Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[Dumpster dived waifu]

Speaking of Noelle, what do you think the likelihood is of a dark world taking place in the Holiday House?

Considering what options are left, it's entirely possible as a means of us confronting Carol and/or the Roaring Knight. There's very few options left for a dark world at a new location, all we have left is Police Station, Hospital, Sans' store, the Diner, Ice-E's and other people's houses.

People's houses, the Diner and Ice-E's likely won't have enough relevance to the plot to be worth having a Dark World in.
Police Station wouldn't be distinct enough on a plot level from the Flower Shop.
Hospital is possible, both from the angle of Kris' therapy from when he was younger, Berdly dying in his ice coma, or Rudy's health failing.
Sans' store is a wild card, because we still have no idea if Sans is plot important or Toby fucking with everyone using the guy that breaks 4th wall.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

I had some hope that Toby was making it feel intentionally forced, especially since they straight up lampshade it with Noelle straight up saying that relationships dont count if they are, but Toby basically nipped that in the bud with the anniversary stream cringe bullshit about big strong girls who like nice girls or whatever the fuck.

The exact phrasing he used was that he was that some people might think Susie and Undyne are similar characters because they're both "intimidating strong girls who care deeply about their friends and also maybe something about that one shy girl". That's fairly vague wording. I think he's given himself some wiggle room for that not to mean why the yurifags think it means. Tobias Vulpes would never let us down. Trust the plan. Just two more weeks months years decades until Chapter 7, and then we'll see.

Honestly, we shit on fujos a lot, deservedly so, but I think it is time we start preparing rope for the terminal yurifags. It is ascended cuck shit to be the kind of guy who pines over relationships where a man is not even involved.

We're long overdue on recognizing the yurifag menace. Fujos always acted more overly cringey and the Japs helpfully gave us a funny name to call them, but yurifags have been infiltrating nerd media and shoving their fetish in things under the guise of leftist political reasons. And their characters and writing are always hamfisted and bad. Whenever I think of yurifags, I always think of the Dobson phenotype of fat, ugly male feminist who comes off as obsessing over lesbians because he can't really picture his self-insert actually getting with a woman himself.

Toby might not fit that, but maybe his lesbian obsession is related to some hang-ups he as that also causes his writing to feel very sexless. Like despite all the talk about romance and romantic feelings in his games, no character ever comes across as really expressing any overt sexual interest in anyone. It's like that one Yoshiyuki Tomino quote about how Makoto Shinkai always writes stories "about a boy and girl reaching out their hands to touch each other, yet the boy never reaches out for her pussy". Characters talk about romantically persuing other characters, but there's no concrete idea of how it's different from platonic feeling, which is why fans tend to fill in the gaps in their minds when talking to each other about the characters. It's why the game can so easily joke about things like Rouxls shoving himself into Lanino and Elnina's relationship or Berdley telling Kris he's next in his romantic conquests after Susie and Noelle, because you're not expected to think about that entailing anything sexual.

In a way, this type of thinking some people do in trying to divorce romance from sex can make Noelle look more innocent. If think of Noelle as being horny over Susie rather than that she's afflicted with tru wuv from Cupid's arrow, then she suddenly looks a lot weirder even without doing the "what if she was male" thought experiment.

 

[Two Dollars]

While we’re all venting about shipping again, I want to share my favorite Krusie story, Dumbass Duo. The author shut down his AO3 account but someone archived the whole thing, and someone else backed up the two chapters that weren’t covered in the archive (Part 4 and Part 11). Most of the chapters are one-shots, with only the final chapter having a lot of callbacks, hence why they’re listed as individual stories.

And I think the whole thing is good, but I might as well include some relative rankings:

Spoiler: Rankings

Stupid Race - A

Hearts of Gold, Dumbs of Ass - A

Even Dumbasses Have Dating Battles - S

Digital Dummies - B

All Stupid’s Eve - C

Two Halves of a Whole Idiot - C

How to Dumb Drawgons - S

Lights! Camera! Stupid! - A

I’m Not Dumb, I Know What Entropy Means - S, arguably the best one IMO

Boneheads - B

Another Idiot - C

Stupid Among the Stars - S

Just a Stupid Syntax Error - B

Stupidlovania - S

 

[Peru oso donas]

Considering what options are left, it's entirely possible as a means of us confronting Carol and/or the Roaring Knight. There's very few options left for a dark world at a new location, all we have left is Police Station, Hospital, Sans' store, the Diner, Ice-E's and other people's houses.

People's houses, the Diner and Ice-E's likely won't have enough relevance to the plot to be worth having a Dark World in.
Police Station wouldn't be distinct enough on a plot level from the Flower Shop.
Hospital is possible, both from the angle of Kris' therapy from when he was younger, Berdly dying in his ice coma, or Rudy's health failing.
Sans' store is a wild card, because we still have no idea if Sans is plot important or Toby fucking with everyone using the guy that breaks 4th wall.

There's also the mayor's building which is probably one of the runner ups for chapter 6 alongside the Holiday residence and the hospital.

 

[X Prime]

Honestly, we shit on fujos a lot, deservedly so, but I think it is time we start preparing rope for the terminal yurifags. It is ascended cuck shit to be the kind of guy who pines over relationships where a man is not even involved.

I should be declared a prophet of the Angel:

Look, the rules are very simple.

The ideal amount of LGBTQ+ presence in any game after all mandatory villain deaths is 0%.

I don't get what's so hard about this.

 

[Dumpster dived waifu]

There's also the mayor's building which is probably one of the runner ups for chapter 6 alongside the Holiday residence and the hospital.

I pulled up a map of the town, and I completely blanked on the existence of town hall. RIP. If a Dark World needs to exist to explore Carol, it'd be either he house or town hall. If we get one, I can't imagine us getting the other.

This is all excluding a town wide Dark World where we visit every location briefly or Toby gives us the longest chapter possible.

 

[Cucktry Roads]

Chapter 5 will be the Flower Shop
Chapter 6 will be the lake due to the foreshadowing when sitting by it and from Onion-San
Chapter 7 will be the bunker.

That's unless Toby goes and adds multiple dark worlds to one chapter.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Rouxls shoving himself into Lanino and Elnina

Chapter 5 will be the Flower Shop
Chapter 6 will be the lake due to the foreshadowing when sitting by it and from Onion-San
Chapter 7 will be the bunker.

That's unless Toby goes and adds multiple dark worlds to one chapter.

Keep in mind that there are multiple roped off roads in town, so Toby could legitimately just open up the town more and have the next big setpiece be somewhere we haven't even seen yet if he wanted to.

I don't think the festival is going to be in the middle of the street or some shit lol

 

[Dumpster dived waifu]

Chapter 6 will be the lake due to the foreshadowing when sitting by it and from Onion-San
Chapter 7 will be the bunker.

I think what Onion-San is hearing from the bottom of the lake is the bunker. We don't know how big/deep either are. I think it makes more sense to put all of the spooky mystery shit in one place but have it leak out in multiple ways and places to sell how out of our depth we are.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

That is how almost all yuri ships are treated, it is one of the most profound fandom double standards of our time. Any kind of uninteresting, boring, or otherwise "problematic" element of a ship is okay so long as it is Lesbian and "Cute."

I fucking hate sapphics.

Even if I wasn't playing for the opposite team I can't stand the shit they pull.

 

[The Blue Room]

As long as we're on the topic of chapters, it's rubbed me the wrong way since I finished chapter 4 that after beating it Gaster states:
"THE HALFWAY MARK HAS BEEN ATTAINED."
But four is half of eight, not seven. Combine this with something Toby said during the 10th anniversary livestream about how it's "important to set expectations in your game and then exceed them," (Referring to the bosses after Asgore), and I feel like we're 50/50 on getting an eighth chapter. Think about it: Toby playing off of the JRPG trope of there being seven chapters and then one-upping it would be very much like him.

That being said, I'm aware Gaster says the halfway mark has been "attained" not "this is the halfway mark" so he would still be correct if there were only seven.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

As long as we're on the topic of chapters, it's rubbed me the wrong way since I finished chapter 4 that after beating it Gaster states:
"THE HALFWAY MARK HAS BEEN ATTAINED."
But four is half of eight, not seven. Combine this with something Toby said during the 10th anniversary livestream about how it's "important to set expectations in your game and then exceed them," (Referring to the bosses after Asgore), and I feel like we're 50/50 on getting an eighth chapter. Think about it: Toby playing off of the JRPG trope of there being seven chapters and then one-upping it would be very much like him.

That being said, I'm aware Gaster says the halfway mark has been "attained" not "this is the halfway mark" so he would still be correct if there were only seven.

Possible. I took it to mean that at least one of the remaining chapters is long enough that they expect total playtime of chapters 5~7 to roughly equal chapters 1~4.

 

[Deus Exica]

In a way, this type of thinking some people do in trying to divorce romance from sex can make Noelle look more innocent. If think of Noelle as being horny over Susie rather than that

The problem is the game clearly does not do this and she is one of the most overtly horny characters in the whole game. The way she gets all horned up looking at Queen's cooter, gets hot and bothered over thinking about being pushed around and bullied, and the way she positions herself in the lineup to stare at Susie's ass is all pretty sexually charged.

 

[Smiling Trashbag]

Speaking of Noelle, what do you think the likelihood is of a dark world taking place in the Holiday House?

Honestly, I find it likely that it will be the next chapter dark fountain instead of the flower shop. Not only does the Holiday house has a garden that can fit with the prophecy, but Asgore is the one that takes care of the garden, plus we still need to get the code for the bunker that is in their house, and it would also be the perfect place to reveal the Knight's identity.

 

[Peru oso donas]

As long as we're on the topic of chapters, it's rubbed me the wrong way since I finished chapter 4 that after beating it Gaster states:
"THE HALFWAY MARK HAS BEEN ATTAINED."
But four is half of eight, not seven. Combine this with something Toby said during the 10th anniversary livestream about how it's "important to set expectations in your game and then exceed them," (Referring to the bosses after Asgore), and I feel like we're 50/50 on getting an eighth chapter. Think about it: Toby playing off of the JRPG trope of there being seven chapters and then one-upping it would be very much like him.

That being said, I'm aware Gaster says the halfway mark has been "attained" not "this is the halfway mark" so he would still be correct if there were only seven.

It would also be like how Live A Live, a game Undertale/Deltarune are heavily inspired off, also has 7 main chapters + a secret 8th chapter (and then a 9th one but details)

 

[Coolio55]

We're long overdue on recognizing the yurifag menace. Fujos always acted more overly cringey and the Japs helpfully gave us a funny name to call them, but yurifags have been infiltrating nerd media and shoving their fetish in things under the guise of leftist political reasons. And their characters and writing are always hamfisted and bad. Whenever I think of yurifags, I always think of the Dobson phenotype of fat, ugly male feminist who comes off as obsessing over lesbians because he can't really picture his self-insert actually getting with a woman himself.

I don't want to rattle off my usual spiel so I'll keep it brief.
I think that people are starting to make fun of it more and have been doing so since around 2020. We're still a long way away from being able to express dislike on mainstream platforms though.
Still, it's been over a decade since "Gone Home" and it's still fucking happening.

 

[Big Shot]

since "Gone Home"

I just looked up the lead dev team and it's 3 wimminz and 1 soyboy. Makes sense, the gender which tries to shoehorn dykery into media is wimminz themselves. Steven Universe, Owl house, other dyke dating shows masquerading as fantasy are almost entirely staffed by wimminz.

Toby has surrounded himself by tumblr bulldykes since his pre-fame days, just look at the Undertale's credits. If anything I was surprised when Toby hired straight males for the first time to work on Deltarune

But again, Ralsei got flanderized from a lovable(?) beta loser to a beyond pathetic faggot and a doormat, I'm afraid we're gonna see more flanderization (including susie and noelle being reduced to nothing but LOOK AT US, WE'RE DYKES) and input from ""new writers""

 

[Coolio55]

I just looked up the lead dev team and it's 3 wimminz and 1 soyboy. Makes sense, the gender which tries to shoehorn dykery into media is wimminz themselves. Steven Universe, Owl house, other dyke dating shows masquerading as fantasy are almost entirely staffed by wimminz.

Eh, it really depends on the era.
It used to be 50/50 between feminists and soys but then the feminists began to get usurped by their troon minions.
To put it simply: It started as part of the movement to suppress normal sexuality ...then it became a symptom of the movement's success.
Irony of ironies - Yuri is now being used against a lot of its original proponents.

 

[ducktales4gameboy]

So, bit of a left turn; who's everyone's favorite character? Mine's Asgore, though I kinda like Gerson as well.

Undyne when Alphys isn't involved and/or Asgore. I think you probably have to have encountered someone who's 500% passionate/shameless about everything IRL to understand exactly how on-point Undyne's satire is.

I'd say Susie too except at this point I'm almost positive she's being set up for tragedy. She's got some great lines (and I'll be the one person to call out the multiplayer zelda segment as phenomenal character building for her in the specific way she interacts with things in the game) but there's not going to be a happy ending for her and it's telegraphed way too hard to the point where it feels mildly manipulative.

wanna know a game that came out years before that did a tragic villain way better

If you want to see a game absolutely nail that sort of tragic villain, Nier Automata's Route A ending and how what happens there is recontextualized while you're playing through route B.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

She's got some great lines (and I'll be the one person to call out the multiplayer zelda segment as phenomenal character building for her in the specific way she interacts with things in the game)

The Zelda sections are all very interesting.