet you don't like any of the actions required to actually get it done in our current political climate?

Same old Political Cuckold song n' dance of "I want things to happen, but I don't want to be mean".

 

[PrincessHomura]

10 years ago, the average American hated all politicians, now a large chunk of them downright worship one.

You must've spent the last 10 years wildly drunk, because 10 years ago Obama was president and he was most definitely not hated (even though he probably should've been).

 

[harmy.kook]

You must've spent the last 10 years wildly drunk, because 10 years ago Obama was president and he was most definitely not hated (even though he probably should've been).

No, they have.

Something that strikes me everytime is that ideologically, I find myself relatively in line with a lot of leftists (Go ahead and crucify me, don't care) on a lot of things, my main exceptions being their culture war policies, and neither side ends up representing my opinions on those.

This person is basically a "muh both sides" Leftist that supposedly wants things done, and yet doesn't actually want the necessary actions to do it done taken.

Claims that they don't understand why "both sides don't try to understand each other", yet is conveniently quiet about what happened to Charlie.
You know....

When the Left killed him for daring to challenge their beliefs.

 

[babyDunk]

Sorry, didn't think it had to be said really, Trump. He's a charismatic figure with a giant number of supporters, many of whom downright worship him, and take his every word unquestioningly. Some of his supporters in no exaggeration, ascribe divine meaning to his presidency and movement.
10 years ago, the average American hated all politicians, now a large chunk of them downright worship one.

Ever heard of Obama? I do not disagree with you entirely, but if you choose to ignore Obama worship while calling out Orange divinity, then you are a subhuman.

ICE Raids are whatever on their own, but they're conducting it rather inhumanely and incompetently, and I'm not fond of a paramilitary force rolling around on the streets, even if I'm not at risk.

What would be the "humane" way to raid a place? Because more often than not, "humane" in this context means drumf should grant mass amnesty.Is that what you are proposing?

I personally think he is going to easy on the illegals he should be arresting them and making them slaves. He should offer monetary incentive for random citizens to round them up and use them as slaves similar to bounty hunters.

Got a /pol/ nigga over here.

 

[The Projects]

This person is basically a "muh both sides" Leftist that supposedly wants things done, and yet doesn't actually want the necessary actions to do it done taken.

Claims that they don't understand why "both sides don't try to understand each other", yet is conveniently quiet about what happened to Charlie.
You know....

First things first, erroneous, paraphrased quote. The section of the post you put in quotation marks? One, you left it out of the quoted segment, and two I was speaking exclusively about leftists refusing to understand why right wingers support Trump and the right wing as a whole.

Something that strikes me everytime is that ideologically, I find myself relatively in line with a lot of leftists (Go ahead and crucify me, don't care) on a lot of things, my main exceptions being their culture war policies, and neither side ends up representing my opinions on those. The trouble is that despite me agreeing with a lot of what they say, so many of them are just reprehensible people, and even the ones that aren't take up this smug attitude, rabid dismissal of anything they don't like, unwillingness to understand why the other side believes what it does, while simultaneously envisioning themselves as gentle understanding humanists. They hate capitalism, but they'll whore themselves out for money, that and many of them already come from money.

Curious place to end your quote, no?
Also a bit bold of you to assume I support a man being shot dead in front of his wife and children, especially given that I specifically mentioned civil violence as an issue I am concerned about, as I stated here

I am against mass migration, be it documented or illegal. In particular, visa workers and illegal immigrants contribute to wage depreciation amongst native born citizens. This along with usury, erosion of family and societal values, and domestic/civil violence

Secondly, I am not a leftist, I don't identify myself with leftism because communism is a non-functioning ideology for Godless heatherns. As well as I don't recognize the left-right binary as a political concept, only as by-words useful in the context of American politics. I agree with certain leftist policies, basically just labor and tax reforms and welfare for the poors, that third one has to be implemented correctly, but it has proven effective in other countries.

Which he started doing from day one

Or

Something the Administration publicly acknowledged and has started punishing

You mean like they started doing the last few months?

But why am I surprised the account that got here in April hasn't apparently paid attention.

Or more specifically, by your own words, you don't like any of the actions required to get this stuff done.

You say you want this stuff done, but yet you don't like any of the actions required to actually get it done in our current political climate?

Same old Political Cuckold song n' dance of "I want things to happen, but I don't want to be mean".

Third, I'm willing to admit, I was a little overzealous saying he's done nothing on these issues, and so I concede on that. However, I do have a problem with the way it is being conducted. I do not like the way that the Supreme Court and Executive Orders are being used to exact policy goals. The Supreme Court is intended to be a non-biased, apolitical court, and as it stands Trump has the Supreme Court packed with his own loyalists, now before you scream, "What about the Democrats?!", I do not like the politicization of the Supreme Court to any degree, and if the Democrats had done the same thing, I would be voicing the same concerns.

It all reeks of an administration trying its hardest to find loopholes to avoid Congress, despite Trump having a majority in both chambers. Now, I will take a charitable approach here and say that the administration is trying to sidestep Congress because the deadlock will prevent anything meaningful from being achieved. However, I think this is setting a bad precedent, our Republic is supposed to be balanced, the President shouldn't be able to just have the Supreme Court decide on an issue he doesn't have the votes to achieve. If he can just use an Executive Order, wait for someone to try and throw it out, then take it to the Supreme Court to decide whether it's okay or not, then Congress will never even have been able to touch it.

Now you might think that this is fine, he's only doing what's necessary to protect his nation from a mob of illegal migrants! But now imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, it was Democrats who had the court packed with supporters, using this power to, I don't know, redistribute land, redistribute wealth, do reparations; using eminent domain and a new taxation scheme, would you have a problem with this? Would you say they're using loopholes? Would you say they're doing something illegal? Unprecedented?

This is why I consider Trump to be acting undemocratically, because he's using political process loopholes to enact his policies. Even if he's doing something I agree with, or a plurality of people agree with, or a majority of people agree with, it's only a matter of time before he, or someone else, uses it to do something that nobody wants. It is investing excessive power into the executive branch to do whatever it wants.
The Supreme Court's only job should be to apolitically decide whether a bill is legal under the Constitution, it should not be a biased institution, and it should not be wielded as a club by the Executive to achieve political goals, red or blue, it doesn't matter. All power to legislate should be invested solely in Congress, an elected body representing the nation, not a single President.

In my ideal world, this immigration stuff, as well as all political action, would be done through Congress with the elected majority the Republicans already possess, and preferably without as much paramilitary agents, but eh, you win some you lose some. Eisenhower did it. But currently our Senate is deadlocked, because with the use of the filibuster, and the silent filibuster, all bills require the support of a 3/5ths majority, 60/100 Senators.
I already talked about it here:

For congress, one word, filibuster. Congress can't get anything done even when a party has a majority in both houses. Why? Because for all intents and purposes, a majority of 60 senators is required to pass anything in the Senate. It requires a 3/5ths majority to end discussion and proceed with legislation, so if the other side has at least 41 senators all in agreement, they can just keep talking forever, or instead of doing that, they can just threaten to do a filibuster, and the other side will usually back down because it's a waste of time. This is called a silent filibuster.
This is part of why executive orders and Supreme Court decisions have become some of the driving forces in changing the status quo. Why pass new legislation when you can just have the Supreme Court throw out the old rulings to get yourself a favorable decision, or just have the president decree it? (And hope that the courts don't throw it out)

So my ideal Presidential candidate would be one focused on political reform, the reason why this filibuster stuff keeps happening is because there's a Senate rule that allows Senators to speak for as long as they'd like. Now these rules aren't actually written into the Constitution, they can be amended whenever. Stumbling block there is that it requires a 2/3rds majority.
My ideal Presidential candidate drops all this culture war bullshit, runs on political reform, and ideally gets enough support to get a 2/3rds majority, or works with the other party to amend the rules. You might think this is wishful thinking, but all it really requires is for everyone to calm the fuck down and bring ourselves together. For our Republic to continue functioning and avoid all these political shenanigans, finally get shit done via legislation, we have to work together instead of fighting. After we fix this problem, then we can have at it just like before, but I'd ideally like to have a new Constitutional Congress so we can all get back on the same page.


Thanks for reading! Sorry for my posts being all over the place, I was sort of just responding to people in a non-cohesive way.
And please don't call me a leftist ever again, or I might get mad at the internet!

 

[harmy.kook]

But now imagine if the shoe was on the other foot

So I was right to pin you as a "muh both sides" cuck.

You're sitting here trying to lecture us about this hypothetical "but what if the shoe was on the other foot", but it doesn't mean anything because we already experienced that.
The country got terrorized and held hostage by activists, illegals, and criminals.
All while Democrats used the State/several NGOs to back said vagrants.
Trying to care more for illegals and criminals while Americans suffered.

You trying to claim what he's doing is undemocratic, when he was voted in with the electoral and the popular votes on taking care of these things.
The People want this done.

Hell..The People want even more done, but yet people like you exist wanting to stall because "it isn't the ideal handling that you would prefer".

AKA trying to play along with the Democrat-favored system.
Trying to act like "Neither side is actually doing what Americans want them to do".

You're trying to whine about Trump "not doing it democratically" and doing it through executive orders.

Yet in reality, it's working around the Democrats attempts to stall/interfere with caring for the American people

Even the current shutdown is because Democrats want to spend hundreds of billions on taking care of illegals over American citizens.

Fuck off you 4cuck Rapefugee

 

[Samuel Fuller]

You ain't strictly wrong here, but I watched this vid, he actually spends very little of it addressing people who are literally calling for civil war, which he stated was very few people, and I think that we all agree on this. Instead, he mostly rails against how these people end up affecting society at large, how they slowly but surely shift the conversation to a much more violent, divided place. His examples given were that people often describe their political opposition in the same way they'd describe enemies at war, dehumanizing them, describing their opponents as doing things that only an enemy would do.
And this I agree with, I think the tone has gotten too separationist, "We can't co-exist, they won't change, we won't change", over these last 10 years.

We've devolved into almost a holy war.

"We don't need to change, listen to anyone else or examine our beliefs, we are ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY!" is the most destructive belief I have ever seen in politics.

 

[Ranine Avatar]

I do not like the way that the Supreme Court and Executive Orders are being used to exact policy goals. The Supreme Court is intended to be a non-biased, apolitical court, and as it stands Trump has the Supreme Court packed with his own loyalists, now before you scream, "What about the Democrats?!", I do not like the politicization of the Supreme Court to any degree, and if the Democrats had done the same thing, I would be voicing the same concerns.

You're either disingenuous or retarded. The Democrats Supreme Court'ed their policies into existence by judicial fiat for more than half a century.

What’s more, the current Supreme Court isn't creating new policies de novo, but fixing existing judicial overreach.

tl;dr:

 

[Samuel Fuller]

I am against mass migration, be it documented or illegal. In particular, visa workers and illegal immigrants contribute to wage depreciation amongst native born citizens. This along with usury, erosion of family and societal values, and domestic/civil violence would actually be my primary concern if I did not find the Trump administration to be openly anti-democratic. That, and they're not really doing anything about any of these problems. Beginning a pseudo-military operation to round up migrants isn't going to fix birthright citizenship or migrants overstaying their visas or businesses employing illegals, they're going to sweep up a few hundred thousand, and call it a day.

The idiocy of your posts is staggering.

You want all the problems Trump is working on solving solved, but you don't want Trump to be the one to solve them, and you don't want the solutions that are working or that have been proposed and will likely work because?

Your politics are as incoherent as a vagrant on a fentanyl and Drano bender.

When someone is solving the problems you feel need solving, they deserve your support, not insipid nitpicking.

 

[The Projects]

So I was right to pin you as a "muh both sides" cuck.

You're sitting here trying to lecture us about this hypothetical "but what if the shoe was on the other foot", but it doesn't mean anything because we already experienced that.
The country got terrorized and held hostage by activists, illegals, and criminals.
All while Democrats used the State/several NGOs to back said vagrants.
Trying to care more for illegals and criminals while Americans suffered.

You trying to claim what he's doing is undemocratic, when he was voted in with the electoral and the popular votes on taking care of these things.
The People want this done.

Hell..The People want even more done, but yet people like you exist wanting to stall because "it isn't the ideal handling that you would prefer".

AKA trying to play along with the Democrat-favored system.
Trying to act like "Neither side is actually doing what Americans want them to do".

You're trying to whine about Trump "not doing it democratically" and doing it through executive orders.

Yet in reality, it's working around the Democrats attempts to stall/interfere with caring for the American people

Even the current shutdown is because Democrats want to spend hundreds of billions on taking care of illegals over American citizens.

Fuck off you 4cuck Rapefugee

You seem like you'd have supported Sulla.

 

[The Projects]

The idiocy of your posts is staggering.

You want all the problems Trump is working on solving solved, but you don't want Trump to be the one to solve them, and you don't want the solutions that are working or that have been proposed and will likely work because?

Your politics are as incoherent as a vagrant on a fentanyl and Drano bender.

When someone is solving the problems you feel need solving, they deserve your support, not insipid nitpicking.

No, I have a problem with the method by which the problems are being solved because the way it's being solved will lead to a concentration of power in the hands of fewer people.

The ends do not justify the means in my eyes.

 

[GameratePTSD]

No, I have a problem with the method by which the problems are being solved because the way it's being solved will lead to a concentration of power in the hands of fewer people.

The ends do not justify the means in my eyes.

How would you go about deportations?

 

[The Projects]

How would you go about deportations?

The deportations aren't really the issue here, I already conceded on that in fact. Though, ideally I'd like to see it conducted a little more competently, been a lot of instances of them barking up the wrong tree, and I also don't particularly like paramilitary orgs trolling the streets trying to round up people. But again, that's neither here nor there, and it has precedent, Eisenhower did it.

My issue lies with the heavy reliance on Executive Orders, and the loyalist-packed Supreme Court that will practically rubber-stamp everything Trump does. It proves a model where the Executive is able to rule by edict and have it backed up legally. This hasn't just got to do with deportations, and it's really not my primary concern, as I do not want large amounts of illegal aliens in our country. Mass deportations have already been conducted before, my only real objection is that they be conducted humanely and competently.

Seems like everyone is very concerned about what I think on the immigration issue, when I'm not even against deportations, though admittedly, I haven't done a very good job of explaining myself, so I'm at fault quite a bit.

 

[The Evil Midnight Bomber]

You seem like you'd have supported Sulla.

Who else would you support, fucking Marius? Sulla died peacefully in his mansion after he won, executed all his enemies, reformed the Republic and ended his dictatorship as promised. He was clearly the best option.

 

[The Projects]

Who else would you support, fucking Marius? Sulla died peacefully in his mansion after he won, executed all his enemies, reformed the Republic and ended his dictatorship as promised. He was clearly the best option.

Sulla didn't fix shit, he set the stage for the collapse of the Republic. He started a civil war, declared himself dictator (a role intended only for desperate catastrophic scenarios), and proved that if you have a big enough army you can just ignore the rules. S to Spit.
That being said, there weren't really any good choices.

 

[The Secret Sauce]

The deportations aren't really the issue here, I already conceded on that in fact. Though, ideally I'd like to see it conducted a little more competently, been a lot of instances of them barking up the wrong tree, and I also don't particularly like paramilitary orgs trolling the streets trying to round up people.

To me, it seems like you're stuck in the 60's. Not the real 60's, but an idealized version of them where everyone got along and politics was just respectful debates about tax codes and infrastructure. When there are umpteen million hostile foreigners infesting the country and ruining our children's futures, we need paramilitary orgs rounding them up and getting them the fuck outta here. The boomers are dying off quickly, and the Dems have made it apparent that they will import millions of illegals every time they gain power for the foreseeable future. If we don't fix the immigration problem quickly and decisively, the country will be utterly unrecognizable by the time you're old. If the American people didn't think drastic action was necessary to wright the ship, Donald Trump would never have sniffed the presidency.
You accused someone of supporting Sulla earlier, but the ugly truth is that the Dems are closer to Alaric than Marius.