The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Emperor Julian]

They chose the number because it had religious importance to them. There is no evidence for it. At most less than 400k died in the camps. Now what do you base your statement on?

What's your soarce for this claim?

 

[Forgetful Gynn]

What's your soarce for this claim?

Red Cross. 271,000. Go ahead and copy paste the excuse that's made for it being wrong. You going to post your reasons or should I stop kidding myself?

also why are pretending that 6 million is the specific number and not just shorthand for the rough estimate? You can't seriously think people think it' s that a flat number?

So are they rounding down and lessening the tragedy or rounding up and giving fuel to extremists?

 

[Emperor Julian]

Red Cross. 271,000. Go ahead and copy paste the excuse that's made for it being wrong. You going to post your reasons or should I stop kidding myself?

I thought you didnt believe the red cross when they told you things about the Holocaust? What's the direct citation? I could look up the info of how the number was tallied up but the previous time I did that implies you'd just provide a rationale of why that doesnt count so why would I bother?

Also do you litterally believe the holocaust casualty list is really exactly 6 million? you understand that it's just shorthand right? You also understand that black death casualties probably were not exactly 200,000,000? You know their arnt litterally exactly seven point five billion people alive right?

 

[Doctor Placebo]

Red Cross. 271,000. Go ahead and copy paste the excuse that's made for it being wrong. You going to post your reasons or should I stop kidding myself?

So are they rounding down and lessening the tragedy or rounding up and giving fuel to extremists?

You do realize that there's a very similar issue with the death toll subscribed to Stalin and his regime, right? The number we hear thrown out all the time is 20 million, but the actual estimates vary wildly, and that's on the higher end. It's also very obviously rounded. It turns out that estimating massive death tolls that happened in the midst of a violent and chaotic conflict, while a totalitarian regime was trying to keep it quiet, is kind of hard to do. But by your logic we can make the same, lessening the tragedy or giving fuel to extremist argument for Stalin.

So by the same standard do you think that the deaths under Stalin didn't happen, or are grossly exaggerated? I'm not even asking this as a gotchya. You could argue that the numbers for both were inflated for political reasons.

Also, can you post a link to your Red Cross source?

 

[Forgetful Gynn]

I thought you didnt believe the red cross when they told you things about the Holocaust?

It was directly after the war, before the "holocaust" narrative about gassings in particular was invented.

What's the direct citation?

I could look up the info of how the number was tallied up but the previous time I did that implies you'd just provide a rationale of why that doesnt count so why would I bother?

Yeah that's more or less what I thought when you asked me for sources, but I was a good sport about it.

Also do you litterally believe the holocaust casualty list is really exactly 6 million? you understand that it's just shorthand right? You also understand that black death casualties probably were not exactly 200,000,000? Why did you even bring that up?

What is the exact number? Each researcher has their own ranges and estimates. Why do they settle on that number, a number which just happened to show up repeatedly before the war?

You do realize that there's a very similar issue with the death toll subscribed to Stalin and his regime, right? The number we hear thrown out all the time is 20 million, but the actual estimates vary wildly, and that's on the higher end. It's also very obviously rounded. It turns out that estimating massive death tolls that happened in the midst of a violent and chaotic conflict, while a totalitarian regime was trying to keep it quiet, is kind of hard to do. But by your logic we can make the same, lessening the tragedy or giving fuel to extremist argument for Stalin.

Entirely fair point. The difference is that I need not fear the loss of my job for saying it's possible that it was significantly less than 20 million. The only reason I ever fell into this rabbit hole is because I was not allowed to question the Holocaust in any way shape or form without being banned or fired. I had absolutely no motives other than trying to understand the truth when I began. I was still an obama-voting liberal back then.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

Wait, that didn't happen, dit it? Details?

Operation Keelhaul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TaimuRadiu]

It was directly after the war, before the "holocaust" narrative about gassings in particular was invented.

View attachment 1408809

Yeah, and directly after the war they didn't have much if anything to actually go on considering that it was directly after WW2. Like, Eisenhower literally taking footage of the death camps, the head Nazis admitting to it and being recorded doing so, and it showing up in Goebbels' diaries isn't enough for you?

 

[Forgetful Gynn]

Yeah, and directly after the war they didn't have much if anything to actually go on considering that it was directly after WW2.

It was based on death certificates the germans kept, which is about as official as you can get.

Like, Eisenhower literally taking footage of the death camps

What death camps did the US have access to? I thought only the ones the soviets found were considered "Death Camps"?

the head Nazis admitting to it and being recorded doing so

After extensive torture and having their families threatened, yeah.

and it showing up in Goebbels' diaries isn't enough for you?

That's new to me. Got something I can look at to see how good of a forgery it is?

 

[Emperor Julian]

It was directly after the war, before the "holocaust" narrative about gassings in particular was invented.

View attachment 1408809

Yeah that's more or less what I thought when you asked me for sources, but I was a good sport about it.

What is the exact number? Each researcher has their own ranges and estimates. Why do they settle on that number, a number which just happened to show up repeatedly before the war?

Entirely fair point. The difference is that I need not fear the loss of my job for saying it's possible that it was significantly less than 20 million. The only reason I ever fell into this rabbit hole is because I was not allowed to question the Holocaust in any way shape or form without being banned or fired. I had absolutely no motives other than trying to understand the truth when I began. I was still an obama-voting liberal back then.

Okay so what's the soarce for that one and why is it immune from later correction? Also what's your citation for the gassing being faked?

The documentation from 1979 shows the number of death certificates that had been issued for prisoners in 13 Nazi concentration camps. The number of death certificates represents only a fraction of the total death toll for various reasons, not in the least the source of that page-the ITS specifically stated as such

https://fullfact.org/online/holocaust-death-toll/

You didnt by any chance get the soarce from that shitty facebook article referenced in my link? Because they seem like spastics

There is no exact number for a number of practical reasons, history is chaotic so the number is rough estimate because a precise account is impossible. I'm unsure why you think it's viable to aquire a perfect count or how not doing so would discredit anything.

What's your citation for the number showing up before the war?

 

[Doctor Placebo]

Entirely fair point. The difference is that I need not fear the loss of my job for saying it's possible that it was significantly less than 20 million. The only reason I ever fell into this rabbit hole is because I was not allowed to question the Holocaust in any way shape or form without being banned or fired. I had absolutely no motives other than trying to understand the truth when I began. I was still an obama-voting liberal back then.

I'm in agreement about that. Denying or even celebrating Stalin's various genocides isn't exactly lauded in most places, but it's accepted. No other radical political beliefs are treated this way (well, except other brands of white nationalist, which all get lumped under the Nazi label anyway). I find the "Nazi exception to basic freedoms" quite troubling, especially since it's used as a loophole to silence whoever stands against the current zeitgeist by labeling them a Nazi or fascist (which are always equated until someone convincingly proves they don't hold Nazi beliefs, at which point the meaning of the word fascist gets expanded until it includes them).

However, whether holocaust revision should be allowed to be discussed is a separate issue from whether the holocaust happened and to what degree the common knowledge version of the event is accurate. I'm pretty firmly on the side that there was a large scale effort to exterminate the Jews in Nazi controlled territory in WW2, after the Nazis' half-hazard efforts to expel them failed, and that the top Nazi brass fully approved of it. Heinrich Himmler himself mentioned it in a private recorded meeting with SS officers.

Besides that, there's all the physical evidence the allied forces found, and it's in the dismissal of this that holocaust deniers reach way beyond 9/11 conspiracy theorists in terms of silliness. The sheer scale of the cover up would have to be absurd, and it's especially hard to believe nobody on the American side would blow the operation, since George Patton was no fan of Jews himself.

A former holocaust denier and French engineer also became a believer that it was the real deal after he personally visited the gas chambers for the purposes of debunking the holocaust. He went on to write a detailed book about his findings.

As for quibbling about the numbers, when it comes to subjects of mass genocide I find that to be largely a futile distraction.

 

[Forgetful Gynn]

Okay so what's the soarce for that one and why is it immune from later correction?

Which one? It's immune because of the amount of political weight put against the Red Cross or any group to tow the line.

Also what's your citation for the gassing being faked?

What's your citation for the electrocution chambers being faked?

The number of death certificates represents only a fraction of the total death toll for various reasons

How convenient. Glad someone out there knows the full, exact number of deaths, yet somehow we don't know the full, exact number of deaths.

You didnt by any chance get the soarce from that shitty facebook article referenced in my link? Because they seem like spastics

Nope.

There is no exact number for a number of practical reasons

Except we know it's above 300k.

I'm unsure why you think it's viable to aquire a perfect count or how not doing so would discredit anything.

So we can say it's 4 million? 2 million? What's the lowest acceptable figure?

What's your citation for the number showing up before the war?

Heinrich Himmler himself mentioned it in a private recorded meeting with SS officers.

I don't speak german so I can't accept at face value that the translation to english is accurate.

Besides that, there's all the physical evidence the allied forces found

US or Soviet?

The sheer scale of the cover up would have to be absurd

It becomes plausible if what people say about the Rothschild's wealth is true.

and it's especially hard to believe nobody on the American side would blow the operation, since George Patton was no fan of Jews himself.

And what a horrible coincidence that he did not live long after those statements. As for others, well, take Father Coughlin's experience as an example of what happens to those speaking "treasonous falsehoods" during wartime.

A former holocaust denier and French engineer also became a believer that it was the real deal after he personally visited the gas chambers for the purposes of debunking the holocaust. He went on to write a detailed book about his findings.

Good for him. Hopefully it was a preponderance of evidence that convinced him and not something more sinister.

As for quibbling about the numbers, when it comes to subjects of mass genocide I find that to be largely a futile distraction.

As do I.

 

[дядя Боря]

I agree with most of what you said but I do think there is evidence against all those being exterminated locally. If that were the case why were some elderly and children transported to camps by train? They were not suited for labor.

everyone is suited for labor. How old were those kiddos working in factories and mines of UK and US? ... and that's legit paying labor. Estimates put kids under 14 as 12-15%% in the concentration camps.

Behold entire village of Evminka that was sent to the concentration camp near Munich. The "crime" was living close to active partisan resistance zone, so they got sent off to work in Germany instead:

So we can say it's 4 million? 2 million? What's the lowest acceptable figure?

it's a fair question. 6 million is what was presented at Nuremberg trials of 45-46 and accepted by all major parties as the official number. It's a guestimate toward the charges of murdering Trump's Chosen People. million more or less, would not make a difference on a guilty verdict.

There are estimates of 4mil +, 5mil+ ... it's all over the board by estimates made since 1945. It's probably high-ish watermark.

The nuance is that not all 6mil were gassed and not all who were gassed were Trump's Chosen People. The number includes or may include various reasons of death, in some estimates people who died after the liberation were considered as victims as well.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

It was based on death certificates the germans kept, which is about as official as you can get.

What death camps did the US have access to? I thought only the ones the soviets found were considered "Death Camps"?

After extensive torture and having their families threatened, yeah.

That's new to me. Got something I can look at to see how good of a forgery it is?

After awhile, they were all "death camps," of a sort. Just like how the "doctors" in charge of the euthanasia centers kept killing retards until the very last day the Allied troops arrived, the SS kept killing undesireables because they could. You are probably a soft man whose only experiences with the truly insane, violent and demented might be via Kiwifarms. They were insane and blamed the people they were told to "guard" for the war, so why not engage in a bunch of spiteful killing at the very end?

There were many trix the Nazis did to say that they weren't actually killing them, like registering 10 000 people who died in one day as having "heart attacks."

If you cared enough to go back to the source materiel you can find Goebbels' diaries easily enough for yourself, as well as a recording of Himmler outright saying that the role of the SS in general was to kill the Jews - the Einsatzgruppen in particular. Unless you're going to say the Einsatzgruppen were good boys who dindu nuffin.

 

[Swiss46]

I don't speak german so I can't accept at face value tha

Might i suggest a helpful tool

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I see Gynn here is going to play the "I am going to set my skepticism about the Holocaust happening so high that nothing short of me personally seeing and counting every skeleton will satisfy me, and even then I'll probably just say they're all fake, but set my skepticism of the Holocaust having been a deliberate massive conspiracy so low that schizophrenic mood boards and unsourced quotes borrowed from the Protocols of Zion are ironclad evidence" game.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

The logistics required of such an event being true mean I'd probably turn into some weird shack dwelling conspiracy freak as history itself is no longer really provable and I cannot reliably confirm even the most basic details prior to my birth. It's roughly the equivelant of finding out that Phantom time hypothesis was correct.

You can just say "I'm not going to answer the question."

It doesnt just discredit the event it discredits history, to the point I'd wonder if the Soviet union won the cold war and just didnt bother telling anyone.

So.... who wants to tell him about the communist terrorist group being given free reign in most of America's major cities?

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

You can just say "I'm not going to answer the question."



So.... who wants to tell him about the communist terrorist group being given free reign in most of America's major cities?

1. Not liking the answer because it didn't stick to the limited binary you wanted doesn't mean it wasn't an answer.
2. Given the distinct lack of porkies swinging from lamp-posts, bombs going off, or really any kind of notable wide-scale violence in excess of a rowdy Superbowl celebration, these are exceptionally shit communist terrorists operating with free reign in America's major cities.

 

[ProgKing of the North]

They chose the number because it had religious importance to them. There is no evidence for it. At most less than 400k died in the camps. Now what do you base your statement on?

My niggerkike, rounding up your citizens in a camp where 400,000 of them died is still an absolutely shitcunt thing to do. Exaggerating the numbers would make the Jews look WORSE, sure, but it wouldn't make the Nazis any BETTER.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

1. Not liking the answer because it didn't stick to the limited binary you wanted doesn't mean it wasn't an answer.

There was no binary, the question was open-ended. I'm trying to point out the flaws inherent in official beliefs that become mandatory and how they resist revision, but nobody wants to talk about that I guess.

2. Given the distinct lack of porkies swinging from lamp-posts, bombs going off, or really any kind of notable wide-scale violence in excess of a rowdy Superbowl celebration, these are exceptionally shit communist terrorists operating with free reign in America's major cities.

Duh. They've deliberately patterned themselves off Antifa, the chucklefucks who convinced the Krauts that Hitler and pals were a good idea- LARPing as the meta-losers of history. Just because they suck at being communist terrorists doesn't mean they aren't communist terrorists.

 

[Forgetful Gynn]

Shoot, didn't see Taimu's post.

After awhile, they were all "death camps," of a sort.

Have they done away with the actual distinctions between internment camps and death camps? If so, that's new to me.

Just like how the "doctors" in charge of the euthanasia centers kept killing retards until the very last day the Allied troops arrived, the SS kept killing undesireables because they could.

The USA euthanized its fair share of retards as well. It was a fad in those times, the USA somewhat pioneered it, so it would be easy for people of the time to claim that the germans did it as well.

You are probably a soft man whose only experiences with the truly insane, violent and demented might be via Kiwifarms.

That'd be nice.

They were insane and blamed the people they were told to "guard" for the war, so why not engage in a bunch of spiteful killing at the very end?

Never really showed in their national character before. Some probably did, but they probably got punished quite badly for it.

There were many trix the Nazis did to say that they weren't actually killing them, like registering 10 000 people who died in one day as having "heart attacks."

So were they extremely competent or completely incompetent?

If you cared enough to go back to the source materiel you can find Goebbels' diaries easily enough for yourself, as well as a recording of Himmler outright saying that the role of the SS in general was to kill the Jews - the Einsatzgruppen in particular. Unless you're going to say the Einsatzgruppen were good boys who dindu nuffin.

Do you know of any records of any intercepted messages relating to the orders or daily tallies of mass murders that were deciphered with the enigma machine?

I see Gynn here is going to play the "I am going to set my skepticism about the Holocaust happening so high that nothing short of me personally seeing and counting every skeleton will satisfy me, and even then I'll probably just say they're all fake, but set my skepticism of the Holocaust having been a deliberate massive conspiracy so low that schizophrenic mood boards and unsourced quotes borrowed from the Protocols of Zion are ironclad evidence" game.

Oh no, I'm much less certain about it not happening than you appear to be of it happening. I don't trust victor's narratives on principle.

Given the distinct lack of porkies swinging from lamp-posts, bombs going off, or really any kind of notable wide-scale violence in excess of a rowdy Superbowl celebration,

Yet. They're growing bolder by the day as they get more and more federal support.

My niggerkike, rounding up your citizens in a camp where 400,000 of them died is still an absolutely shitcunt thing to do. Exaggerating the numbers would make the Jews look WORSE, sure, but it wouldn't make the Nazis any BETTER.

Agreed. But it's hard to argue that they intended for them to die, unless you can make a good argument that they intended to lose the war. Bungled it a bit, yes. But intended to lose? Hard to believe.