Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

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I thought we were puppeteering frisk, whereas chara was just a disembodied entity that narrates the game for us.
Hell if I know. Toby says you should use your own name for Chara implying, yes YOU are Chara but then Genocide route completely throws that out the window too, so you tell me what the fuck is going on because I sure didn't get it.
 
I don't believe Toby had the same kind of fourth wall breaking plot ideas in mind for Undertale like he does for Deltarune. Whenever Undertale gets meta it only ever does so in ways that make sense from a purely in-universe perspective, but use language that immediately draws to mind things like game mechanics or your relation to the game as the player. There's meant to be a sort of parallel between be your the player and Chara, but it's never made exactly what influence Chara has, if any, over Frisk, and the story for the most part treats the player's powers over the game as being a result of Frisk's determination.

Chara of course appears and takes control of things in the Genocide Route, but Chara also talks like they were only influenced into being that way due to the player/Frisk's actions, if I remembering correctly, they're dialouge is written in a way that sounds like it could equally be directed at the player out-of-universe or to Frisk if you want to keep things entirely in-universe. I think the only explicit fourth-wall break was Flowey talking to the player when you boot up the game after the Pacifict ending, where he mentions that Frisk is also happy now too and will be returned like everyone else should the player reset their save file. And that particular conversion is the most outside the bounds of the game, being as you're before the main menu and haven't started or loaded anything yet.
 
but it's never made exactly what influence Chara has, if any, over Frisk, and the story for the most part treats the player's powers over the game as being a result of Frisk's determination
the best way i can put it is similar to how running shine puts lolo's powers over klonoa into perspective: chara is a battery for frisk's body, it makes frisk move the way gasoline drives a car. thats if we believe that chara is inside frisk or whatever the theory is
 
Chara is the gamer instinct
That's right, the implication at the end of the game that Chara makes is that they are the feeling of mindless progress that so many video game players grind for. The endless increasing of numbers for no other sake than the increase itself. If you've ever played a mindless dungeon crawler and leveled up way beyond what was needed to progress, simply because you enjoyed the feeling of winning battles and seeing your level increase, that was Chara, The embodiment of the player's desire for power, stats, and destruction (EXP, LV, HP)

Toby didn't handle this great in undertale, (though I still think the meta-narrative attempt is cool, I just think they should have been two separate characters) trying to combine Chara the in-universe character, with Chara the demon of mindless video game progression, left some misunderstandings between the two.

The implication Chara the demon is making when you disagree with them and they say "Since when were you the one in control here", is that you are driven by your lustful need to increase your stats, to the point that you would destroy the entire world, the game itself, if it meant you would gain a level, even if you outwardly deny it.

Thus why when you agree with them they say "you are a great partner", and "let's destroy this world and move on to the next", the meta-narrative implication here is that you, the player, will host Chara in whatever video game you play next, repeating the cycle of attempting to kill every monster, exhaust every option, gain as many levels as possible, etc.

The "destroy the world (game)" thing is also somewhat symbolic of what happens to the relationship between the player and the game when they interact with a video game in this manner; because when you interact with a video game in a completionist manner, when you uncover every secret, gain every level, see every little detail, the game itself ceases to function as an illusion, it becomes nothing more than lines of codes, the characters become nothing more than sets of dialogue, all of which you've seen and experienced. The game ceases to be. Flowey alludes to this as well in some of his dialogue. When you engage with a video game in the manner Flowey and Chara talk about, you literally consume it until there is nothing left to consume, and then you move on to the next game to do the same thing.


I do assume that Deltarune is going to attempt to make a neo-version of this point, maybe with some yoko taro-style twist on top of it where re-experiencing things adds new context to the consumption of the media, but I'm just speculating about that.
 
That's right, the implication at the end of the game that Chara makes is that they are the feeling of mindless progress that so many video game players grind for. The endless increasing of numbers for no other sake than the increase itself. If you've ever played a mindless dungeon crawler and leveled up way beyond what was needed to progress, simply because you enjoyed the feeling of winning battles and seeing your level increase, that was Chara, The embodiment of the player's desire for power, stats, and destruction (EXP, LV, HP)
I wonder what would have happened had Toby know about the gacha epidemic of nowadays when he had this idea back then.

The implication Chara the demon is making when you disagree with them and they say "Since when were you the one in control here", is that you are driven by your lustful need to increase your stats, to the point that you would destroy the entire world, the game itself, if it meant you would gain a level, even if you outwardly deny it.
The issue with this is that Chara is also a regular demon, as going back to the game forces you into a pact with said entity which ensures a bad ending, which wouldn't be the case if C. was "just" your powergaming urges. Trying to be both things at once feels silly. Plus I wasn't allowed to kill neither the monster kid nor Alphys.
 
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2 new theories I've liked lately

Tear Theory: The shadow crystals are tears.

This one has probably been posted already, but Toilet theory. Basically the sewers are extremely important and the roots beneath hometown that the people are traveling through to around.
 
I don't believe Toby had the same kind of fourth wall breaking plot ideas in mind for Undertale like he does for Deltarune.
That's right, the implication at the end of the game that Chara makes is that they are the feeling of mindless progress that so many video game players grind for.
Tbf I have a natural aversion and distaste for meta plots so maybe that's why this all just reads like babble to me.
The meta shit has been so done to death at this point I just can't force myself to give a shit. :lossmanjack:

That and it kind of feels like it defeats itself. Like
>You did this! You should feel bad for killing these people
>Except they're not this is a video game and we are actively acknowledging none of this is real BUT YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ANYWAY!

I don't get it. :stress:
 
I don't get the retards who feel the need to inject real-life politics into fantasy worlds. Isn't the point of fantasy to forget about your shitty real life and the hellish world we live in and live through another character? NO BUT LOOK FICTIONAL CHARACTER AGREES WITH ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I wanted to argue politics, I would have turned my computer off and gone to argue with my retarded coworkers over lunch
 
I don't get the retards who feel the need to inject real-life politics into fantasy worlds. Isn't the point of fantasy to forget about your shitty real life and the hellish world we live in and live through another character? NO BUT LOOK FICTIONAL CHARACTER AGREES WITH ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I wanted to argue politics, I would have turned my computer off and gone to argue with my retarded coworkers over lunch.
The main issue I have with it is that it's completely pointless. A couple years ago it was basically characters waving Palestine flags. A guy actually lit himself on fire over this and did the war stop? No. Bibi would probably piss himself laughing at the clown who did it I believe that it is a logical extreme of pursuing fiction - when the boundary is no more you start thinking that doing this can stop everything but it doesn't because reality doesn't work this way.

Funniest thing I've seen was someone editing one of these arts to show Hitler fighting ICE. And I saw someone AI generate Judge Holden fighting ICE. You got to show how absurd it is.
 
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