The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Stabmaster Arson]

I feel as though you couldn't explain combustion to a fire, Chugs. Give it a go, though, if you like.

None of them argue in good faith. As soon as things don't go their way they just change the subject, or start using appeals to authority, or bring out more forged papers, or my favourite from earlier "I have pictures that prove this but I can't bring myself to post them"

Among the deniers here, I actually prefer zo to lemming, bonehead, and I freakin love science JohnDoe.

No one likes you.

 

[Bonesjones]

according to mainstream historiography some cremas failed and most bodies were burned in the pits

from Hoess's memoir
View attachment 3534424

So the labor force documents are consistent with the witness testimonies but not with what revisionists believe (50 deaths per day during this period, a low enough body count to be easily handled by the crema)

"This guy said, these papers say, this other thing says this contradicting all of the above! I don't have an argument, I don't have any facts, I just grasp at straws!

See they used these super advanced crematory, so they could definitely burn as many bodies as we say, except they broke, so they used these old ones, except those didn't work, so they just burnt them in pits. What do you mean did I do the math to see if any of this is plausible. I just invent new arguments to stiffle yours, I don't need to take anything into account."

 

[Chugger]

Boner,

Actually I've always said (you can look back through my post history) that the stated crema capacities (eg in the Bischoff letter) were theoretical, and the majority were probably burned in pits.

Yes they were "state of the art", designed by Topf, the foremost company in this field. But the amount of corpses being fed into them was unprecedented, so whaddya know they weren't able to handle the load.

You're very dumb or delusional if you think there is something strange about this.

 

[Bonesjones]

Boner,

Actually I've always said (you can look back through my post history) that the stated crema capacities (eg in the Bischoff letter) were theoretical, and the majority were probably burned in pits.

Yes they were "state of the art", designed by Topf, the foremost company in this field. But the amount of corpses being fed into them was unprecedented, so whaddya know they weren't able to handle the load.

You're very dumb or delusional if you think there is something strange about this.

Lmao. Just dodge after dodge. You never answered any of my questions on how much weight you think these guys could move in a day, why is that? Are you ignorant of the basic human condition?

 

[Chugger]

You never answered any of my questions on how much weight you think these guys could move in a day, why is that?

I'm not an expert in human biology, but personally I believe I could carry a 100 pound sack 100 feet in about 30 seconds

So if I moved a 100 pound sack every minute, over an hour I would move 6000 pounds, and over a 10 hour shift I could move 48,000 pounds or 24 tons, assuming I was resting 20% of the time.

Do you see why this is a dumb question and that you've made the world dumber by making me answer it?

I'd be embarrassed to dodge any question put to me by a holocaust denier, but sometimes I have better things to do than entertain flat-earth levels of inanity

 

[Bonesjones]

I'm not an expert in human biology, but personally I believe I could carry a 100 pound sack 100 feet in about 30 seconds

So if I moved a 100 pound sack every minute, over an hour I would move 6000 pounds, and over a 10 hour shift I could move 48,000 pounds or 24 tons, assuming I was resting 20% of the time.

Do you see why this is a dumb question and that you've made the world dumber by making me answer it?

I'd be embarrassed to dodge any question put to me by a holocaust denier, but sometimes I have better things to do than entertain flat-earth levels of inanity

Ok now what can you do malnourished? How many days in a row can you do it? You honestly should have quoted 16 tons at me verbatim instead of acting like you've moved 100 pounds in your entire life.

It was such an easy trap for you to not fall into, that I even give you a solution to look at to not seem like an entire retard. You failed spectacularly and proved me right, yet again.

 

[Chugger]

Ok now what can you do malnourished? How many days in a row can you do it?

Find me any testimony where it says the sonderkommando doing this work were malnourished you flippin bonehead

They were fed remarkably well by camp standards, and this is part of mainstream history eg on wikipedia

But yeah I'm a decently big guy and they might be smaller, so only able to move 12 tons in a 10 hour shift with ample breaks. So what?

 

[mrolonzo]

View attachment 3532667

According to Mattogno in the month of May around 50 were dying each day, so why do you need 900 "stokers" working day and night for weeks on end?

they only needed to burn 2 bodies per hour man

One such job is specifically mentioned, "wood unloader"

View attachment 3534005

Everything still normal here, maybe even the opposite of suspicious? I wonder how much wood is necessary to burn 50 bodies in a state of the art crematory that uses coal.

There are number of different issues here, authenticity of sources, credibility of associated authors then, are these numbers about a labor ready group or a group doing actual work, plus of course add in all the ancillary duties. Not easy to parse out.

Zo, what do you think SS Officer Heinrich Kinna, in his letter to Himmler on 16 December 1942, meant when he said about Auschwitz that "according to the instructions of the RSHA, in contrast to the measures applied to Jews, Poles have to die a natural death." ("nach Anweisung des RSHA entgegen der bei den Juden angewendeten Maßnahme, Polen eines natürlichen Todes sterben müssen")

So the "measures applied to the Jews" did not entail a natural death for them. What does that mean to you?

Why did the foreman who was fitting gas-tight windows in crema 4 (hmmmm . .. . . ) refer to crema 4 as a "gas chamber" in his daily report (2 March 1943) https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust...sac/technique-and-operation/pressac0446.shtml

Kinna report is likely not authentic information given the various problems with it and its isolation from other documents.

Kremer's diary is a nice one too. In it he uses a self-evident code word "sonderaktion", but what does it mean? Revisionists think it is authentic, which is pretty dumb of them to be honest.

Here is an infograph I made laying out some of the arguments

View attachment 3534085

This stuff is pretty silly.

I'm bored so I'll write something up on this topic. I'm lucky enough to have spoken to an SS officer firsthand so I'd like to believe I have an ounce of credibility.

Was it real? Yes. Is it exaggerated in some manners? Yes. Do right-wingers and the like also downplay the horror it brought on white people and Europeans as a whole for some weird personal reasons, likely so that the Nazis can be a historical icon for them to look up to? Yes.

Mass murder generally doesn't work. The Jews were running rampant in Germany, spreading degeneracy throughout the Weimar Republic and responsible for so much disgusting shit that you see today in the west modernly. But Hitler wasn't a good answer or the solution. Hitler provided protections and special statuses to any Jews who gave him enough money or power, including the Rothschilds.

This part comes from the conversation I had with the officer along with my own research. A lot of the oven stuff is BS, but it was utilized to burn the bodies of those suspected of having diseases to help prevent the spread. The officer I spoke to was quite forward about how sadistic the whole system was and how much he regretted much of it. They had a system for how to starve them effectively, so they could extract the most labor for the least cost of food. They actually had some of the first grounded nutritional/caloric sciences in those labor camps. It was a very cynical, calculated starvation method to extract as much usefulness from them while also killing them.

And this didn't just effect Jews either. This hurt so many French, Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, you name it. Just anyone who was even mildly against the Nazi way. The Jews just love to fucking suck up all the spotlight. I think a lot of people want to like the Nazis because they are quite a hypnotic machine. Plus we technically have a common enemy in modern day globalism and the Jewish aristocracy running much of that globalist planning. But people have to remember that the Nazis in many aspects were just as globohomo.

The only way we can really make progress against the enemy modernly is by forging new paths, not lingering on the old failures. We have to learn from those mistakes as nationalist minded people and make new connections, new friends and new hopes. I guess in the end my opinion is, people need to stop mythologizing it so much from every side of the conversation and just look at it for what it was and move on. Stop the obsession.

This post is both evil and ignorant.

Zo, I am at least going to try to get you off this insane view that the camps were benign places.

According to Mattogno's own book, the majority of inmates in the concentration camps had died by 1943. How exactly can that be squared with a benign and humane camp system?

Before you say typhus, ask yourself why was the incidence of it and the death rate from it so high? It would not have been if there was a serious effort to preserve sanitary conditions and treat the infected. It was obviously due to massive neglect.

The system put in place is not equal to the results.

Neglect? Typhus was brought in and the garrison medic Dr Wirth was ordered to make typhus his sole concern on arrival in September 42.

What serious effort and when did you have in mind?

You're literally just pulling this out your hat as an excuse for a lack of gassed bodies.

The changes in 1943 on which Mattogno largely bases his book (more sleep, better food, health care) were expressly about more efficiently exploiting their labor force (the SS says it is not about "hypocritical sentimentality" for the well-being of the inmates, but about efficient use of labor for the war). But what about before 1943? If the Nazis were such sweethearts why did the majority of the inmates in the camps die, even on Mattogno's account?

Typhus.

Obviously, this is outside the purview of our main disagreement, regarding the fate of the majority of Jewish arrivals at Auschwitz who were not able-bodied (I, along with mainstream historians, say they were gassed). But I want to ask you again whether you think these camps were benign places with excellent health care for the inmates (slave laborers).

Yeeeaahh we know what these people say. That's just not real history. When 34 French historians declare that the holocaust happened because it happened we're not in the realm of honest inquiry. Much like you with your endless excuse making and black characterizations.

Also, if you get a chance answer my earlier question about the other document in which the foreman refers to air-tight gas windows in crema IV and calls crema IV a "gas chamber." And remind me of the Primo Levi quote you wanted me to share. I genuinely did not understand what you were referring to, but you kept mentioning how I am "hiding" this quote or whatever so please tell me what you are referring to so I can share it.

I simply asked you what Mattogno, who quotes him, had to say about it, since of course we're both operating from the same source that I gave you.

Anyway this guy, is that the window about 1.5 to 2m high that opens for le ebil SS man to pour his zyklon b canister in?

None of them argue in good faith. As soon as things don't go their way they just change the subject, or start using appeals to authority, or bring out more forged papers, or my favourite from earlier "I have pictures that prove this but I can't bring myself to post them"

No one likes you.

This is deliberate. They make a show of interest in discussion, but as can be seen here, their contempt is deep. This is born of a shock at the gall of us. In my experience some liberals and people of general ignorance instead of breaking through their ignorance will fight for that ignorance on behalf of all the "good " people.

 

[Bonesjones]

Find me any testimony where it says the sonderkommando doing this work were malnourished you flippin bonehead

They were fed remarkably well by camp standards, and this is part of mainstream history eg on wikipedia

View attachment 3534911

But yeah I'm a decently big guy and they might be smaller, so only able to move 12 tons in a 10 hour shift with ample breaks. So what?

Well fed by camp standards is a far cry from people who eat 4 or 5k calories a day, you retard. You know nothing that isn't told to you.

Probably because you are a big fat retard. Since you don't even know what level of exertion you are capable of, none the less, anyone else.

The song is a joke about a guy who can do herculean amounts of labor and still isn't capable of making money. Just like my endless toil at making fun of you.

This is deliberate. They make a show of interest in discussion, but as can be seen here, their contempt is deep. This is born of a shock at the gall of us. In my experience some liberals and people of general ignorance instead of breaking through their ignorance will fight for that ignorance on behalf of all the "good " people.

They are just a bunch of retarded college kids who are most likely JIDF agents. They are incapable of their own thoughts just reverting back to scripted sources ad nauseum.

They can't even imagine what kind of labor would be required of the stokers or loaders, they don't even try looking for alternative sources that could give them a rough estimate. They still lack any kind of overarching thesis, which is why they constantly switch between 3 different methods of disposal depending on which suits their need at the moment. Oblivous to the fact, even with all 3 working simultaneously, there are huge gaping flaws.

 

[mgc]

Zo,

Sigh. I think I am going to need to call it a night here again, if you still are going to cleave onto the idea that the camp system was benevolent, despite knowing (even per Mattogno) that as of 1943 the majority of the inmates in the camps had died, we are in the cuckoo's nest.

Yes, they did try to preserve their slave laborers at a higher rate in the final stage of the war (through the 1943 improvements in health care, rations, hygiene, etc,). But that does not prove benevolence on the Germans' part. Indeed, in the documents ordering these interventions, they were specifically disclaimed as being about a desperate nation's need to preserve labor more efficiently because it would help its war effort. It had nothing to do with concern for the well-being of the inmates, as Mattogno's own documents show.

And while I am willing to accept for argument's sake that these interventions also applied to Jewish slave laborers (as opposed to the vast majority of Jews who were not used for labor but killed on arrival), this is not even established in the documents.

Also noteworthy that you only accept the authenticity of documents you like, while dismissing out of hand damning documents referring to Krema 4 as a gas chamber and also Kinna's report referring to "measures applied to the Jews" at Auschwitz that result in them 'not dying a natural death'. In contrast, I am happy to accept the Mattogno documents you and he misinterpret are nevertheless genuine.

EDIT - Regarding Levi, you can read for yourself what Mattogno had to say about him. He accepts part of what Levi said (the part that suits him about health care given to Jewish slave laborers) while dismissing the part he does not like (Levi's testimony that non-able bodied Jews, including Jews who failed to recover from illnesses, were taken away and gassed). This kind of selective use of Levi as a completely reliable witness on health care at Monowitz but a complete liar when it comes to gassing, is outrageously biased.

Mattogno also fails to quote Levi's statement that health care was only given to working, Jews.

Mattogno quotes Levi as follows -

“Ka-Be is the abbreviation for infirmary. It is eight barracks, in every respect
similar to the others in the camp, but set apart by a rectangle. They hold at all
times one tenth of the camp population, but only a few stay there longer than
two weeks, and no one more than two months: within these limits, we must ei¬
ther die or recover. Those seen to be recovering are healed in the Ka-Be; those
failing to recover are sent to the gas chambers. ”

He leaves out the next sentence - "All this because we, fortunately, belong to the category of "economically useful Jews.""

On what intellectually serious basis can Mattogno completely accept Levi as a witness for the range of health care available in Auschwitz, while (implicitly) dismissing his claim that only economically useful Jews received health care, and also dismissing his claim that Jews at Auschwitz who could not work or recover were gassed?

 

[Chugger]

Well fed by camp standards is a far cry from people who eat 4 or 5k calories a day, you retard.

If extra calories for a few hundred workers was what it took to cover up the one of the greatest crimes in human history, you don't think the Germans would have splurged?

I think this is check and mate lol . if I didn't know how hopeless the revisionist position was, I'd be astonished by how easy it is to deal with your best arguments

 

[Bonesjones]

If extra calories for a few hundred workers was what it took to cover up the one of the greatest crimes in human history, you don't think the Germans would have splurged?

I think this is check and mate lol . if I didn't know how hopeless the revisionist position was, I'd be astonished by how easy it is to deal with your best arguments

No its more resources you have to account for ontop of daily camp statistics. I know you don't know anything about anything, but you prove it repeatedly with everything you say.

This isn't even an argument it pointing out holes in your own. Showing how lackluster and poorly thought out anything you do is.

You are a literal child in terms of thought process. When you hit a roadblock of not enough crematory to burn the amount roughly calculated, you just say "well burn more bodies at once". When that doesn't work, you pivot to something else, when that doesn't work, you again pivot, when that doesn't work you just start from the beginning in the hope to frustrate and annoy. It's painfully obvious and unfortunately for you I can do this forever.

 

[Chugger]

No its more resources you have to account for ontop of daily camp statistics.

if the average worker at Auschwitz received 1500 calories worth and there were 100,000 workers, they would need to be fed 150 mil calories per day. the 900 sonderkommando might use an extra 3000 each, so we are looking at an extra 2.7 mil. that's 1.8% extra, and only for a few months since this amount of workers were basically only needed during the summer of 44 for the hungarian deportation.

That's the adjustment you need to see? 1.8% more food supplies during the summer of 44? Given the fragmentary records that exist this is not a reasonable expectation, unless you are a buffoon grasping at the smallest straws known to man

You are a literal child in terms of thought process. When you hit a roadblock of not enough crematory to burn the amount roughly calculated, you just say "well burn more bodies at once". When that doesn't work, you pivot to something else, when that doesn't work, you again pivot, when that doesn't work you just start from the beginning in the hope to frustrate and annoy. It's painfully obvious and unfortunately for you I can do this forever.

Actually I've always said the same thing about the crematories and pits at Auschwitz, but you're free to look through my posts and prove me wrong.

You're just babbling because you have no real argument. but keep on doing it, I'm sure it's amusing for everyone

 

[Male Idiot]

Remember the Six Gorillion, Goyim. It is the meaning of your existence, the sun of your truth, the eternal source of reparations, the name of the leash.

The Six Gorillion is the greatest truth in the universe, so big, nobody can disbelieve it.

 

[mrolonzo]

Zo,

Sigh. I think I am going to need to call it a night here again, if you still are going to cleave onto the idea that the camp system was benevolent, despite knowing (even per Mattogno) that as of 1943 the majority of the inmates in the camps had died, we are in the cuckoo's nest.

Benevolent? Didn't I explain the position in detail?

Is it more clarity you're after?

Yes, they did try to preserve their slave laborers at a higher rate in the final stage of the war (through the 1943 improvements in health care, rations, hygiene, etc,). But that does not prove benevolence on the Germans' part. Indeed, in the documents ordering these interventions, they were specifically disclaimed as being about a desperate nation's need to preserve labor more efficiently because it would help its war effort. It had nothing to do with concern for the well-being of the inmates, as Mattogno's own documents show.

No they tried from the start obviously. It took time to get facilities up to scratch.

And while I am willing to accept for argument's sake that these interventions also applied to Jewish slave laborers (as opposed to the vast majority of Jews who were not used for labor but killed on arrival), this is not even established in the documents.

No one was killed on arrival. We've been through that.

No distinction is made in documents, it's just another cope your side made up.

Also noteworthy that you only accept the authenticity of documents you like, while dismissing out of hand damning documents referring to Krema 4 as a gas chamber and also Kinna's report referring to "measures applied to the Jews" at Auschwitz that result in them 'not dying a natural death'. In contrast, I am happy to accept the Mattogno documents you and he misinterpret are nevertheless genuine.

By that standard every document is legitimate. The standards are coherence with other documents, relevant language and grammar of the actual German military, actual origins, not being a copy of a copy, not being from somebody after the war who could face pressure.

As for krema 4, you don't really get what you're talking about in this matter.

EDIT - Regarding Levi, you can read for yourself what Mattogno had to say about him. He accepts part of what Levi said (the part that suits him about health care given to Jewish slave laborers) while dismissing the part he does not like (Levi's testimony that non-able bodied Jews, including Jews who failed to recover from illnesses, were taken away and gassed). This kind of selective use of Levi as a completely reliable witness on health care at Monowitz but a complete liar when it comes to gassing, is outrageously biased.

It's possible for Levi to know about aspects of healthcare, having possibly seen various elements. Everything else is mere rumour reportage passed off as fact. This occurred alot in the subsequent tales. That's not bias. It's common sense.

Mattogno also fails to quote Levi's statement that health care was only given to working, Jews.

Mattogno quotes Levi as follows -

“Ka-Be is the abbreviation for infirmary. It is eight barracks, in every respect
similar to the others in the camp, but set apart by a rectangle. They hold at all
times one tenth of the camp population, but only a few stay there longer than
two weeks, and no one more than two months: within these limits, we must ei¬
ther die or recover. Those seen to be recovering are healed in the Ka-Be; those
failing to recover are sent to the gas chambers. ”

He leaves out the next sentence - "All this because we, fortunately, belong to the category of "economically useful Jews.""

On what intellectually serious basis can Mattogno completely accept Levi as a witness for the range of health care available in Auschwitz, while (implicitly) dismissing his claim that only economically useful Jews received health care, and also dismissing his claim that Jews at Auschwitz who could not work or recover were gassed?

Easily. Levi never saw any such gas chambers. He could easily have seen healthcare facilities. Thus the vague notions about economics/recovery/ gas chambers.

Again, run twist and turn all you like. There's no actual hard evidence and it doesn't fit in all the ways mentioned before that still stand uncontested. No distinction is ever made and Jews were being released in any case.

Basically your notions, your suspicions, are nothing more than that and your theory is defeated from a number of different angles. This is upsetting to people like you. Thus the continued snark and insult.

 

[mgc]

Easily. Levi never saw any such gas chambers.

But Levi could and did observe that the people treated in the hospital were all working Jews, excluding the vast majority who were never selected for labor. And he also knew that slave laborers who could not recover in the hospital were taken away and never seen again.

For Mattogno to rely on Levi for the existence of health care on Auschwitz but dismiss his other testimony (that only working Jews got treatment, that those who could not recover were taken away and killed) is an obvious sign of bias.

 

[mrolonzo]

if the average worker at Auschwitz received 1500 calories worth and there were 100,000 workers, they would need to be fed 150 mil calories per day. the 900 sonderkommando might use an extra 3000 each, so we are looking at an extra 2.7 mil. that's 1.8% extra, and only for a few months since this amount of workers were basically only needed during the summer of 44 for the hungarian deportation.

That's the adjustment you need to see? 1.8% more food supplies during the summer of 44? Given the fragmentary records that exist this is not a reasonable expectation, unless you are a buffoon grasping at the smallest straws known to man

Actually I've always said the same thing about the crematories and pits at Auschwitz, but you're free to look through my posts and prove me wrong.

You're just babbling because you have no real argument. but keep on doing it, I'm sure it's amusing for everyone

The thing is, this sonderkommados got extras thing, is just something people have said in order to fit the story they already decided they want to tell. There's already a creditable supply system even in the early years of the camp. The problem was hygiene, living space, running water and besides the nazis were not about cruelty.

Addendum- if you think on it, it doesn't make sense anyway. You've got a very busy place, increasingly, so. Yet you want to bifurcate rations? How does that help order in the camp? You'll have a riot on your hands in no time.

But Levi could and did observe that the people treated in the hospital were all working Jews, excluding the vast majority who were never selected for labor. And he also knew that slave laborers who could not recover in the hospital were taken away and never seen again.

For Mattogno to rely on Levi for the existence of health care on Auschwitz but dismiss his other testimony (that only working Jews got treatment, that those who could not recover were taken away and killed) is an obvious sign of bias.

No it's just rationality. Facilities existed, they're backed by documents of the time.

Generally our rational approach works because the documents fit with the established physical results I.e. lack of bodies, blue on walls etc. Everything else is hearsay and conjecture, even from nazis

 

[Chugger]

Addendum- if you think on it, it doesn't make sense anyway. You've got a very busy place, increasingly, so. Yet you want to bifurcate rations? How does that help order in the camp? You'll have a riot on your hands in no time.

lol you really betrayed your numnuts nature with this one. they were kept separate from the general labor population for obvious reasons

 

[mrolonzo]

lol you really betrayed your numnuts nature with this one. they were kept separate from the general labor population for obvious reasons

To the extent they're kept separate would be for various reasons. Hygiene. Living space. Plus of course, extras are extras. Giving extras is bad for camp morale and therefore order. Moreover, this notion that they were kept apart because they held a great secret is the usual fantasy nonsense we see again and again from the stories. On that note, I should probably post some of these stories...

I hope you don't mind but I may have to use control v for these.

 

[Chugger]

Moreover, this notion that they were kept apart because they held a great secret is the usual fantasy nonsense

are you saying if the gassings were real the Germans wouldn't have tried to keep them apart for this reason?

I hope you don't mind but I may have to use control v for these.

no lol you can quote sources, it's just stupid when you quote arguments, but you haven't been doing that as much. GJ