The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mgc]

Even though you (Ides of march guy) are a literal stalker whose waking life is currently 50% devoted to following me around on the Internet and thinking about my physiogamy, I will answer you this time because this is actually a fair and obvious question. Why would I not just post these documents I have read? I would probably ask that if I were in your position.

The thing is (which I take for granted, but obviously non-historians would not know) that archives (esp. German archives) frequently require a researcher to ask permission to use documents for specific purposes. Right now I am using the documents I mentioned for research (my PhD thesis), in the future I will probably include them in a book I am working on (long term project) about the fate of non-European Jews under the Axis powers during the war.

If I use these documents for social media purposes or in my channel I would have to ask them. I would feel quite silly asking them for permission to use a document on Kiwifarms

Regardless as I said these are side notes that have nothing to do with the evidence of German extermination policy. I am not claiming that if this woman was released it would prove German extermination policy. German extermination policy is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to non-cultists by documentary and other evidence that I have referenced throughout my time here.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

It's physiognomy, retard. And it's not jusr features I'm pointing out, it's that your loyalty is to Muslim persecutors and not to the West that gave you refuge.

Why should anyone trust a racist who only excoriates white people and countries. How are the Muslim fourth of the world population doing with their attitudes towards us Jews, coward?

 

[mgc]

There are some documents I have obtained general permission to use for whatever, e.g. see attached a Goebbels diary entry from 14 March 1945 where he says that nations, when they have the power, should kill Jews like rats ("wie die Ratten totschlagen"), and also says ",In Germany, we have already--thank god--taken care of that" ("In Deutschland haben wir das ja Gottseidank schon redlich besorgt.")

While this diary entry has been translated by others, I believe I am the only person to have posted an original copy of his microfilmed diary entries online.

EDIT - Fair point on the spelling correction stalker!

 

[Bonesjones]

I see what you mean, and I do feel at this point that earnestness and fact-finding and bringing what I feel is strong evidence of the Shoah back here

Its not actually strong evidence, you just say it is. That's editorializing and conjecture.

I’ve brought up Goebbel’s Diary, Himmler’s speech in Posen, Hitler’s own comments about extermination of the Jews, and nobody is willing to acknowledge these things ever happened because it won’t fit with their charitable-Nazi narrative.

And when we point out you are saying things that they literally do not say through the use of code words and euphemisms that are unsubstantiated, you cry we are being mean.

The Jewish term for a pulpit is “bemah”, and it would have taken Bones one second to look that up, but he didn’t want to.

Why do I give a shit about a Jewish term? The only time I brought them up was to point out their evil actions.

Blood libel was a rumor among Christians that Jews would kidnap children and drink their blood for the Sabbath. The concept violates Jewish law, which specifies that blood of any kind is not a kosher food. The person who made it up didn’t even know something as basic as that.

Except for the times it was true. Weird how it never happened except for the times it did.

You claim to be a Christian, yet take the Jewish side every time. Just another crypto sabbatean jew, pretending to fit in to push your points but crying when people push back.

The problem you have is that some people actually are truth seekers and tellers and recognize liars. When your story doesn't add up we point it out and don't back down no matter how much emotional manipulation you attempt.

There are some documents I have obtained general permission to use for whatever, e.g. see attached a Goebbels diary entry from 14 March 1945 where he says that nations, when they have the power, should kill Jews like rats ("wie die Ratten totschlagen"), and also says ",In Germany, we have already--thank god--taken care of that" ("In Deutschland haben wir das ja Gottseidank schon redlich besorgt.")

While this diary entry has been translated by others, I believe I am the only person to have posted an original copy of his microfilmed diary entries online.

EDIT - Fair point on the spelling correction stalker!

Who types a diary?

 

[mgc]

Who types a diary?

From mid-1941 onwards Goebbels dictated his diary entries to a stenographer who typed them out. He wanted the diaries to be preserved as a matter of historical record, and did so via microfilm.

It would be lulzy if it hadn’t been the real justification to kill millions of innocent people.

Perfect summation of Nazi "thought" by Stan.

 

[Bonesjones]

From mid-1941 onwards Goebbels dictated his diary entries to a stenographer who typed them out. He wanted the diaries to be preserved as a matter of historical record, and did so via microfilm.


Perfect summation of Nazi "thought" by Stan.

From Wikipedia: they were discovered by the Soviets and shipped to Moscow. Where they were unopened until discovery in 1992

Nothing suspicious about that at all.

Yet the originals only "some" survived. Quite the convincing argument you make.

 

[mrolonzo]

I see what you mean, and I do feel at this point that earnestness and fact-finding and bringing what I feel is strong evidence of the Shoah back here for discussion isn’t going anywhere at all. Everything I’ve submitted is fake according to Bones, lonzo, and a few other diehards, and to them I am a shill of a giant conspiracy that’s gone on for 60 years involving tens of thousands of people for challenging their mindset with these facts. I’ve brought up Goebbel’s Diary, Himmler’s speech in Posen, Hitler’s own comments about extermination of the Jews, and nobody is willing to acknowledge these things ever happened because it won’t fit with their charitable-Nazi narrative.

I’m sure that PLing about my personal experience with Judaism is reason enough for the pro-Nazi crowd to discount anything further I have to say. But one observation I do have about Holocaust deniers, and of Anti-Semites in general, is how little they really know about Jews or Judaism. Like the comment earlier about me “not being invited to the mechitza.” The mechitza is a little divider wall in an orthodox synagogue. The Jewish term for a pulpit is “bemah”, and it would have taken Bones one second to look that up, but he didn’t want to.

It is so eerie when a group of people outright hate a religion they barely know anything about, because in that case the antagonists make stuff up that makes no sense if you do know the religion and culture just a little bit. Like the blood libel. Blood libel was a rumor among Christians that Jews would kidnap children and drink their blood for the Sabbath. The concept violates Jewish law, which specifies that blood of any kind is not a kosher food. The person who made it up didn’t even know something as basic as that.

It would be lulzy if it hadn’t been the real justification to kill millions of innocent people.

As above, page 42
"2.1. Health-Care Provisions of the SS The SS garrison physician and the SS camp doctors exerted themselves continually to improve hygienic and sanitary conditions in Camp Auschwitz, which occasionally placed them at odds with their superiors. Their responsibilities encompassed even the maintenance and repair projects in the prisoners’ infirmary. For example, the camp doctor of the Gypsy camp
wrote to the Central Construction Office on May 29, 1943:82 “It is urgently requested that the roofs in the area of the infirmary be repaired. These leak, and when it rains, the beds of the patients are in some cases soaked through.”

From mid-1941 onwards Goebbels dictated his diary entries to a stenographer who typed them out. He wanted the diaries to be preserved as a matter of historical record, and did so via microfilm.


Perfect summation of Nazi "thought" by Stan.

He wanted everyone in the world to know he was all about killing Jews?

 

[mgc]

From Wikipedia: they were discovered by the Soviets and shipped to Moscow. Where they Dat unopened until discover in 1992

Nothing suspicious about that at all.

Yet the originals only "some" survived. Quite the convincing argument you make.

David Irving considers the diaries to be absolutely authentic. https://www.unz.com/pub/jhr__revelations-from-goebbels-diary/

Wikipedia may not mention this, but in addition to the glass plates the Soviets have, there was another (partial) typed-up copy of the diaries that the Western allies found and is still in the Hoover Institution in Stanford Unviersity. It contains many murderous references to the fate of the Jews, e.g. mentioning that the majority of Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps via Lublin were being "liquidated."

Where is your evidence that the Soviets forged the microfilms? Why do the microfilms they have match the (partial) records Stanford U had, to the t? Do you think the Soviets and the Americans forged different copies together?

 

[JohnDoe]

I am not telling anyone to take my word on stuff I have not published

You constantly over promise and under-deliver, if you deliver at all. It's a consistent bad-faith pattern of yours where you make a claim, assert it is backed up by mountains of evidence and then, over a grueling and time wasting process of avoidance and excuses you eventually either produce nothing or some tangentially related thing with no providence that we must accept on your word.

You purport to be an academic with considerable education and subject matter expertise in this area in particular, and discussions of this topic should not be novel, so why do you seem so ill-equipped to respond in a measured and clear fashion?

If you were a well informed academic with tons of material (not anecdotal or narrative) evidence to support you then step one would have been to present the complete truth in one simple, clear post. Not drag this affair out like you have nothing to support your point and are desperately searching the internet for anything you can copy-paste in while deliberately being obtuse and obnoxious.

 

[Bonesjones]

David Irving considers the diaries to be absolutely authentic. https://www.unz.com/pub/jhr__revelations-from-goebbels-diary/

Wikipedia may not mention this, but in addition to the glass plates the Soviets have, there was another (partial) typed-up copy of the diaries that the Western allies found and is still in the Hoover Institution in Stanford Unviersity. It contains many murderous references to the fate of the Jews, e.g. mentioning that the majority of Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps via Lublin were being "liquidated."

Where is your evidence that the Soviets forged the microfilms? Why do the microfilms they have match the (partial) records Stanford U had, to the t? Do you think the Soviets and the Americans forged different copies together?

Which set of diaries though? Stop conflating two sets of things as if they are one. You do this constantly.

The Soviets could easily spend 50 years forging pages in the partial diary to fit their own end. They had the will and means.

Has anyone taken the time to compare both copies side by side? No? Then that doesn't support anything you say.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

EDIT - Fair point on the spelling correction stalker!

• posts on doxing website
• introduces himself with all three names and his brand name
• introduces himself as a grad student here to argue the Holocaust with bigots (just the white ones though)
• gets robust debate
• calls people stalkers for responding
• calls people stalkers for posting / responding to information he posted himself

How to win at KiwiFarms. No wonder you're an "academic"; you're too dumb and lazy for anything else.

 

[mgc]

Has anyone taken the time to compare both copies side by side?

Of course they have done this comparative analysis. That is the first thing any serious person looking to assess the authenticity of the diaries would do.

To quote Irving (speaking about one passage referriing to the "liquidation" of the Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps)-

When I visited the Hoover Institution library in Stanford, California, to see the portion of the original Goebbels diary that they have there, this was the first page I asked to see. And when I was in the Moscow archives to examine the glass plate copy of the diary, this was also the first plate I searched for. I knew that if the diary had actually been copied by the Nazis in Berlin, and the glass plate version in Moscow matches the text in the Hoover library, there’s no way anyone could have faked it. And there it is on the glass plate in Moscow, identical. As a final clincher, this portion was also microfilmed in 1947 in New York from the text that is held by the Hoover library. So there are three different indications that this is a genuine quotation from a genuine Goebbels document.

Of course Irving came up with weird copes about how this does not mean extermination, just that most Jews are dying through deportation. (He has long since abandoned those copes fwiw). But he simultaneously authenticated the diaries.

• calls people stalkers for responding
• calls people stalkers for posting / responding to information he posted himself

I have not called people here stalkers, only a "person," i.e. you. And I am sorry but spending literal hours a day following me around various threads here and talking about me a in an entirely personal and usually off-topic sense is stalking.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

I have not called people here stalkers, only a "person," i.e. you. And I am sorry but spending literal hours a day following me around various threads here and talking about me a in a entirely personal sense is stalking.

I'm on Kiwi Farms for hours a day. When a thread gets a post I see it when I refresh whats new. I go to threads I've been in before.

You're taking my KiwiFarms usage as personal stalking of just you. What an inflated ego.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Blood libel was a rumor among Christians that Jews would kidnap children and drink their blood for the Sabbath. The concept violates Jewish law, which specifies that blood of any kind is not a kosher food. The person who made it up didn’t even know something as basic as that.

Perhaps you should read the book blood passover written by ariel toaff, the son of a prominent rabbi.

Of course the same book would have been dismissed as antisemetic if it had come from a less connected jew, or worse, a goy.

I mean murder also violates christian law but there are plenty of times people have been killed by christian groups for christian motives.

 

[Shinzo Abe’s Ghost]

I see what you mean, and I do feel at this point that earnestness and fact-finding and bringing what I feel is strong evidence of the Shoah back here for discussion isn’t going anywhere at all. Everything I’ve submitted is fake according to Bones, lonzo, and a few other diehards, and to them I am a shill of a giant conspiracy that’s gone on for 60 years involving tens of thousands of people for challenging their mindset with these facts. I’ve brought up Goebbel’s Diary, Himmler’s speech in Posen, Hitler’s own comments about extermination of the Jews, and nobody is willing to acknowledge these things ever happened because it won’t fit with their charitable-Nazi narrative.

I’m sure that PLing about my personal experience with Judaism is reason enough for the pro-Nazi crowd to discount anything further I have to say. But one observation I do have about Holocaust deniers, and of Anti-Semites in general, is how little they really know about Jews or Judaism. Like the comment earlier about me “not being invited to the mechitza.” The mechitza is a little divider wall in an orthodox synagogue. The Jewish term for a pulpit is “bemah”, and it would have taken Bones one second to look that up, but he didn’t want to.

It is so eerie when a group of people outright hate a religion they barely know anything about, because in that case the antagonists make stuff up that makes no sense if you do know the religion and culture just a little bit. Like the blood libel. Blood libel was a rumor among Christians that Jews would kidnap children and drink their blood for the Sabbath. The concept violates Jewish law, which specifies that blood of any kind is not a kosher food. The person who made it up didn’t even know something as basic as that.

It would be lulzy if it hadn’t been the real justification to kill millions of innocent people.

Well said!

The simple truth is that these people have no trouble with denying Jewish history. They also, as shown on this very same thread, take no issue with denying their humanity. They are, for all intents and purposes, a glimpse into the minds of those who had perpetrated the Shoah during the Second World War. The only difference between them is that the deniers are now trying to rub those Jews out of history as opposed to just killing them outright, which is one and the same in the bigger scheme of things.

 

[Bonesjones]

Well said!

The simple truth is that these people have no trouble with denying Jewish history. They also, as shown on this very same thread, take no issue with denying their humanity. They are, for all intents and purposes, a glimpse into the minds of those who had perpetrated the Shoah during the Second World War. The only difference between them is that the deniers are now trying to rub those Jews out of history as opposed to just killing them outright, which is one and the same in the bigger scheme of things.

Maybe if your history is made up entirely of evil acts, it doesn't need to be erased but held up for what you shouldn't do.

 

[Shinzo Abe’s Ghost]

Maybe if your history is made up entirely of evil acts, it doesn't need to be erased but held up for what you shouldn't do.

Agreed. That’s precisely why Nazi Germany’s history is held up to this day.

 

[mrolonzo]

Agreed. That’s precisely why Nazi Germany’s history is held up to this day.

Page 46 as above.
As we will see in the third chapter, a series of “special measures for the improvement of the hygienic facilities” was initiated in Auschwitz as a result of Kammler’s visit. These included, among other things, entire buildings, such as Construction Project 160: “Laundry and Intake Building with Disinfestation Facility and Prisoners’ Bath,” as well as a “Microwave Disinfestation Facility,” the first microwave facility in the world. Kammler’s order to build this facility was transmitted to the Auschwitz Central Construction Office with the endorsement of the head of Office CV of the WVHA dated July 22, 1943.86 There is a comprehensive article by Hans Jürgen Nowak on the subject of the Auschwitz microwave facility, to which I refer (Nowak 199.

Of course they have done this comparative analysis. That is the first thing any serious person looking to assess the authenticity of the diaries would do.

To quote Irving (speaking about one passage referriing to the "liquidation" of the Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps)-

When I visited the Hoover Institution library in Stanford, California, to see the portion of the original Goebbels diary that they have there, this was the first page I asked to see. And when I was in the Moscow archives to examine the glass plate copy of the diary, this was also the first plate I searched for. I knew that if the diary had actually been copied by the Nazis in Berlin, and the glass plate version in Moscow matches the text in the Hoover library, there’s no way anyone could have faked it. And there it is on the glass plate in Moscow, identical. As a final clincher, this portion was also microfilmed in 1947 in New York from the text that is held by the Hoover library. So there are three different indications that this is a genuine quotation from a genuine Goebbels document.

Of course Irving came up with weird copes about how this does not mean extermination, just that most Jews are dying through deportation. (He has long since abandoned those copes fwiw). But he simultaneously authenticated the diaries.

Page 47 as above
The prisoners’ infirmary offered the following specialty wards in the reporting quarter:
X-ray room
Pathology and hematology laboratory Ear-nose-throat ward
Optician
Light therapy
Medicinal herbs pharmacy
Dietetic kitchen
Dental clinic

The efforts in the special departments of Ward 10 continue.

 

[Bonesjones]

Of course they have done this comparative analysis. That is the first thing any serious person looking to assess the authenticity of the diaries would do.

To quote Irving (speaking about one passage referriing to the "liquidation" of the Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps)-

When I visited the Hoover Institution library in Stanford, California, to see the portion of the original Goebbels diary that they have there, this was the first page I asked to see. And when I was in the Moscow archives to examine the glass plate copy of the diary, this was also the first plate I searched for. I knew that if the diary had actually been copied by the Nazis in Berlin, and the glass plate version in Moscow matches the text in the Hoover library, there’s no way anyone could have faked it. And there it is on the glass plate in Moscow, identical. As a final clincher, this portion was also microfilmed in 1947 in New York from the text that is held by the Hoover library. So there are three different indications that this is a genuine quotation from a genuine Goebbels document.

Of course Irving came up with weird copes about how this does not mean extermination, just that most Jews are dying through deportation. (He has long since abandoned those copes fwiw). But he simultaneously authenticated the diaries.

I'm assuming you are quoting this from here: https://www.unz.com/pub/jhr__revelations-from-goebbels-diary/

Which if he personally looked at them does validate them partially. Though again, doesn't rule out forgery just makes it entirely unlikely. It's good enough for conversation though.

So next is the content, we have someone's private diary that's also being written for mass exposure. So it's not really a diary at all but a memoirs. This is entirely different. Irving admits to finding inconsistencies with what's written and what's reality. So we have to judge it on those terms.

So you've got a propaganda piece that says exactly what has been known all along. The jews were pushed east, most of them forced into labor, and the others barbarically just dropped off outside their territory. Which fits with revisionist arguement and not holocaust.

 

[Stan]

I’m Well said!

The simple truth is that these people have no trouble with denying Jewish history. They also, as shown on this very same thread, take no issue with denying their humanity. They are, for all intents and purposes, a glimpse into the minds of those who had perpetrated the Shoah during the Second World War. The only difference between them is that the deniers are now trying to rub those Jews out of history as opposed to just killing them outright, which is one and the same in the bigger scheme of things.

Yes, in many ways a few posters here remind me of the sort of people who could stomach doing this. But I don’t think pro-Nazi fanboys or anti-semites are subhuman. They have a clear and obvious bias, and they’re willing to bankrupt their integrity to uphold their faith that the Holocaust was not a big deal. But the Nazis weren’t monsters; they were cold, calculating people who set about the Holocaust in a methodical and systematic way. And essentially, the Nazis succeeded; Germany, Poland, Greece, and France have hardly any Jewish population today.

The fanboys are thankfully very poorly organized and hopefully won’t amount to much. But the Milgram experiments demonstrate that it doesn’t take a sociopath to do what the SS did

And when we point out you are saying things that they literally do not say through the use of code words and euphemisms that are unsubstantiated, you cry we are being mean.

Why do I give a shit about a Jewish term? The only time I brought them up was to point out their evil actions.

Except for the times it was true. Weird how it never happened except for the times it did.

You claim to be a Christian, yet take the Jewish side every time. Just another crypto sabbatean jew, pretending to fit in to push your points but crying when people push back.

The problem you have is that some people actually are truth seekers and tellers and recognize liars. When your story doesn't add up we point it out and don't back down no matter how much emotional manipulation you attempt.

I gave you 6 primary sources so far attesting to the Holocaust and also Allied photographs of the Auschwitz death camp in operation. I brought in an article from Scientific American about current archaeological findings from the camps. I’m not “editorializing” to call that strong evidence

I know you don’t give a shit about Judaism. But those who do find your aversion to Jews as silly as a kid who hates a food he’s never tried. You passionately hate something you know nothing of and make up lies to keep yourself angry.

If you wish to prove to me the blood libel happened then I want pictures, witness statements, archeological evidence and hundreds of legal proceedings and a confession from a Jew who killed Christian children and in order to drink their blood. Shouldn’t be too hard for you since you seem to know for sure it’s true.

Don’t tell me about my own faith formation. You’re not a truth seeker. You decided at some point that you wanted the Holocaust to not be true, and then set about finding authors and “evidence” to confirm your fantasy.

Next you’ll tell me Jews caused the Black Plague. Lunatic

ETA: is everything these guys say DARVO? Because Holocaust denialism must be the fattest DARVO I have ever seen in the wild