Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[Bob Barbas]

I did feel feels about Asriel and the fight though. "Sad evil" in general tends to affect me deeply for some reason.

It's like one of the worst depictions of it though in terms of writing.
I'm gonna power level here and say you wanna know a game that came out years before that did a tragic villain way better? Super Paper Mario, yes I know cringe for citing a bing bing wahoo game but Count Bleck is a decent tragic villain. Not saying he's the very best or anything but good enough and surprisingly good for a fucking Mario game at least. I can kinda get what Toby was going for don't get me wrong but it definitely could have been handled better imo, or at least more organically.
Again we don't even really learn Flowey's actual past outside of Genocide too. Like we learn his ORIGINS but his actual thoughts and feelings are locked to the Genocide route so if you never bothered to play Genocide before True Pacifist there's a shitton of context missing that and Genocide taints your save file unless you know exactly what files to delete to undo it which is also pretty cringe if you just want that information.

 

[Borplesnort]

Favorite Undertale characters are Asgore and Alphys. Both deeply flawed characters who made mistakes and have to live with the consequences.

Favorite Deltarune characters are Kris, Susie and Spamton. The final bit of Spamton NEO's fight, when you snap the final wire and he just crumples without a word or any fanfare left a big impression on me. You cut the marionette's strings, and that's it.

Honorable mention is Jevil. Hearing "I can do anything!" and getting shitstomped by the stupid scythe attack on the first go was incredible.

I hope to see the shadow mantle critter/eram/John S. Mantle become a proper character. Seemed pretty lore significant.

 

[Bob Barbas]

Also I missed that discussion but fuck it I need to vent about it too because I can't do it anywhere else without getting swarmed by retards.
I'm also glad I'm not the only one that thinks the Susie Noelle """romance""" is really shit and cringe. And unless the story is intentionally leading up to pointing out that it is indeed shit and cringe which I highly HIGHLY doubt Toby will do, I heavily dislike it.
As others have said Kris has way more chemistry with Susie then Noelle ever will. Fuck he has more history with Susie whereas we know for a fact Noelle has mostly just been stalking her at best. Hell, I'd even argue fucking KRIS has more chemistry with Noelle given their history than with Susie.
I'm honestly starting to believe Toby really does have a faggot fetish or something considering straight relationships just cannot seem to exist in his works for whatever reason. They're either lesbos or faggots with Toriel and fucking Sans being the only exception it seems.

And Asgore is simply not allowed to be happy, he shall be cucked in every universe, so says Toby.

 

[Niggs Monaghan]

Here are my unpopular character opinions:
I really don't like Sans.
He's a little funny at moments in Undertale, but I just think overall he's a real jerk. I'd still want him in the game and whatever, but he's not a character I "like". I feel that about a lot of characters in Toby's works tbh, like I don't like them but I like the overall narrative.
Especially for Alphys. I actually love the old lab section and her whole backstory and stuff, but as for how she acts, I feel like I must always have the "disgusted Tanjiro" expression when she comes up in game. And her relationship with Undyne felt weird and out of nowhere, and kind of unrelated to anything else. Like "look at this gross evil nerd, she sucks but she wants to redeem herself. I know what will be a satisfying conclusion to her character arc: Let's ship her as a lesbian!"
I know these are unpopular opinions, but it is how I feel. But I also think the Undyne/Alphys thing feels a lot like Susie and Noelle. Just shipping for the sake of lesbian fanart for Tony to goon to.

 

[Dumpster dived waifu]

On the subject of favorite characters;
In Undertale, i'd probably say Flowey. I enjoy his taunting and general attitude of just being an asshole for the love of the game.
In Deltarune, it's Ralsei. Despite not trusting him, I find him incredibly endearing and sweet, and is really like if people stopped pushing the Kris/Ralsei ship because it just feels gross.

 

[ruckingfetard]

I think Undyne and Alphys worked better because at least Toby was willing to have Undyne point out Alphys's bullshit and dunk her,

With Susie and Noelle I do not see the narrative ever point out how creepy, annoying, and sometimes shitty Noelle is in the context of her crush. She throws Kris under the bus to get closer to Susie, she actively ignores Susie's bullying of Kris despite knowing she steps over the line with the things she says during said bullying, and generally it seems like all Noelle likes about Susie are her negative traits. You know. The traits that we, and Kris, have coaxed Susie to step out of and show a more wholesome side of. And niggers will be like "well that's because you're taking Susie's bullying so serious, obviously it's teeheefunny" but they will straight face tell you that everything else in the story involving Kris is 100% serious to the point they treat him like an actual person and not a video game character, therefore you're committing a hatecrime if you misgender him.

If Toby has any balls he would let the story point this out: that Noelle only likes this underdeveloped idea of Susie. But Because of scenes during the Noelle's house portion, I don't have hopes. It's just this vapid troon idea of lesbians: HECKIN CUDDLES AND VIDEO GAMES.
If I were forced to make Noelle and Susie happen, I would do it this way: Susie calls out Noelle's cowardly bullshit, and stands up for Kris. This would work with Rudy's desires to have Noelle toughen up. Noelle learns to accept Susie for who Susie is, not her weird fetishistic toxic yuri idea. No SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS, make these bitches grow.
But If I had things my way, Noelle and Susie would not happen. Susie would reject Noelle and Noelle grows as a person beyond her faggot crush. Susie continues to develop with her true homies.

Also notice how no fans have anything of value to say about those two. It's just THEYRE SO CUTE, NOELLE IS SO CUTE. I don't think people even really like them as a couple, it's just LESBIAN GOOD.

 

[Metallic Blood]

Is it wrong that I enjoy fan interpretations of Noelle way more than what's canon? She goes full retard mode whenever there's even a sniff of Susie nearby, which is bloody annoying, but whenever you take that away from her, she's actually quite enjoyable (can't believe I have to "assassinate" one of my classmates for the doe to not be a total prick)

And unless the story is intentionally leading up to pointing out that it is indeed shit and cringe which I highly HIGHLY doubt Toby will do, I heavily dislike it.

I actually genuinely believe the game is gonna put Noelle straight into the garbage where she belongs. Very of me, but I refuse to believe Tony Wolfington is making that deer unintentionally irritating, he knows how to write good characters... most of the time, he knows Noelle is a full-on prick, and he definitely knows that Suselle is an awful ship with no chemistry... r-right?

 

[Deus Exica]

I'm also glad I'm not the only one that thinks the Susie Noelle """romance""" is really shit and cringe.

I had some hope that Toby was making it feel intentionally forced, especially since they straight up lampshade it with Noelle straight up saying that relationships dont count if they are, but Toby basically nipped that in the bud with the anniversary stream cringe bullshit about big strong girls who like nice girls or whatever the fuck.

Honestly, we shit on fujos a lot, deservedly so, but I think it is time we start preparing rope for the terminal yurifags. It is ascended cuck shit to be the kind of guy who pines over relationships where a man is not even involved.

I fully anticipate that despite Suselle being really cringe, forced, boring, and often feeling like a fanfic crudely crammed into a game with writing that is usually the exact opposite of that, they will be one hundred percent confirmed at the end of the game.

wrong that I enjoy fan interpretations of Noelle way more than what's canon?

Fans just like to play with her other traits and the peculiar dynamics and hang ups she has. The main game plays up her Susie obsession to an absurd degree when the more interesting elements of her character remain implication or utterly ignored outside of Snowgrave.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Also notice how no fans have anything of value to say about those two. It's just THEYRE SO CUTE, NOELLE IS SO CUTE. I don't think people even really like them as a couple, it's just LESBIAN GOOD.

Yeah more or less. I feel like I've said this before but if Noelle was a man and the stupid fucking yuri angle wasn't there, "Dudelle" would be seen by the majority of the fandom the same way Berdley is; an annoying creeper.

There is absolutely nothing between these characters relationship-wise beyond baseline horniness. All Noelle is doing to further the connection with Susie is
1) reaping the rewards of Kris helping Susie open up
2) immediately shitting all over Kris and claiming, multiple times, that they aren't even real friends so she can butter up Susie

I didn't actually realize this before but the "Yeah Kris is just my neighbor I barely know him lol lmao" happens in both Susie/Noelle scenes. The Ferris wheel time is obvious but if you wait long enough in the closet scene too she pulls the same bullshit.

Noelle is a cunt. Like I get Kris is kind of a little shit in his own right but straight up pretending you aren't even friends after knowing each other since you were like 7, just so you can get into Susie's pants, is beyond low. It's bad enough you couldn't stop flicking your bean while susie was beating up and threatening to kill Kris, then you gotta pull that nonsense?


What possible romantic relationship could Susie and Noelle even have after the initial glow wears off? Susie is desperate because she's homeless and has zero emotional connections outside of Kris, and Noelle gets moist thinking about Susie beating her up. These two people barely know each other.

 

[Big Shot]

with writing that is usually the exact opposite of that

I mean, did you see Ch3&4's writing? At this point I have lowered my standards to the ground

My biggest fear is that the story is gonna be "Steven Universe"-ified. Starts with a coherent plot but midway until the end turns into a dyke dating simulator

 

[Bob Barbas]

I think Undyne and Alphys worked better because at least Toby was willing to have Undyne point out Alphys's bullshit and dunk her,

Yeah that was admittedly what made me tolerate it a little better was the fact that Undyne was willing to shit on her a bit instead of just babying her. We also only really know them both for a short time so we kind of just walk in on it.
Unlike Deltarune where we know for a fact Noelle barely knows Susie and has only recently even started interacting with her personally instead of just stalking her.

it's just LESBIAN GOOD.

That's literally it though. Like everyone else said if Noelle was a guy everyone would call out how shitty she is. They always give a pass if it's a female doing it.

immediately shitting all over Kris and claiming, multiple times, that they aren't even real friends so she can butter up Susie

"Yeah Kris is just my neighbor I barely know him lol lmao"

It will never happen but I would fucking love for Susie to overhear her dismissing Kris like that at some point and her getting pissed and confronting her over it.
"Not exactly friends?! You've known him longer than I have! What the fuck do you mean?! You were like the only person he had before I stopped shoving him into lockers!"
It would honestly be cathartic to have Susie shit on Noelle for being like that but I know Toby "Lesbian Lover" Fox will never have the balls to do it.
Maybe Kris at some point tells Susie that she's lying about not knowing him that well. I mean fuck we KNOW she's lying since doesn't she say somewhere in Chapter 2 that only they know how weird eachother are or some bullshit like that?
Fuck Noelle, like actually, she's a shit friend, full stop. Much like Toby, when shit gets real, Noelle's not gonna have your back.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

doesn't she say somewhere in Chapter 2 that only they know how weird eachother are or some bullshit like that?

"Kris is the only one who knows how weird I am. It's not fair! Everyone knows how weird they are."

It's in the same section where you can tells someone that Kris and Noelle are friends or "something else", and Noelle even remarks how nice it is to hear Kris say that they're friends.

 

[Borplesnort]

I'm probably going to be brutally disappointed, but I have faith that the suselle ship is intentionally being setup for disaster. She's obsessed with an idealized, super cunty version of Susie, she only connected with her in a really superficial way and their interests don't match at all, and most importantly, Noelle keeps throwing Susie's new best friend Kris under the bus. I have a feeling that some point Susie is going to overhear Noelle talking shit and will piece together that Kris and Noelle go way back. Which leads to our "inferno of jealousy."

I also think Noelle is related to the Angel in some way or another, and no matter what route, something's going to push her over the edge and she's going to be the one to kick off the climax. Probably Rudy dying or something. Noelle does know how to make fountains, our penultimate or final fountain might end up in the hospital.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

 

[Tinnitus]

We also only really know them both for a short time so we kind of just walk in on it.

Undyne unknowingly prevented Alphys from commiting suicide and the latter had nothing to keep her as a friend, they've just shared an interest in anime.

Meanwhile with Mettaton, Alphys didn't finish his upgrades because the former would abandon her like he did Napstablook.

TL : DR
She found a real friend in Undyne.

Meanwhile Noelle thirsts over an oblivious purple dinosaur after having lent her a pencil.

 

[Coolio55]

If "Little Monsters" turns out to be the better "DELTARUNE" I'm going to go fucking ballistic.

Don't worry gang. I've been making a list of "backup UNDERTALEs"; all 2013 or earlier.
The USB is currently unavailable though. It'll be a few days.

I have faith in Toby but I'm also a pragmatic person.
E: That Garbage Pail Kids review quote is evergreen. Here's my thoughts on Suselle.

Imagine for a moment your blender. Imagine if the glass container of your blender could be removed, but the base, with the spinning blades, is intact. Now imagine those blades spinning away and someone maintaining eye contact with you as they begin doing naked squats over those blades. Squat after naked squat, each time getting a little lower, never breaking eye contact with you. And the horror builds and builds until the inevitable moment when that person squats their junk right down on that blender. That's what [Suselle] is like, a slow, terrible build up to something that has been terrible all along but just keeps getting worse.

 

[my penis is on fire]

but I have faith that the suselle ship is intentionally being setup for disaster.

The in me says the Suselle mention on stream is just more setup to rugpull the people expecting Alphyne 2 since Bob Fox sure does love his rugpulls. Hopefully their relationship has something to do with the ending dream so there's a lower chance of fujoshiggers convincing him to rewrite it.

[DOUBLEPOST]
Re: Noelle and the Weird Route, I have a longshot prediction for how it's gonna end, assuming Dess Knight and the speculation that the route ends in Chapter 5. Basically I bet the Knight encounters Kris and Noelle, realizes what he did to her little sister, then decides to stop cooperating and just fucking kills him.

 

[The Blue Room]

What did Toby mean by this?

 

[Deus Exica]

I feel like I've said this before but if Noelle was a man and the stupid fucking yuri angle wasn't there, "Dudelle" would be seen by the majority of the fandom the same way Berdley is; an annoying creeper.

That is how almost all yuri ships are treated, it is one of the most profound fandom double standards of our time. Any kind of uninteresting, boring, or otherwise "problematic" element of a ship is okay so long as it is Lesbian and "Cute."

have a feeling that some point Susie is going to overhear Noelle talking shit and will piece together that Kris and Noelle go way back. Which leads to our "inferno of jealousy."

I feel like the obvious setup will be that Kris tagging along and having fun with Susie when Noelle thinks it is going to be a spicy date between her and her obsession fits the bill, but I feel like Toby is going to cuck out.

 

[TheCrackMonkey]

Speaking of Noelle, what do you think the likelihood is of a dark world taking place in the Holiday House?