The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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So they're non employable in what fashion? Being young or old? Sick? And most Jews are either young old or sick?
Yes. but if they wanted they could have employed more of them. The 200,000 Poles resettled from Zamosc were placed into camps including the children who even had their own camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ

There's no evidence of anything like this existing for the millions of resettled Jews.

The Jews morale. It would be rather upsetting and cause an uproar and disorder which is against orders. In fact the camp commandant would have to be notified.

Are you now talking about this pledge for camp guards? Do you remember what I said about it?

“I am aware that only the Führer may decide upon the life and death of an enemy of the state. I may not physically harm or kill any opponent of the state (inmate). Any killing of an inmate in a concentration camp requires the personal authorization of Reichsführer SS [Himmler]. I am also aware that any violation of this pledge will be inexorably accounted for. CC Auschwitz, [day missing] November 1943."

I gave you a hint in bold. Your logic only works if the orthodox view is Himmler had nothing to do with the Holocaust.
 
Levi "even surgeries requiring a high surgical standard were performed, above all those involving penetration of the body wall such as gastroenteroanastomosis for duodenal ulcers, appendectomies, rib resectioning for emphysema, as well as orthopedic interventions for fractures and sprain."

Okay, so able-bodied Jews (which is who he is specifically talking about) could be treated for fractures and sprains, ulcers, and emphysema. I do not see how this disproves the extermination of the non-able bodied. One can fracture for example a knee cap or a finger and still work with casting. Someone who has suffered from ulcers can work.
 
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And now, a musical interlude.


Other people were fucked with too
But all you care about is you
Faggots, gypsies, others too
But you just want people to care about you

Hogging up
Hogging up the fucking holocaust [x4]

You're as greedy with money as you are with guilt
So you had a holocaust memorial built
Not that I care about other people or races
But I'm sick of your fucking whining faces

Hogging up
Hogging up the fucking holocaust [x4]
 
Another quote from Primo Levi (which, to correct a mistake I earlier made in this post, Mattogno did share in his book, though he cut the critical final sentence) -

"Those who show signs of improvement are cured in Ka-Be [Note, this stands for Krankenbau, or the camp infirmary], those who seem to get worse are sent from Ka-Be to the gas chambers. All this because we, fortunately, belong to the category of "economically useful Jews.""

How can you rely on him for the part of his testimony you like and dismiss the part of his testimony you do not like?
 
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How can you rely on him for the part of his testimony you like and dismiss the part of his testimony you do not like?
How can you not understand basic physical law and call yourself an academic? How can you spend weeks talking about the holocaust and not do basic back of a napkin math to figure out if your claims are even possible? How can you trust someone when they say the sky is blue but distrust them when they say they can turn your 500 dollars into 5 million? How can we even know anything? So many questions we will never know the answer for.
 
So you think Levi's testimony, that able-bodied Jews with “Illnesses of the stomach and digestive tract" were told to fast for 24 hours, had their diet adjusted, and were given 3-4 Tannalbin pills (which would cost about 1 dollar and 50 cents today, see https://www.homoempatia.eu/product/tannalbin-tabletten.59055.html?language_code=en), disproves the Holocaust?

Also, why do you believe Primo Levi on his testimony about health care methods at Auschwitz while disbelieving him about exterminations of the non-able bodied Jews?

Yes. It destroys the worked to death meme as well as the intent to kill.

Because he may well have seen the healthcare.

Yes. but if they wanted they could have employed more of them. The 200,000 Poles resettled from Zamosc were placed into camps including the children who even had their own camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ

There's no evidence of anything like this existing for the millions of resettled Jews.



Are you now talking about this pledge for camp guards? Do you remember what I said about it?

“I am aware that only the Führer may decide upon the life and death of an enemy of the state. I may not physically harm or kill any opponent of the state (inmate). Any killing of an inmate in a concentration camp requires the personal authorization of Reichsführer SS [Himmler]. I am also aware that any violation of this pledge will be inexorably accounted for. CC Auschwitz, [day missing] November 1943."

I gave you a hint in bold. Your logic only works if the orthodox view is Himmler had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

Right so I ask you about what you claim about able bodies and what not, you tell me about 200000 Poles.

Right. So killing i.e. execution is the preserve of Himmler and /or Hitler and brutality is completely out of his role. He literally can't lay a finger without express written permission. Moreover, even corporal punishment requires signed statements, counter signed by medical staff for each individual inmate. Furthermore the punishment is lashes to the lower legs between 10 and 50 times where bare flesh is not allowed to be exposed.

So..no brutality and certainly no murder. It's logically going to harm morale, create disorder and is against orders in any case.

Levi "even surgeries requiring a high surgical standard were performed, above all those involving penetration of the body wall such as gastroenteroanastomosis for duodenal ulcers, appendectomies, rib resectioning for emphysema, as well as orthopedic interventions for fractures and sprain."

Okay, so able-bodied Jews (which is who he is specifically talking about) could be treated for fractures and sprains, ulcers, and emphysema. I do not see how this disproves the extermination of the non-able bodied. One can fracture for example a knee cap or a finger and still work with casting. Someone who has suffered from ulcers can work.

Right. Most Jews are not disabled. Like any other race.


Another quote from Primo Levi (which, to correct a mistake I earlier made in this post, Mattogno did share in his book, though he cut the critical final sentence) -

"Those who show signs of improvement are cured in Ka-Be [Note, this stands for Krankenbau, or the camp infirmary], those who seem to get worse are sent from Ka-Be to the gas chambers. All this because we, fortunately, belong to the category of "economically useful Jews.""

How can you rely on him for the part of his testimony you like and dismiss the part of his testimony you do not like?

What does Mattogno say about it? Why didn't you quote Mattogno?
 
I think we are close to an impose here zo. But I have a final question.

Can you explain what is logically contradictory about the Nazis wanting to kill economically useless Jews but also wanting to keep employable Jewish slave laborers alive (including by giving primitive food, lodging, and health care to them) so long as they could be useful for the war effort?

You seem to think this is an absurdity but I honestly do not see why: if you had two goals, winning the war and killing the Jews (in that order), that is what you would do. Even if this meant performing a “surgical” procedure, eg stitching a wound, if doing so allowed an able bodied Jew to get back to work on war related output it would make sense.

Regarding working to death, we have many documents ordering just that fate for the Jews, including the Sept 1942 Thierack document I posted yesterday referring to “extermination through labor” for Jews and the Wannsee protocols from early 1942. I am out of my flat now but

I think part of your confusion is that you are assuming German slave-labor policy and labor needs were the same throughout the war when clearly these things changed. When those needs did change more effort was put into preserving able bodied Jews for a longer period of time.
 
I think we are close to an impose here zo. But I have a final question.

Fascinating.

Can you explain what is logically contradictory about the Nazis wanting to kill economically useless Jews but also wanting to keep employable Jewish slave laborers alive (including by giving primitive food, lodging, and health care to them) so long as they could be useful for the war effort?

There is nothing contradictory about it. It just isn't logical or evidenced. In fact the evidence is the opposite. Violence towards inmates was strictly prohibited. Gassing is objectively injurious to the person. Therefore its against orders. Moreover if even corporal punishment requires established procedure with careful evaluation of the case for each individual then mass murder requires a mountain of paperwork. Plus a reason has to be stressed for the punishment and therefore for the execution. Plus of course names, dates, religion. Medical input.

And you've forgot about all the basic hurt feelings that would result.
Are you aware that people don't generally like seeing their relatives killed?

You seem to think this is an absurdity but I honestly do not see why: if you had two goals, winning the war and killing the Jews (in that order), that is what you would do. Even if this meant performing a “surgical” procedure, if doing so allowed an able bodied Jew to get back to work on war related output it would make sense.

You're basically saying the SS went to all the trouble of fixing people who they planned to murder later. Utter nonsense. Especially when they're already moving Jews all around to places like Dachau and thus further out the reach of your stupid gas chambers.

Regarding working to death, we have many documents ordering just that fate for the Jews, including the Sept 1942 Thierack document I posted yesterday referring to “extermination through labor” for Jews and the Wannsee protocols from early 1942. I am out of my flat now but

I think part of your confusion is that you are assuming German slave-labor policy and labor needs were the same throughout the war when clearly these things changed. When those needs did change more effort was put into preserving able bodied Jews for a longer period of time.

You certainly think you have admissions of intent to work to kill. That's about it. Further the practice is proven to be the complete opposite. One does not give rest days, production bonuses and excellent healthcare to those they're trying to work to death. That point in particular is categorically refuted. As for the things changed meme the only thing that actually changed over the years was the rumours and propaganda subsequent to the war which were tracked in detail to show the development of absolute lies into established "facts".
 
You're basically saying the SS went to all the trouble of fixing people who they planned to murder later. Utter nonsense. Especially when they're already
Yes. Because the most immediate priority was using them as labor for the war. If they were usable for the purpose, they would invest in (cheap and primitive) health care and food and lodging for them. (I presume you have seen pictures of the living quarters of Birkenau inmates, would you consider these anything but primitive?)

If they were sick but otherwise able bodied, they were not killed, but could get some time to recover and even get primitive health care to help them recover. Why? Because the Nazis wanted them to work for their war effort. War production was so important by 1943 and 1944 that it could even buy a (temporary) reprieve for able bodied Jews.

As Mattognos own source Primo Levi says, only “economically useful” Jews (ie Jews who could be put to work in the camp) were given health care. The vast majority were deemed incapable of work and gassed at arrival. Levi also says that if the Jewish patients receiving health care did not recover, they were gassed.

Re demoralization, People are also demoralized when they are enslaved. The Nazis were not interested in the psychological well being of the Jews. The threat of brutal corporal punishment for “slacking” (which even mattogno acknowledges) was enough to keep the slaves working.

Re working to death I am not going to repeat my full point again, reread my posts. I have provided explicit documentary proof that, in 1942, german officials ordered able bodied Jews to be worked to death. You will claim “forgery” because you cannot emotionally handle the truth about the Nazis, but the proof is there in explicit detail.

What about later in the war? I have mentioned that German labor needs and labor policies changed throughout the war. Suffice it to say that, as even mattogno acknowledges, death rates were sky high in the concentration camps (the large majority of all slave laborers, not just Jews, had died) when the SS higher ups intervened to improve ‘labor efficiency’ in 1943.

As a side note, it is interesting how these 1943 requested improvements in food, sleep, health care, etc, which mattogno based his book on, were justified (in the documents he cites) only in terms of labor efficiency. If all Jews were fed and given health care (your interpretation), that justification makes no sense. After all only a small minority of Jews deported to Auschwitz were employed as slave laborers.

Re “excellent health care”, surgeries were also performed in the gulags. Would you say Stalinist gulags had excellent health care?
 
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Right. So killing i.e. execution is the preserve of Himmler and /or Hitler and brutality is completely out of his role. He literally can't lay a finger without express written permission. Moreover, even corporal punishment requires signed statements, counter signed by medical staff for each individual inmate. Furthermore the punishment is lashes to the lower legs between 10 and 50 times where bare flesh is not allowed to be exposed.

So..no brutality and certainly no murder. It's logically going to harm morale, create disorder and is against orders in any case.
Where does it say written anything in that pledge? You're a gibbering ninny.

Right so I ask you about what you claim about able bodies and what not, you tell me about 200000 Poles.
I brought up the employed Polish children to show they could have done this with the Jews, but they didn't.
 
Where does it say written anything in that pledge? You're a gibbering ninny.


I brought up the employed Polish children to show they could have done this with the Jews, but they didn't.

Oh ok. Well, the record shows that this sort of thing i.e. Courts, trials, executions, corporal punishment is written down in triplicate.

But in your special case non of this applies. Ok.

Got a record of phone call? Let's say it's 1941, and Himmler calls the camp commandant Hoss and says "Hoss!! Unser Panser divisionen are tearing across the volga!!!
Jetzt ist der zeig !! Gas all 3 million of der judenschwine bestimmt!! Schnell!!!

After all, Hoss literally confessed to killing 3 million right!

No? No specific, detailed, pertinent and timely record? Oh dear.


Of course !! They could have done x, y and z with the Jews but didn't. Thus gas chambers. Never mind anything else. Is that it?


Yes. Because the most immediate priority was using them as labor for the war. If they were usable for the purpose, they would invest in (cheap and primitive) health care and food for them.

Wanting your Jews to work for the war doesn't mean you want to kill them later, everyone in Europe was working for the war. Everyone in Europe was on rations. Your clear bias is on display.
Surgery isn't cheap and primitive. Neither was Vhf technology. Or laboratories.

If they were sick but otherwise able bodied, they were not killed, but could get some time to recover and even get primitive health care to help them recover. Why? Because the Nazis wanted them to work for their war effort. War production was so important by 1943 and 1944 that it could even buy a (temporary) reprieve for able bodied Jews.

Why mention primitive again? Your clear bias is on full display.

There's nothing wrong with getting Jews to work for the war. There was no such thing as temporary reprieve.


As Mattognos own source Primo Levi says, only “economically useful” Jews (ie Jews who could be put to work in the camp) were given health care. The vast majority were deemed incapable of work and gassed at arrival. Levi also says that if the Jewish patients receiving health care did not recover, they were gassed.

Primo Levi wasn't gassed either and saw only what he could see. The rest was the rumour mill. Why didn't you quote Mattogno like I asked you to? Do you have something to hide?


Re demoralization, People are also demoralized when they are enslaved. The Nazis were not interested in the psychological well being of the Jews. The threat of brutal corporal punishment for “slacking” (which even mattogno acknowledges) was enough to keep the slaves working.


Another lie. The nazis were interested in psychological wellbeing. Thus amenities. Thus good treatment. Thus preventing brutality.


Re working to death I am not going to repeat my point again, reread it, I have provided explicit documentary proof that, in 1942, german officials ordered Jews worked to death.



I also mentioned that German labor needs and labor policies changed throughout the war. Suffice it to say that, as even mattogno acknowledges, death rates were sky high in the concentration camps (the large majority of all slave laborers, not just Jews, had died) when the SS higher ups intervened to improve ‘labor efficiency’ in 1943.

I disproved your stupid interpretation by pointing out actual practices backed by original documents. Repeat your rubbish all you like. What I showed trumps what you showed.
Labor needs didn't change at all. The need to make extra effort to keep them alive did as per the conditions.


As a side note, it is Ieresting how these 1943 requested improvements in food, sleep, etc, which mattogno based his book on, were justified (in the documents he cites) only in terms of labor efficiency.



If all Jews were fed and given health care (your interpretation), that makes no sense. After all only a small minority of Jews were laborers at Auschwitz.


Indeed. Is there some other pertinent reason to direct Reich resources other than efficiency? Were the jews not being fed at all?

Only a small number of Jews were workers. Yet no distinction was made. Everyone was fed and treated according to need. Not on religion. Not on work ability. No document details any such thing. Why though? It's simple. Starving some while feeding others is inefficient, disorderly, destroys morale and rather upsetting, when grandma can't have soup but you can. This seems to baffle you that nazis like anyone else would want everyone to get along.


Re “excellent health care”, surgeries were also performed in the gulags. Would you say Stalinist gulags had excellent health care?

Surgery is the highest form of health care. So to the extent that facilities had surgical departments then yes. Of course. Unless this surgery was sub par and deliberately so. Is that it?
 
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Okay so Zo has agreed—as he must, to be logically consistent— that health care in the gulags was excellent and that the gulags as well as pic related were benign places. That is actually crazy so I think I will check out of this thread for tonight.

In closing though let me quote one of Mattogno's documents (from 26 Oct 1943, quoted on page 115), which talks about the need to improve living standards including health care in the camps.

This quotation is about all camp inmates, and does not mention Jews. But Mattogno's implicit assumption is that it also refers to Jewish inmates admitted to the Auschwitz camp. Let us take his assumption as true, for the sake of argument.

I quote -

"[N]ow the working strength of the inmates is important, and all measures of the commandants, the heads of Office and the doctors must chiefly focus on maintaining the health and the productivity of the inmates. Not from hypocritical sentimentality, but because we need their arms and legs, because they have to contribute to the German people achieving a great victory. For this we need to take to heart the welfare of the inmates."

Thus, the document calling for "health care at Auschwitz" is explicitly about war production and maintaining the "Productivity" of the labor force. The document explicitly rejects the idea of "sentimentality" about the well-being of inmates being a motive.

Thus this document—along with the testimony of Primo Levi, which Mattogno also uses, though he does not quote Levi's statement that only "economically valuable Jews" were given health care—contradicts the idea that non-working Jews (the vast majority) were given health care. Instead, health care was used to "maintain the health and productivity" of working Jews.

Adolf Hitler himself, in his 17 April 1943 conversation with the Hungarian regent Horthy, made it clear what German policy was concerning non-able bodied Jews. Speaking of the fate of the Polish Jews, Hitler declared "If they could not work, they had to perish."
 

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Okay so Zo has agreed—as he must, to be logically consistent— that health care in the gulags was excellent and that the gulags as well as pic related were benign places. That is actually crazy so I think I will check out of this thread for tonight.

In closing though let me quote one of Mattogno's documents (from 26 Oct 1943, quoted on page 115), which talks about the need to improve living standards including health care in the camps.

This quotation is about all camp inmates, and does not mention Jews. But Mattogno's implicit assumption is that it also refers to Jewish inmates admitted to the Auschwitz camp. Let us take his assumption as true, for the sake of argument.

I quote -

"[N]ow the working strength of the inmates is important, and all measures of the commandants, the heads of Office and the doctors must chiefly focus on maintaining the health and the productivity of the inmates. Not from hypocritical sentimentality, but because we need their arms and legs, because they have to contribute to the German people achieving a great victory. For this we need to take to heart the welfare of the inmates."

Thus, the document calling for "health care at Auschwitz" is explicitly about war production and maintaining the "Productivity" of the labor force. The document explicitly rejects the idea of "sentimentality" about the well-being of inmates being a motive.

Oh no! They weren't justifying their good treatment in nice enough ways! Thus gassing.

Thus this document—along with the testimony of Primo Levi, which Mattogno also uses, though he does not quote Levi's statement that only "economically valuable Jews" were given health care—contradicts the idea that non-working Jews (the vast majority) were given health care. Instead, health care was used to "maintain the health and productivity" of working Jews.

This is the third time ive asked. Why don't you quote Mattogno here?

Adolf Hitler himself, in his 17 April 1943 conversation with the Hungarian regent Horthy, made it clear what German policy was concerning non-able bodied Jews. Speaking of the fate of the Polish Jews, Hitler declared "If they could not work, they had to perish."

Oh no! Not the Horthy question!?

Everyone, post if they want to hear about this. Mattogno deals with it in detail.

Anyway,


1 Literally agrees that surgery is the highest form of health care.

2. Then states that the gulags had surgery.

3. But goes mad that I agree and myself assert that these places constitute a benign environment, though lesser, obviously, especially compared to gassing everyone.

4. Then posts a photo of warm thin men bunking together to make you cry.
 
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Everyone, post if they want to hear about this. Mattogno deals with it in detail.
I understand you can pull out Mattogno or link back to Codoh threads, but are you able to answer a question without using ctrl v? I bring up this question because I don't think it's been answered by revisionists before

From the labor force documents Mattogno utilizes in 'Auschwitz: Open-Air Incinerations'

1658874914707.png


Why were 900 consistently working day and night at the Kremas during 44 when the camp was officially reporting only 25 dead each day? (no doubt due to the generous ultra humane treatment they were receiving)

And what is the meaning of 350 workers engaged in Entwes? (an abbreviation that can only mean disinfestation/disinfection, from the german word entwesung)

Btw when you answer simple questions with streams of vague gibberish it becomes impossible to respond, and so I can only consider this an unintentional forfeit on your part.
 
I understand you can pull out Mattogno or link back to Codoh threads, but are you able to answer a question without using ctrl v? I bring up this question because I don't think it's been answered by revisionists before

From the labor force documents Mattogno utilizes in 'Auschwitz: Open-Air Incinerations'

View attachment 3532414

Why were 900 consistently working day and night at the Kremas during 44 when the camp was officially reporting only 25 dead each day? (no doubt due to the generous ultra humane treatment they were receiving)

And what is the meaning of 350 workers engaged in Entwes? (an abbreviation that can only mean disinfestation/disinfection, from the german word entwesung)

Btw when you answer simple questions with streams of vague gibberish it becomes impossible to respond, and so I can only consider this an unintentional forfeit on your part.
Ah yes. A high death rate. The need to fight typhus. Thus workers.

But that was too many workers you say?!!

Oh no!

But no direct source quotations??

Instead we get complaints that I quote an actual researcher on the holocaust who uses direct sources.

Oh no Zo! That's too much. Why can't you be a man about this and just say stuff?!

What exactly does Mattogno say is going on here?

If you don't exactly quote revisionists here I'll take it as clear deception. Is that fair?
 
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Yes. People dead of typhus, still have typhus.
1658879525917.png


According to Mattogno in the month of May around 50 were dying each day, so why do you need 900 "stokers" working day and night for weeks on end?

they only needed to burn 2 bodies per hour man
 
Okay so Zo has agreed—as he must, to be logically consistent— that health care in the gulags was excellent and that the gulags as well as pic related were benign places. That is actually crazy so I think I will check out of this thread for tonight.

Why are you bringing up the gulags in some stupid attempt at a 'gotcha' instead of proving your assertions?

Look, if you want to argue the scale

Let's start at zero, okay? You start producing bodies and we can count them together.

According to Mattogno in the month of May around 50 were dying each day, so why do you need 900 "stokers" working day and night for weeks on end?

they only needed to burn 2 bodies per hour man

Seems contradictory and illogical. Guess we can't prove that anything happened. Good to know the case can be closed.
 
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