Culture The Methodist Church split over same-sex marriage, explained - The church’s proposed splintering is one of the most drastic responses to marriage equality - Vox

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There are big changes coming to the spiritual home of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Hillary Clinton, and Elizabeth Warren.

The United Methodist Church, the second-largest Protestant denomination in the US, announced Friday a proposal to split after years of dispute over LGBTQ issues and marriage equality.

Church leaders revealed a plan that would divide its roughly 13 million members worldwide by creating a new “traditionalist Methodist” denomination that maintains a strict ban on ordaining LGBTQ clergy and same-sex marriage.

The proposal is the latest and perhaps most drastic development as religions have grappled with the increasing social acceptance of marriage equality and LGBTQ rights over the past several decades. The number of Americans who regularly attend church is sitting at its lowest point in decades, and millennials in the US are particularly turned off by anti-LGBTQ church doctrine.

According to Guthrie Graves-Fitzsimmons, an author and disillusioned former Methodist, tensions over queer issues have been increasing for decades, but really hit a key point at the church’s 2016 general conference. “There was a lot of hope then that the restricted anti-LGBTQ language would be removed from the Book of Discipline, which they’d been debating every four years since 1972, but instead of making a decision, they decided to form a special commission,” he told Vox. It was at that point that Graves-Fitzsimmons decided to leave the Methodist Church after having been a member of the denomination since childhood.

That special commission concluded with 53 percent of church leaders and lay people voting to tighten language on its same-sex marriage ban at a general conference last February, in a measure saying “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” It was a decision that made the plan to split all but inevitable.


“We tried to look for ways that we could gracefully live together with all our differences,” Louisiana-based Bishop Cynthia Fierro Harvey told the New York Times. After last year’s conference, “it just didn’t look like that was even possible anymore,” she said.

Each congregation will now hold a vote over whether to remain in the United Methodist Church or join the anti-LGBTQ splinter group. It’s expected that the majority of American congregations will choose to remain in the more liberal denomination, but Graves-Fitzsimmons is worried about how those congregation votes will affect LGBTQ parishioners.

“The sad part to me is that people will have to vote on a local level, which I think is incredibly harmful for LGBTQ people,” he said, pointing out that queer Methodists will essentially have their validity voted on by their neighbors. “This is in a local church. It’s much different when it’s at a global meeting.”

Religious leaders have struggled to adapt to changing social mores
To survive, churches must maintain a steady membership. The percentage of Americans who said they belong to a church, synagogue, or mosque hit a high of 76 percent in 1948 and has been in steady decline ever since, according to data from Gallup. In 2018, that number had declined to just 50 percent.

Methodist membership numbers, specifically, have declined every year since 1964. For example, average weekly church attendance in the US fell 3.3 percent in 2016 from the previous year. Unsettled questions over the church’s stance on LGBTQ people have only exacerbated the situation.

There are many reasons why Americans aren’t as religious as they used to be, but for many young people, the way their LGBTQ friends are treated by hard-line Christians and Catholics is often a motivator for leaving the church.

While the cultural approval of LGBTQ people had been slowly moving in a progressive direction for decades, the first civil unions for same-sex couples were allowed in Vermont in 2000, then marriage equality became state law in Massachusetts in 2004. From there, a steady drumbeat of court rulings and legislation expanded the right throughout much of the US before a Supreme Court required the remaining states to legalize marriage equality in 2015.

Church leaders have been forced to reconcile their own deeply held beliefs with a more accepting social environment, and the Methodist split is just the latest in a long series of church adaptations on queer issues.

The United Church of Christ was the first major Protestant denomination to take affirming action for LGBTQ people, allowing same-sex couples to get married in 2005, while the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America opened its doors to queer marriage in 2009, though it leaves the final decision up to each local minister.

In 2015, the Presbyterian Church USA voted to change its definition of marriage by amending its Book of Orders to say marriage is “between two people.” Seventy-one percent of church leaders voted in a general assembly to approve the change. Episcopalians followed suit in 2018, expanding the right of gay congregants to get married in all congregations.

While some Protestant denominations have taken steps to open their doors to their LGBTQ neighbors, more conservative strains of Christianity aren’t having much of those discussions. Pope Francis has drawn acclaim for saying “Who am I to judge gay people?,” but the Catholic Church has shown no sign of changing its strict anti-LGBTQ doctrine. In fact, the Vatican has rejected the entire notion of transgender people.

Similarly, the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the US, continues to marginalize LGBTQ congregants, with messages that have become culture-war talking points against queer rights — like homosexuality is not a “valid alternative lifestyle” and “gender identity is determined by biological sex and not by one’s self-perception.”

“The Southern Baptists and the Catholics are a long way off,” said Graves-Fitzsimmons of their LGBTQ acceptance. The Methodist split, he said, “will move us past this long, tumultuous period where there will be churches that welcome, affirm, celebrate the gifts of LGBTQ people. And there will be churches that don’t.” Ultimately, it will make clearer where people may find they belong.

Before coming to an agreement about separating, church leaders from the US, Europe, Africa, and the Philippines gathered in Washington, DC, for bargaining sessions last week. Negotiations also focused on ironing out financial differences, like how pensions and funding will be allocated to those congregations that will be leaving. The church’s worldwide conference, scheduled for May, still needs to approve the restructuring.

- End of Article -​

seems to be moreso whining about how christians hate the gays than anything else
 
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The UMC voted this past year to reaffirm the "traditional plan"- essentially fags out (of the clergy).

This new dustup from pastors I have spoken to seems to be extremely overblown and not representative of what is happening. Regardless of whatever comes, no final determinations can or will be made until the general conference later this year.
 
Don't have to tell me the topic of discussion is overblown when it's a Vox article.
 
IMHO, marriage should be between two consenting adults that you'd love. Man + woman, man + man, woman + woman. Marriage is a partnership governed by love and long term commitment.

What should be blasphemy is having a "marriage" that couldn't last at least two years, much less a day even. Barring certain circumstances such as death or abuse.
 
United Methodist Church To Split Over Whether Or Not To Be Christians

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NASHVILLE, TN—Leaders from the United Methodist Church have announced a tentative plan to split the church over differences on whether or not Methodists should be Christian or some sort of social group with a vague deist motif that makes up morality based on whatever it feels like.

“There was just no way to reconcile differences,” said Rev. Lloyd Patrick, one of those dismayed by the recent push by traditionalists to follow the Bible instead of each person’s own heart. “A lot of people still want to follow Jesus -- a person from 2000 years ago who made no statements about pronouns and thus has no relevance today -- which is just silly since we all know so much more now and have a better grasp on morality than a bunch of ancient people.”

Rev. Patrick went on to describe how Christian beliefs put an unnecessary burden on people, as they can lead to ridicule or even being canceled. “I guess they don’t have to worry about that in primitive places overseas,” Rev. Patrick said, “but we can’t be expected to deal with that in the U.S.”

While most of the U.S. Methodist churches are moving in a more modern direction, away from outdated beliefs like Christianity, it’s mainly in less developed nations in places like Africa that are still hung up on things like the Bible, necessitating the split. We got no statements from anyone there, though, as it didn’t seem worth listening to such unenlightened views.

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Babylon Bee has been hitting homeruns lately.
 
Honestly you don't have to look much further for an example of atheism and alternative religions rising in the west than articles like these.

Churches have been methods of control for as long as civilization has been founded. With the advent of the split of church and state and rapid information sharing where people can begin to confide with each other in secret and begin to question the teachings of their forefathers, they begin to realize a lot of these arbitrary laws really don't need to be followed or have any real-world implications. And rather than adapt, the church just decided to try marketing campaigns of religious death metal bands and other soulless corporate methods to attract a new audience. But obviously that isn't going to work.

Religion will never die, just look at the current political geoscape, it's basically become a complete religion now. But Christianity is beginning to show it's age.
 
"Marriage Equality." Underneath Christian belief, God gave man a woman so he expects man to follow His example. He is consistent and likes to show parallels.

Many scriptures speak about bearing fruit. Barreness in a woman was treated as an unfortunate curse. So, underneath God's law for the universe a fruit tree is to produce apples and a woman is to be able to have kids. Anything contrary to this is the unfortunate result of sin's corruption.

God acknowledges that man is weak and easily corrupted by sin spiritually, mentally, and physically. However, God still holds man accountable for it in the end. He will still purge sin from His universe. Anything against God's law is sin and the cost of sin is an existence without God which is death.

Christians who overcomplicate these things will have to answer to God why they felt the need to add on to His eternal law.
 
...And rather than adapt, the church just decided to try marketing campaigns of religious death metal bands and other soulless corporate methods to attract a new audience. But obviously that isn't going to work...

I'm always reminded of this when I hear the words "religious death metal." Sorry.

Personally, I have no stake in this game. Not Methodist. But religion as a whole has done some wonderful things, and some wonderfully terrible things throughout history. Its legacy of control in many parts of the world seems to be coming to an end. However, when people feel attacked for believing in something so specific, they tend to cling tighter to those beliefs and rituals, as it can be intrinsically tied to who they think they are as a human. No one wants to lose sense of self. Meh.
 
That special commission concluded with 53 percent of church leaders and lay people voting to tighten language on its same-sex marriage ban at a general conference last February, in a measure saying “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” It was a decision that made the plan to split all but inevitable.

Each congregation will now hold a vote over whether to remain in the United Methodist Church or join the anti-LGBTQ splinter group.

53%.

Splinter group.

Uh huh.
 
I'm always reminded of this when I hear the words "religious death metal." Sorry.

Personally, I have no stake in this game. Not Methodist. But religion as a whole has done some wonderful things, and some wonderfully terrible things throughout history. Its legacy of control in many parts of the world seems to be coming to an end. However, when people feel attacked for believing in something so specific, they tend to cling tighter to those beliefs and rituals, as it can be intrinsically tied to who they think they are as a human. No one wants to lose sense of self. Meh.
This entire thing has just kept the Dead Milkmen song "Methodist Coloring Book" on a loop in my head.

They're just going the way of the balkanized Lutheran Church, which isn't particularly surprising because there aren't too many differences other than a general old vs. new earth creationist bent.

Better to split, though, than compromise your faith if you actually believe it's a matter of heaven or hell. Trying to force cohesiveness during any type of schism has historically led to bad things.
 
From what I've told by others, a lot of this stuff comes from the pastors. The far left commie weirdos in college campuses have been influencing religious colleges for several decades, and it results in these kinds of splits.
 
One has to wonder how committed you are to your religion if your response to inconsistencies between the tenets of your religion and your personal moral values is to change your religion's tenets to accommodate your personal beliefs. If all you want is a religion that comfortably affirms everything you like, just go make your own a la L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith.
 
From what I've told by others, a lot of this stuff comes from the pastors. The far left commie weirdos in college campuses have been influencing religious colleges for several decades, and it results in these kinds of splits.
Christianity, in whatever flavor, has always been a boiling mass of hippy-dippy new age beliefs, even when the church was a monolithic political power and there was a lot more killing for Jesus going on. The Cathars would have been right at home with modern California crystal aficionados. I think it just seems more shrill now because it resonates with other sources of woke.
 
One has to wonder how committed you are to your religion if your response to inconsistencies between the tenets of your religion and your personal moral values is to change your religion's tenets to accommodate your personal beliefs. If all you want is a religion that comfortably affirms everything you like, just go make your own a la L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith.

That is what protestantism is. from Luther to the magesterial reformers, to radical reformers to today and the word of faith. Its that personal moral values which bred "Jesus and the disciples and david and jonathan are gay" and "god hates fags".

Notice what Pope Francis said, "it's not my place to judge a gay" and how difficult it is for Vox to understand what that means, whining about "the catholic church isn't allowing gay marriage and doesn't believe in trannyism". Homosexuality is sin and yet, God is merciful and understands that all people are sinners and need Pastoral Care via repentance and the eucharist, etc.

In the prot world, pastoral Care is the word that transgressives use to soften christian dogma. The whole theology is all backwards. the sinner needs to be happy and fulfilled, not healed, and the church is the place to find happiness, not salvation.


Christianity, in whatever flavor, has always been a boiling mass of hippy-dippy new age beliefs, even when the church was a monolithic political power and there was a lot more killing for Jesus going on. The Cathars would have been right at home with modern California crystal aficionados. I think it just seems more shrill now because it resonates with other sources of woke.



You're not wrong, one of the reasons for the decline of pederasty, child abandonment and the rise in the wellbeing of women was christianity's "imago Dei".
 
The whole theology is all backwards. the sinner needs to be happy and fulfilled, not healed, and the church is the place to find happiness, not salvation.

Right on the money. Note the quote from the article:
“The sad part to me is that people will have to vote on a local level, which I think is incredibly harmful for LGBTQ people,” he said, pointing out that queer Methodists will essentially have their validity voted on by their neighbors. “This is in a local church. It’s much different when it’s at a global meeting.”
Disagreement is "incredibly harmful", so lets just get the church council to change doctrine and force everyone else in line. Anything else would be invalidating!
 
One has to wonder how committed you are to your religion if your response to inconsistencies between the tenets of your religion and your personal moral values is to change your religion's tenets to accommodate your personal beliefs. If all you want is a religion that comfortably affirms everything you like, just go make your own a la L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith.

You have a point, but realistically speaking, religions always change over time, and often for the better, and they're never followed to the letter. (Not to imply that celebrating troons or whatever will necessarily make Christianity better.)
 
Can confirm SJWism has infiltrated much of the United Methodist Church. I stopped going a while ago when pro grievance culture sermons started happening more often than not and have been hesitant to go to a more tradition based church. This is good news to me. Maybe I'll look up if there's one that's actually about Jesus\God nearby.

IMHO, marriage should be between two consenting adults that you'd love. Man + woman, man + man, woman + woman. Marriage is a partnership governed by love and long term commitment.

What should be blasphemy is having a "marriage" that couldn't last at least two years, much less a day even. Barring certain circumstances such as death or abuse.
Cool. I actually like how some churches require marriage counseling and an interview before booking a wedding there.

If you want to get gay married, get the state or someone else who wants to do it. You aren't entitled to a Methodist wedding.
 
I'm always reminded of this when I hear the words "religious death metal." Sorry.

Personally, I have no stake in this game. Not Methodist. But religion as a whole has done some wonderful things, and some wonderfully terrible things throughout history. Its legacy of control in many parts of the world seems to be coming to an end. However, when people feel attacked for believing in something so specific, they tend to cling tighter to those beliefs and rituals, as it can be intrinsically tied to who they think they are as a human. No one wants to lose sense of self. Meh.
Many of the moral values people tend to view as religious are actually arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with the spiritual lessions taught in these books.

they much more have to do with ancient laws and rules of the societies of the time, and they often are deturpations of the original teachings done in order to control people, the old catholic church and modern caliphate regimens are great examples

that being said is obvious that the lack of "traditional" religion is not fufilling many of the essential needs a big part of society has towards believing and belonging, thats partially why with the deturpation of these "universal moral values" that are leading to the dimissal of religion in modern societies, we see the ressurgence of what I pretty much call "secular religion"

although I was raised in a religious family, I too don't have a horse in this particular game, I feel people should study for themselves the origins of their religion instead of being taught by other people interpreting it, if they think a split over their understandment of morality is the best compromise I have nothing else to say, and while I am naturally untrusting of anything that has to do with LGBT advocacy, the root of my dislike is ideological instead of moral (the use of Cancel Culture for example, that I would rather not see spread to the religious camp since it´s exactly the same shit the religious nuts did but done by different people), if they think this works, I´d hather have a live and let live approach to it.
 
You have a point, but realistically speaking, religions always change over time, and often for the better, and they're never followed to the letter. (Not to imply that celebrating troons or whatever will necessarily make Christianity better.)
True enough, change is inevitable over time, but methods of religious change vary. I think it's better to be a heretic than a schismatic, personally. These guys could be setting up their own Gay™ Methodist church (with gay blackjack and gay hookers) instead of causing division within the existing Methodist church. But that is not the progressive way.
 
Changing the values of the church will not get the Millenials attending. They'll rather have fake spirituality that doesn't challenge their values and sells them shit. It will also drive away actual believers because you make the establishment be a whore that wants acceptance.

Quoting a book is nearly always autistic, but I think this excerpt from Fahrenheit 451 is apt:
Christ is one of the 'family' now. I often wonder if God recognizes His own son the way we've dressed him up, or is it dressed him down? He's a regular peppermint stick now, all sugar-crystal and saccharine when he isn't making veiled references to certain commercial products that every worshiper absolutely needs
 
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