🥝 Community The New Order Rises Again - "The Evil Kiwi Farms Hoi4 Mod"

[GoodWinSon]

Spoiler: New Proxy Notes

Notes on new proxy wars



These should be designed to account for any future content added to the proxy tags. Player controlled proxies will get more freedom while AI controlled proxies have paths and behavior determined by their patron nation.



East Asia Pre-GAW:



China-Australasia-America-Russia(s)-Burgundy (sort of) vs Japan



Proxy wars determine which side a tag will be in time for the GAW



Russians help out the Chinese in return for aid



Indochina:



Each Indochinese nation will have a proxy war between a pro and anti Japanese tag

Early on cambodia and thailand will have a border dispute that must be resolved by Japan. If Japan favors Camodia, Thailand will get angry. If Japan favors Cambodia

After these are over depends on what Vietnam has done

If vietnan remains pro-Japan (diem as PM or the other guy), then Vietnam will puppet the other indochina tags that are also pro-japan and then later form indochina. They’ll then attack any non pro-japanese tags to attempt full unification. Failiure will result in anti-japan take over of indochina

Vise versa for anti japan vietnam



Pol Pot is Burgsys and Anti-Japan by the way



Indonesia:



Will remain the same for now but will now include Australian and New Zealander interference.

In the future I want to add a Dutch path which involves enforcing a dutch style government across indonesia and promoting dutch culture



If the civil war ends in neutrality, then China and Japan can try to influence the nation to come to their side



Philippines:



The Philippines will also have an anti-japan uprising. Led by Douglas Macarthur initially. If they win he dies of old age and is either replaced with a civilian government or suceeded by his son Arthur Macarthur.



Burma:



Burma will also have an anti-japan civil war but they also risk collapsing into small statelets. If this happens, then China and Japan will compete to influence each statelet and bring them to their side



Thailand will also seize territories during Burma’s civil war. Letting them keep the territories will critically debuff the pro-Japan burma and buff anti-japan burma. Making Thailand give it back will anger thailand



Syonan:



Syonan will suffer an anti-japan communist uprising



North Borneo:



North Borneo isn’t a proxy-war but you have three options before the GAW starts.

Giving it to Syonan will strengthen the Syonanese government but cause a large anti-japan uprising when the GAW starts

Reenforcing the garrison will buff North Borneo but still cause a smaller uprising when the GAW starts

Giving them their independence leads to no uprising, but Sarawaka wont really be able to help you during the GAW



West China:



A free for all between the KMT remnants, the Japanese controlled Hui, a Burgundian influenced tibet, Xinjiang, and free Mongolia (if they survive)



The victor will unify West china into one state which will either be pro-japan, anti-japan, or neutral.



Xinjiang unifying west china can either restore the CPC or Guominjin. If the GAW ends in Chinese victory, then they can declare themselves the one true government and fight a war with the newly independent Nanjing government.



KMT unifiers can instead peacefully unify with the new government and hence China will have access to new paths and get west chinese politicians as leaders



Thailand:



Thailand is Japan’s wingman, with a powerful military ready to back them. However they are an independent nation with their own agenda. If they are not appeased enough, they’ll throw a hiss fit and side with the Chinese during the GAW. Giving them what they want on the other hand boosts anti-japan nationalists in neighboring nations.



South America Pre-Che’s War



Che’s war is a direct confrontation between Brazil and Argentina but the conflict and proxy wars can be broken into a Left/democrat camp and a nationalist camp



Patrons on the left side are USA, Cuba, Canada, UK (conditional), Russia (conditional), Italy (conditional)



Patrons on the right side are Germany, Japan, Haiti, Dominican Republic, UK (conditional), Russia (conditional), Italy (conditional)



Papa Doc and Trujilo have a death grudge against Castro after an aborted revolution in their nations.



Haiti is primarily backed by Japan, Dominican by Germany



Guyana



Same as current but buffed. If they manage to get away from America they’ll join with the Argentina faction



Columbia



Same as Last Days but with possible unification with Ecuador and Venezuela. For full unification to occur pre-war, one side must make sure their proxies win in all three tags. Columbia determines who backs who in Ecuador vs Peru. Gran Columbia gets some good bonuses and they’re a powerful ally to have/



Ecuador and Peru



Columbia’s patron will back Ecuador and whoever lost in Columbia will back Peru. Ecuador winning takes land off of Peru and Ecuador then joins with Columbia. Peru winning means they take land off of Ecuador and install a puppet regime.



Bolivia and Paraguay



They’ll fight the 2nd Chaco war. Paraguay is rightist, Bolivia is leftist. If Paraguay wins they get access to more right wing paths and take more land off of Bolvia who gets couped by Argentina friendly forces. The reverse is true if Bolivia wins, Paraguay goes democratic/socialist and Bolivia gets Chaco



If Paraguay wins both Che’s war and 2nd Chaco War, they can potentially join with Chile and try to fully retake all historical Paraguayan land



Chile



Argentina’s second. Slowly become more and more Germanophile until they flip Burg Sys. They’re actually Burgundian allies. If they wind Che’s War they’ll backstab Argentina and try to take everything for themselves and form a hell superstate.



Uruguay



Brazil’s second. Argentina will invade them and Brazil will intervene, fully starting Che’s War.



Brazil and Argentina’s



See previous notes on their paths. Argentina’s plan needs more fleshing out

 

[Fishnumm]

i want a romanian-hungarian proxy war that'd be cool

 

[local asuka]

Thoughts for these proxies and the Third Sino-Japanese War as I may return to dev soon and those are what I intended to work on next.

West China:

Spoiler: sperging

The current intention for West China is that after the fall of Yunnan, remnants of the NPA flee north. This spooks Japan into reinforcing Hui, which in turns pushes the three Ma families to try and evict the army in Hui before Japan can reinforce the garrison enough to crush them. China is actually a wildcard here; They can quietly release the captives they have from the NPA and send them north and try to covertly support XBM, or support Japan in the hopes that Japan will turn over the region or otherwise reward them.

The US would interfere from airbases in India. The war would be used as an excuse to build up a presence in India and hopefully improve India's ability to resist or remove Japanese influence. However, this would make US involvement very expensive and limit them to supplying equipment. They would have to expand Indian AFBs and supply cargo planes in order to do this, which would allow them to ramp up supply and cooperation with India at the same time. This was all thought out before India content was added, and I believe India now has a possible civil war that complicates the timing of the war.

Most of Hui's territory is very isolated and it would be quite difficult to send and supply a sizable army quickly up what would be backcountry trails, so Japan would also be stuck with the same mechanics, except with the option to build serious road and rail links that would let them flood the region eventually.

China could either accelerate the Japanese logistics effort, or try to actively sabotage it and reinforce XBM.

Overall my intent with XSM-HUI was to reflect the challenges in attempting to supply large armies in what is very remote, very rough terrain while also building up towards the GAW. My problem is that I wasn't sure if the mechanics I had set up would actually be interesting or fun to interact with. I also considered Xijiang getting involved if Japan was winning too hard. This would produce the same end result as you already intend.

Indonesia:

Japan should always counter-invade Indonesia or bend their arm to still in be in the sphere until the GAW. The one bit of realism that can't really be compromised with the sphere is that Japan is utterly dependent on Indonesia for oil. Without said oil the Japanese economy working at all makes no sense and also the AI can't fuel shit in an actual war. The caveat is that obviously blowing up Free Indonesia or bending them like a folding chair is going to make Indonesia even more hostile and harder to control. The Dutch idea is very funny though so it should be ideally implemented anyway.

The same line of thought goes for the Philippines (substitute oil for 'sea lanes the oil transits'- part of why Japan invaded at all was to remove the threat of the USAAF bombing their shit) but the MacArthur idea is very funny. Maybe when Japan lands he can drop irradiated cobalt onto the beaches.

Vietnam

My thoughts for Vietnam mostly concern the GAW but generally I agree with most of what is written. Vietnam though should be naturally sensitive to Chinese ambitions and generally lean Pro-Japan provided the player isn't too hardline.

 

[GoodWinSon]

Forgot to mention Gunagxi and Guandong. Thought about making them have a war where Guangxi is pro-china and Guangdong wants to stay in Japan's sphere.

Also had an idea for Guangxi where their entire gimmick is destroying the economy for the sake of creating a massive military. They'd be inverse Guangdong

i want a romanian-hungarian proxy war that'd be cool

Already exists for Italy and Germany. Happens during the 72-82 period for Heydrich and Speer so you may not have seen it.

Japan should always counter-invade Indonesia or bend their arm to still in be in the sphere until the GAW. The one bit of realism that can't really be compromised with the sphere is that Japan is utterly dependent on Indonesia for oil. Without said oil the Japanese economy working at all makes no sense and also the AI can't fuel shit in an actual war. The caveat is that obviously blowing up Free Indonesia or bending them like a folding chair is going to make Indonesia even more hostile and harder to control. The Dutch idea is very funny though so it should be ideally implemented anyway.

Maybe Japan could take chunks off of Free Indonesia that they have to get back later.

 

[local asuka]

Also had an idea for Guangxi where their entire gimmick is destroying the economy for the sake of creating a massive military.

Guangxi was unironically known as 'China's Sparta' during WW2 and as far as warlords went it fielded one of the more competent armies, so this actually has some historical roots to it.

Maybe Japan could take chunks off of Free Indonesia that they have to get back later.

Hmm, I have some ideas for borders that could work

Spoiler: draft maps

South of the Blue Line remains Free. This way Japan retains the important resources but still clearly suffers significant territorial losses

This one respects existing state lines and keep map modding to pretty much null.
What I would actually like to do is this but it would require some minor map modding which when I've done it has mostly caused my game to explode



Allowing the Australians to get Port Moresby back would be very neat. Keeping a toehold on Sumatra would make it less trivial to defend overland. Having a larger Toehold on South Borneo would open the island up to some more overland fighting. The main problem is the Sumatra and Papua states are huge (you're not meant to think about them very hard)

Of course ideally you'd create some shithole puppets to take the place of the Indonesian regieme as well.

 

[Randall Fragg]

Yockey’s content should probably have Willis Carto as an important character, since IRL he and Yockey were close. I can see Carto and the Liberty Lobby serving as a way of mainstreaming Yockey’s beliefs.

Also, @GoodWinSon any plans to use Lyndon LaRouche? He could work as a fascist/communist leader for the USA, and is a funny enough character that he should probably get brought up in some way.

 

[GoodWinSon]

Yockey’s content should probably have Willis Carto as an important character, since IRL he and Yockey were close. I can see Carto and the Liberty Lobby serving as a way of mainstreaming Yockey’s beliefs.

Also, @GoodWinSon any plans to use Lyndon LaRouche? He could work as a fascist/communist leader for the USA, and is a funny enough character that he should probably get brought up in some way.

Never knew about LaRouche until now. I always thought Yockey could try and court the L-NPP. Suppose he could fit in there somewhere. Maybe as a possible Yockey successor?

 

[Randall Fragg]

Never knew about LaRouche until now. I always thought Yockey could try and court the L-NPP. Suppose he could fit in there somewhere. Maybe as a possible Yockey successor?

I don't think LaRouche would be a direct successor. Although he worked with the far-right, the neo-Nazis never really considered him 'one of them'. Maybe if Yockey focuses his efforts on taking down the liberals but courts the L-NPP and doesn't succeed in dismantling democracy, LaRouche can oust him. Liberal opposition is crippled, but the L-PP left and elements of the far-right that aren't too keen on Yockey rally behind LaRouche.
EDIT: LaRouche's politics are hilarious. In TNO terms, I'd classify him as either a Communist or a Fascist of his own unique left-leaning variety.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

In response to the poll, you can't lick my Dick.

 

[GoodWinSon]

This was all thought out before India content was added, and I believe India now has a possible civil war that complicates the timing of the war.

Ah, no worries about that right now, the Indian civil war is disabled for now. I'm leaning on making it a post-GAW event.

China could either accelerate the Japanese logistics effort, or try to actively sabotage it and reinforce XBM.

I am curious, what would China gain from helping Japan in this case?

 

[local asuka]

I am curious, what would China gain from helping Japan in this case?

Well, the Chinese government doesn't actually know for sure if the KMT remnants will actually agree to fight under them when the time comes. So even if killing Hui is a great victory for china as an abstract concept, in practical terms for the Nanjing Goverment it just means they've made their nominal opposition that much stronger. Blowing up Japan is popular but 'you get to fight our war for us' is not really an appealing thing to offer politically. Especially because Wang's KMT and actual KMT have been nominal enemies for like 30 years at this point and lot of people in the KMT probably still think they are stinky traitors and would probably like a lot of compromises before heading out to Nanjing, help or no help.

As an histroical aside, the soviets strongarmed the Chinese communists into fighting under the Nationalists and all the nationalists got out of it was watching from the cuck chair as the soviets handed over the largest industrial base in Mainland Asia to the CCP.

Destroying all of the KMT remnants means Japan has no really good reason to leave an army up there anyway, so they might gain some nominal or real territory outright with a much more pliable set of warlords. The government in Nanjing is already openly a Japanese puppet anyway and they can't really tip their hand if they help XSM. So they have a fair bit to gain by being loyal. Especially if Japan made an active effort to entice them- more Japanese industrial aid or machinery is probably a lot more valuable than that particular corner of China.

In practical terms, who China sides with will probably be based on the player's nation. Japan should have the option to set up long-term colonial governments and prop up Hui for real, just so that the Chinese player can't be totally comfortable with it.

 

[Sooty Soot]

Proxy wars determine which side a tag will be in time for the GAW

I can't stress enough how opposed I am to a lot of this purely because it feels too gamey and arcadey. Not every nation in the sphere's loyalty should be determined by a proxy war, it's just gameplay without any rhyme or reason. It seems like it's purely tag consolidation/wars for the sake of having wars instead of any lore reason behind them, Vietnam shouldn't puppet the other Indochinese tags and form Indochina for example, they should all remain independent and side with the tag that sways them in the GAW because it's just more realistic. The closest comparison I can think of is forming meme tags in vanilla like Poland-Lithuania or the HRE, it's literally flavor with no rhyme or reason behind it at all.

The GAW allegiance system should be done through a minigame where China/Japan select one country and fight over its allegiance, decisions made prior to the game and the governments/leaders should only determine the starting influence of Japan and the RoC. Diem, for the example, should lean towards Japan but can be swayed to China's side with enough effort. Laos leans towards China most of the time but swaying them over to China's side locks them out of swaying Thailand, same is true for Cambodia.

Guangxi was unironically known as 'China's Sparta' during WW2 and as far as warlords went it fielded one of the more competent armies, so this actually has some historical roots to it.

Guangdong and Guangxi fighting is also a war just for the sake of having a war, none of the Nanjing-aligned warlords should really matter in the scheme of things, they only exist to represent the RoC's weak hold over Sphere-controlled China and should be destined to be integrated into it no matter what. Guangdong's allegiance should depend on who the cheif executive is, if it's Komai or Matsushita, they side with Japan, if it's a reconciliation Fujitsu or Sony, they reach an agreement with China to become an SAR. The Ma-Hui war does sound like a good idea, though.

We need to avoid having wars just for the sake of wars/gameplay, the concept of the South American war for example seems like that since it sounds like it'll just happen suddenly with little to no build up. I'm already iffy on stuff like Italian Algeria invading the two Tuareg Sahara tags for nor eason other than map painting, but it really seems like that we're making Kaiserreich/vanilla-esque mod and not TNO.

 

[Sooty Soot]

Did an observer run, important things I noticed:
1. AI Speer couldn't dismantle the cartels and by that extent couldn't take the focuses to progress down his econ tree.

2. The Congo tag still retained RK Zentralafrika's tree after stage 3 Huttig collapsed

3. Stage 3 Huttig collapse affected Namibia, Rhodesia, and Mozambique even though they were taken by South Africa in an OFN-leaning ceasefire.

4. The Oil Crisis was way too spaced out, the various tags didn't join the factions of their respective backers after they won. For example the Yemeni civil war happened in late 1969 and the Iraqi civil war happened in late 1970 or early 1971. I don't think Germany even sent volunteers over to the Omani Baathists. Junta Sudan's name also didn't change, Egypt remained stuck in a regency council for the whole game and didn't pick a successor to Farouk, there were no events for the victory of each faction in the Oil Crisis, and so on.

5. The news event for both Lehi and the Palestinian UltraNats fired at the same time, but Lehi took over. The Palestinian UltraNats had cores as I checked later.

6. The communist (Not republican) rebellion in the Gulf remained in Italy's faction and retained the old Italian colonial flag.

7. The Japanese interregnum proceeded as normal now, though Japan took the final focus in the opening tree which is supposed to be impossible to complete while it was happening. The biggest issue however is that Ikeda took over and he couldn't choose between Kido and Takagi, thus leaving him softlocked into his opening tree for the whole game.

8. Burgundy couldn't dismantle the Red Poppy Movement and Charlemegne Legion, leaving them softlocked out of doing the last focus in their tree.

9. The Oil Crisis firing prematurely locked Speer out of the rest of his tree's content.

10. Bennett couldn't do the focuses in his civil rights tree because he couldn't gather enough support in Congress for it.

11. The ConDem leader for Malaysia doesn't have a portrait.

12. Hashemite Jordan joined the UAR, though I did release them from Lehi Israel using console commands. however they were still despotist Only communist Palestine should join the UAR.

13. The Naxalite Revolt in Azad Hind has no OOB.

14. The Congo and Angolan tags that popped up after the Stage 3 collapse have no OOBs despite having civil wars to unify their respective regions.

15. AI was too passive in many conflicts, Kazakhstan was left disunited for the whole game since ComKazakhstan, KhanKazakhstan, and MusKazakhstan were in a stalemate in the West, while FashKazakhstan and AuthDemKazakhstan were in a stalemate in the East. The Black League and WRRF also took way too long to beat each other, like early 1971, while the SBA defeated Far East Chita by early 1970. The Yemeni civil war was also stalemated without me using delall on the Yemen tag, same goes for Sudan with the democrats and junta, and the Italian invasion of Saudi Arabia were they couldn't get a naval invasion, even when I occupation painted it, they didn't take the remaining 3 empty Saudi provinces. More and more of that,

16. The Saudis didn't capitulate until Italy took all of their provinces, I'm like 99% certain this shouldn't happen as this implies they had 100%+ surrender limit.

17. Not sure what happened, but Emil Maurice remained in charge of RK Madagascar despite the civil war happening, but didn't join any faction. Speer dec'd on him in mid 1968 but immediately peaced out within the same day.

18. Indonesian civil war dragged out for way longer than I think is usual, so much so that the war ended with JapIndonesia getting milcouped and a coalition government being formed between them and OFNIndonesia.

19. The AIDS that is the India and Azad Hind trees, no further comment required.

I think that's everything, there are a few more things I have in mind but they're more intended design choices than bugs.

 

[GoodWinSon]

Did an observer run, important things I noticed:
1. AI Speer couldn't dismantle the cartels and by that extent couldn't take the focuses to progress down his econ tree.

2. The Congo tag still retained RK Zentralafrika's tree after stage 3 Huttig collapsed

3. Stage 3 Huttig collapse affected Namibia, Rhodesia, and Mozambique even though they were taken by South Africa in an OFN-leaning ceasefire.

4. The Oil Crisis was way too spaced out, the various tags didn't join the factions of their respective backers after they won. For example the Yemeni civil war happened in late 1969 and the Iraqi civil war happened in late 1970 or early 1971. I don't think Germany even sent volunteers over to the Omani Baathists. Junta Sudan's name also didn't change, Egypt remained stuck in a regency council for the whole game and didn't pick a successor to Farouk, there were no events for the victory of each faction in the Oil Crisis, and so on.

5. The news event for both Lehi and the Palestinian UltraNats fired at the same time, but Lehi took over. The Palestinian UltraNats had cores as I checked later.

6. The communist (Not republican) rebellion in the Gulf remained in Italy's faction and retained the old Italian colonial flag.

7. The Japanese interregnum proceeded as normal now, though Japan took the final focus in the opening tree which is supposed to be impossible to complete while it was happening. The biggest issue however is that Ikeda took over and he couldn't choose between Kido and Takagi, thus leaving him softlocked into his opening tree for the whole game.

8. Burgundy couldn't dismantle the Red Poppy Movement and Charlemegne Legion, leaving them softlocked out of doing the last focus in their tree.

9. The Oil Crisis firing prematurely locked Speer out of the rest of his tree's content.

10. Bennett couldn't do the focuses in his civil rights tree because he couldn't gather enough support in Congress for it.

11. The ConDem leader for Malaysia doesn't have a portrait.

12. Hashemite Jordan joined the UAR, though I did release them from Lehi Israel using console commands. however they were still despotist Only communist Palestine should join the UAR.

13. The Naxalite Revolt in Azad Hind has no OOB.

14. The Congo and Angolan tags that popped up after the Stage 3 collapse have no OOBs despite having civil wars to unify their respective regions.

15. AI was too passive in many conflicts, Kazakhstan was left disunited for the whole game since ComKazakhstan, KhanKazakhstan, and MusKazakhstan were in a stalemate in the West, while FashKazakhstan and AuthDemKazakhstan were in a stalemate in the East. The Black League and WRRF also took way too long to beat each other, like early 1971, while the SBA defeated Far East Chita by early 1970. The Yemeni civil war was also stalemated without me using delall on the Yemen tag, same goes for Sudan with the democrats and junta, and the Italian invasion of Saudi Arabia were they couldn't get a naval invasion, even when I occupation painted it, they didn't take the remaining 3 empty Saudi provinces. More and more of that,

16. The Saudis didn't capitulate until Italy took all of their provinces, I'm like 99% certain this shouldn't happen as this implies they had 100%+ surrender limit.

17. Not sure what happened, but Emil Maurice remained in charge of RK Madagascar despite the civil war happening, but didn't join any faction. Speer dec'd on him in mid 1968 but immediately peaced out within the same day.

18. Indonesian civil war dragged out for way longer than I think is usual, so much so that the war ended with JapIndonesia getting milcouped and a coalition government being formed between them and OFNIndonesia.

19. The AIDS that is the India and Azad Hind trees, no further comment required.

I think that's everything, there are a few more things I have in mind but they're more intended design choices than bugs.

Welcome to my hell. Half the problems are caused by the spaghetti legacy code and the other half is from the Hoi4 AI's wet tissue paper constitution. "Most ambitious mod" I swear most of this mod was coded by primary school students.

On the AI I believe it's overly passive because the AI was not designed to a. control very weak nations and b. handle poor supply. Also getting the AI to naval invade, especially after hoi4 patch 1.16 has been a nightmare.

Complaining aside, I don't just want to add quick fixes but entire improvements. Especially the Oil Crisis, I don't know what Panzer and co were smoking when they (didn't) plan that whole shebang. Fun fact, I had to add an event to get rid of the oil crisis ideas because initially the oil crisis went on forever.

 

[GoodWinSon]

 

[NuovoContenuto]

Welcome to my hell. Half the problems are caused by the spaghetti legacy code and the other half is from the Hoi4 AI's wet tissue paper constitution. "Most ambitious mod" I swear most of this mod was coded by primary school students.

Very relatable and strongly agree.

 

[Sooty Soot]

Very relatable and strongly agree.

Can you give us an update on your Italian/Triumvirate content?
@GoodWinSon By the way, can you explain why you made it so the Battle For Italy result in a detente instead of Italy joining a faction?

 

[NuovoContenuto]

Can you give us an update on your Italian/Triumvirate content?

Absolutely. I've managed to implement a lot of localisation for Italy, French State, and Free France. This will probably be one of the biggest localisation commits as of this time.

A lot of the mechanics planned for these nations have been implemented or are being worked on. This month, I've been working on mechanics for the French Civil War as well as the planned Italian-German War (this is for Red Italy).

All the lore/plans are basically done for Italy and almost the French State. It's mostly just a matter now of implementing these into the actual mod.

 

[NuovoContenuto]

A lot of the mechanics planned for these nations have been implemented or are being worked on.

I want to comment on this that I am being intentionally vague here as I'm still in the process of polishing a lot of these, I plan to disclose more information soon on what these mechanics are along with some images of the current implementation.

 

[Sooty Soot]

I want to comment on this that I am being intentionally vague here as I'm still in the process of polishing a lot of these, I plan to disclose more information soon on what these mechanics are along with some images of the current implementation.

Well to be honest I'd like if you kept us more updated on your work, I myself and GoodWinSon have had to go back and forth and backtrack with Dengist and Go4 Speer content because we didn't coordinate and keep each other in the loop.