Culture The perverse incentives that help incels thrive in tech - ex-reddit CEO ellen pao talks incels

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The world has recently become more terrifyingly aware of incels, which, if you don’t already know, stands for “involuntary celibate.” It’s an underground coalition of mainly men who complain about how society actively and unfairly deprives them of sex, often, they say, because they are too ugly or too fat.

It is, of course, nonsense. Incels are usually conspiracy theorists, not victims, who believe the world is purposely denying them their fundamental right to sex on demand—and who share many values and tactics with white supremacist, men’s rights, and alt-right groups. Self-declared incels encourage violent acts, including the “incel rebellion” in Toronto that killed 10 people and injured 20 more.

What hasn’t been discussed much is their presence in our everyday lives, including our workplaces. Like many groups of young men whose misogynistic beliefs gestate online, incels often work in the tech industry and in engineering—and because of tech’s long-standing, well-quantified lack of women and other underrepresented groups, it’s a natural fit.

Technology plays a central role for these hate groups, as a career and as a weapon. On incel forums, they pride themselves on their tech contributions; they joke that the world would collapse without them to maintain network infrastructures, and that their companies would fail without them. They move seamlessly among online hate group forums where racism and misogyny feed on one another.

Many large tech companies have unwittingly encouraged these groups in the name of unconstrained debate and “free speech.” Misguided advocates quote the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis—“Sunlight is the best disinfectant”—to argue that open platforms will expose and show the wrongness of hate and terrorism. Instead, though, what we’ve learned from platforms ranging from Reddit and Twitter to GoDaddy and Cloudflare is that public exposure consistently normalizes, encourages, and amplifies these beliefs.

I hear every day from tech employees and executives, and many tell me in painstaking detail about how hate groups are using tech platforms and workplace communities to spread their ideas, onboard new recruits, and train them on how to execute these ideas in their companies. In an industry with predominately white men as employees and leaders, and a hands-off approach to monitoring speech and behavior, hate groups have a huge advantage. They weaponize communications and interactions, setting traps to use as fodder for complaints, trolling, and, in some cases, litigation.

Others expressed concerns about thought policing. After all, whatever goes on in somebody’s head is their own business. And that’s true—until they act on it. Consider how these ideas are directed at weaponizing interactions between incels and others targeted by gender. And how the group intends to spread the behavior and push boundaries as far as they can. Sometimes their misogyny can be hard to spot—like a microaggression inflicted on a coworker. Other times it manifests itself very clearly. We’re not talking about ideas here; we’re talking about employee safety. We don’t allow groups of employees to congregate in person to hurt others; why would we allow it online? Why is it that, when hate takes shape online, people automatically allow it as freedom of expression? Shouldn’t we respond to behavior that is intended to harm others, regardless of where and how it happens?

Incels can be vicious, and dealing with them head-on can be intimidating. When I tweeted a simple question—“CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have incels as employees. What are you going to do about it?”—I got almost 3,000 replies, and many were insults and threats from incels. I also received more than 2,000 likes. And I heard from others who worked with incels at tech companies who were afraid to speak publicly, but expressed support—and a need for action.

One woman told me about an incel at her tech company, and she described a horrifying situation: He started stalking coworkers, going so far as to hide his mobile phone in the bathroom to video female employees using the toilet. He later used the captured video to intimidate, threaten, and harass his colleagues.

The modern workplace—especially in tech—isn’t prepared to deal with these kinds of interactions. When inappropriate behavior is reported to managers or HR, bad actors rarely face serious consequences. In this case, I heard that complaints to HR went unheeded, and the situation escalated, making HR and the company look increasingly foolish for ignoring warning signs.

The tech environment’s star system is a big part of the problem. We hear time and time again about stars getting second, third, or more chances after complaints about their behavior. Instead of addressing the core problem, CEOs delegate to HR, which usually tries to address short-term symptoms by pushing out the person who speaks up. As a result, they compound the core problem, as fewer people see value in speaking up, bad actors feel even more empowered to harass coworkers, and others follow their example.

What should we do? As leaders or managers, our job is to create a productive environment for employees with, at a minimum, physical and emotional security. Aspirationally we want our culture to allow everyone to contribute their best, most meaningful work. In both cases, that absolutely entails creating a diverse and inclusive culture—and that means rooting out and banning incel beliefs.

Ultimately leaders need to lead, even if it’s uncomfortable.

In 2015, as Reddit’s CEO, I was able to start changing the culture both internally and externally. We had just come out of a painful period in which we enabled the widespread viewing of unauthorized nude photos of celebrities on the site. In the office, we prided ourselves on an open culture that reflected our product, exemplified most memorably for me in a 45-minute-long, company-wide discussion comparing the aesthetics of penises and breasts.

Changing Reddit’s culture was an ongoing, multistep process. I invited outside speakers to talk to our team about diversity and inclusion. CEOs like Y Combinator's Michael Seibel, Coinbase’s Brian Armstrong, and Stellar’s Joyce Kim described their successes through the lens of diversity and inclusion. We held an all-hands focused on change; Freada Kapor Klein and Mitch Kapor led a session on culture and anti-harassment and anti-discrimination, including dos and don’ts of behavior and interactions. Afterward, several women reported having been harassed by coworkers; we tried to address each situation individually through conversations and warnings, and the problem in aggregate through ongoing monitoring and values reinforcement. And it seemed to work: No one sued us, and, six months later, the same women said they were satisfied with changes in behavior and interactions.

At the same time, I enforced our values, especially around privacy, on the Reddit website. We were the first major site to ban unauthorized nude photos and revenge porn. A few months later, we banned the five most harassing subreddits—and a study showed we were effective in reducing hate speech.

What I learned was pretty simple, but effective internally and externally: 1. Make your company values and codes of conduct (internal and external) clear. Write them down and share them. 2. Build multiple paths for raising concerns and reporting violations, and make them easy to understand and easy to take. 3. Learn about violations as early as possible, especially ones that can escalate. You should focus on solving the actual problem, not trying to hide its symptoms.

Back then, pre-#MeToo and pre-Susan Fowler, I felt like my efforts were not valued by many, especially when I was fired. But I have no regrets. If we don’t lead and address these problems proactively, they won’t go away. Any conversation that values one group of people less than others is inappropriate for the workplace, because it almost certainly conflicts with company values. Conversations encouraging unwanted, misogynistic actions on others should also be banned. Using our company’s workspaces—physical ones, virtual ones, tools, and platforms—to spread this kind of thinking should be a fireable offense. We cannot allow employees to mobilize identity-based intolerance, much less against their own coworkers.

Tech workers know incels and the like expertly wield our companies’ innovations to attack the vulnerable. Employees also know those toxic beliefs are shared by more coworkers than many of us realize—and they’re willing to push to end them. When a group of Google employees teamed with investors this month to put inclusion on the Google shareholder ballot, they stated that workers were “feeling unsafe and unable to do our work.” Their initiative wasn’t particularly controversial except for its format, which forced management to confront these issues publicly and reactively.

Now, what actions do you plan to take to address the incels in your workforce and to protect your employees and culture—before you don’t have a choice anymore?

https://www.wired.com/story/ellen-pao-the-perverse-incentives-that-help-incels-thrive-in-tech
 
"Incel" is now a label that can be slapped on anything deemed problematic and male, and it's now associated with acts of terror due to the incredibly lazy reporting done. So it's a more potent label to accuse people of being than more generic ones like "techbro", like how James Damore became an evil "techbro" who said women weren't good enough to work in tech, or something.

Only a couple of months ago most people did not know what an incel was. Now they are the single greatest threat to modern civilization, a terrorist force that threatens to sweep across the land, resulting in a moral panic where thinkpiece writers go out of their way to accuse as many people as possible of being hideous virgin subhumans deserving of a purge. A lot of the professional coverage by alleged journalists is fascinating in how jaw-droppingly boring and lazy it is, just reaching into the buzzword chumbucket and squeezing out some word juice; the reportage is on "the hacker known as 4chan" levels of quality and research.
 
What criteria will be used? Number of extra pounds? Area covered by acne? BO?
You have HR loudly mispronounce World of Warcraft terminology, and when someone corrects them that blood elf NPCs are saying "Salama ashalanore" and not "salami-a-snorey," thankyouverymuch they're already caught.
 
"Incel" just seems to be another word for failures to use to excuse their own failure. Nobody would fuck Ellen Pao even if she were in full bondage gear at an incel convention, if there even is such a thing.

"Incel" is now a label that can be slapped on anything deemed problematic and male, and it's now associated with acts of terror due to the incredibly lazy reporting done.

I'm glad.

Not because it's true but because I'm just sick of hearing about goobergrape over and over again.
 
I'm glad.

Not because it's true but because I'm just sick of hearing about goobergrape over and over again.
Hah! Shows what you know. Obviously anyone involved with Gamergate was a terroristic incel, so the anti-GG were actually risking life and limb during the Autism War.

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I expect no better of Pao, of course. She's a ruthless grifter and striver. That's what's behind the talk of how incels are threatening 'emotional security'; Pao is not some hysterical woman who needs a fainting couch. She is very cold, rational, calculating.
 
I expect no better of Pao, of course. She's a ruthless grifter and striver. That's what's behind the talk of how incels are threatening 'emotional security'; Pao is not some hysterical woman who needs a fainting couch. She is very cold, rational, calculating.

Let's just say it. She's a chink. Name the chink.
 
Yeah, incel is new gamergate. This article is using it as a stand-in for misogyny.

And conspiracy theories are a bit more coherent than incel philosophy. They have a specific chain of events that they believe happened (or didn't happen).

I always thought of incels as more handwavy. Incels think more like BLM does than typical conspiracy theorists in my opinion.
Also, why does everyone treat "Conspiracy theorist" as a derogatory term?
Conspiracy theorists are consistently dumb as shit.

In an abstract way, the way conspiracy theorists think is the philosophy, and an example of that philosophy being put into action are sovereign citizens. (Again, abstractly. There are conspiracy theorists all over the political spectrum.)

Generally, if a theory has legs, I don't consider the people considering it to be conspiracy theorists. If it doesn't have legs, and this is clearly obvious to virtually everyone, then the people who keep championing it or "giving it its fair shake" (way beyond what fair would dictate) are conspiracy theorists.

They're one traffic ticket away from rambling about gold fringed flags and "right to travel".
 
Only a couple of months ago most people did not know what an incel was. Now they are the single greatest threat to modern civilization, a terrorist force that threatens to sweep across the land, resulting in a moral panic where thinkpiece writers go out of their way to accuse as many people as possible of being hideous virgin subhumans deserving of a purge. A lot of the professional coverage by alleged journalists is fascinating in how jaw-droppingly boring and lazy it is, just reaching into the buzzword chumbucket and squeezing out some word juice; the reportage is on "the hacker known as 4chan" levels of quality and research.


But how you you really know this new group isn't the vanguard of that massive NeoNazi uprising that will sweep the country any day now and murder every single minority thanks to Trump? Just like the Alt-Right, GamerGate, Birthers, MRAs and Tea Partiers were!
 
"Incel" is now a label that can be slapped on anything deemed problematic and male, and it's now associated with acts of terror due to the incredibly lazy reporting done.
They've also blurred the definition from its original meaning to the point where I even start to see this attitude leaking into KiwiFarms. They seem to think its a catch-all term for any man who's slightly abnormal when it used to specifically refer to folks like Elliot Rodger and the kind of peple who put sex and women as the number one priority in their life and refuse to blame their lack of success on themselves. Obviously this definition wouldn't include most tech nerds who place their hobbies first and tend to not give a shit about women one way or another, but now they're getting thrown under the bus too.
Sorry for the rant, but I needed to get that off my chest as I've been seeing it more and more lately.
like how James Damore became an evil "techbro" who said women weren't good enough to work in tech, or something.
The more I see examples of this, the more I'm lead to assume he's correct, seeing as how a significant portion seem to be diversity hires who only stay in their jobs through nepotism and intimidating their male coworkers.
 
I feel bad for any virgin white dude who doesn't identify as incel. All it takes is for him to accidentally let it slip; "Haha yes, I'm a virgin." Then everyone will scream "INCEL!" even though he probably finds them just as vile as most others do.
 
I feel bad for any virgin white dude who doesn't identify as incel. All it takes is for him to accidentally let it slip; "Haha yes, I'm a virgin." Then everyone will scream "INCEL!" even though he probably finds them just as vile as most others do.

Horseshoe theory, it's only a matter of time now, and we'll see a guy called into HR to be disciplined for making unwanted sexual comments at women, and be immediately followed by a shy guy who never actually says anything to women, but got flagged as an "incel" who is making all the women "uncomfortable" by just filing papers off in the corner and never even acknowledging their presence, since that obviously means he's plotting to murder them all. Oh, he calls every single one a "stupid cunt" in his mind too. They can tell..... their finely-tuned SJWpowers can read his thoughts you know!
 
who share many values and tactics with white supremacist, men’s rights, and alt-right groups.
Nothing screams "I'm an unfuckable faggot" louder than this line.
Yeah, incel is new gamergate. This article is using it as a stand-in for misogyny.
And just like gamergate it's gonna end in a big REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, incels will still be virgin, christians will still blame USA sick society on videogames while the mentally ill will ask for more diversity on the animal kingdom and female incels will still be called feminists.

What a world...
 
Horseshoe theory, it's only a matter of time now, and we'll see a guy called into HR to be disciplined for making unwanted sexual comments at women, and be immediately followed by a shy guy who never actually says anything to women, but got flagged as an "incel" who is making all the women "uncomfortable" by just filing papers off in the corner and never even acknowledging their presence, since that obviously means he's plotting to murder them all. Oh, he calls every single one a "stupid cunt" in his mind too. They can tell..... their finely-tuned SJWpowers can read his thoughts you know!

I actually know a guy that this happened to irl. Dude's got super bad anxiety and he got called into HR that apparently some of his female co workers were uncomfortable that he never talked to or interacted with them and just did his work.
 
I wonder how they are going to identify incels though... Especially those who are not active on incels forums. What criteria will be used? Number of extra pounds? Area covered by acne? BO?

Any man that makes you vaguely uncomfortable is an incel.
 
We need an Elliot Rodger worshipping self described incel mass-shootah
Would love to see the media deal with that

Didn't the Canadian truck of peace guy have a manifesto praising Rodgers? Isn't that where this incel panic shit started.
 
Doesn't this dumb chink whore realize she contributed nothing to tech but failure?

I guess she's angry about that fact.
 
When I tweeted a simple question—“CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have incels as employees. What are you going to do about it?”—I got almost 3,000 replies, and many were insults and threats from incels. I also received more than 2,000 likes. And I heard from others who worked with incels at tech companies who were afraid to speak publicly, but expressed support—and a need for action.

Except that's not what happened. Looking at the actual post, that's hardly the case.
https://twitter.com/ekp/status/991817194987114496
 
We need an Elliot Rodger worshipping self described incel mass-shootah
Would love to see the media deal with that
Oh yeah, no, "incel" suddenly cropping up in the news, including this article, is happening specifically in response to that exact thing happening. What @Ruin said.

The media's reaction is to cheer (quietly to themselves) and start writing a bunch of clickbait articles declaring incels to be the new issue that's tearing the country apart.

The media loves their keywords. We should start making some up.
Except that's not what happened. Looking at the actual post, that's hardly the case.
https://twitter.com/ekp/status/991817194987114496
Also it's not remotely "certain" that big tech companies employ incels. Incels are a very specific group of people, not just a catchall for neckbeard misogynistic virgins (although there's lots in common). Incels are very rare in the first place and it's even more rare for them to have the skills and the functional ability necessary to get hired at a job that doesn't have you wearing a paper hat or operating a forklift.
 
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