The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mgc]

The Morgenthau Plan was not implemented, but would have been genocidal if it had been, because Germany was not built to sustain itself as a purely agrarian society.

I do not blame "the Jews" for the Morgenthau Plan. First, Morgenthau was one dude. Second, he was supported in his plan by Harry Hopkins, FDR (in some of his more brutal moods), and other gentile members of the Administration. Third, the US was a democratic country with free speech in which Jews were a small minority, and the fact that an effectively genocidal policy was actually seriously considered at the top level has to be considered the fault of American society in general, not "the Jews."

The big Allied postwar crime was the brutal ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Europe, in which huge numbers perished miserably. But the Germans in Germany were not subject to genocide after the war, though the Morgenthau plan would have entailed genocide.

 

[Linako 2.0]

The big Allied postwar crime was the brutal ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Europe, in which huge numbers perished miserably. But the Germans in Germany were not subject to genocide after the war, though the Morgenthau plan would have entailed genocide.

>The Germans were wiped out of their historical homelands BUT IT WAS NOT A GENOCIDE

 

[mgc]

>The Germans were wiped out of their historical homelands BUT IT WAS NOT A GENOCIDE
View attachment 3507884

I think you ought to reread the two sentences you are quoting more carefully.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The Morgenthau Plan was not implemented, but would have been genocidal if it had been, because Germany was not built to sustain itself as a purely agrarian society.

I do not blame "the Jews" for the Morgenthau Plan. First, Morgenthau was one dude. Second, he was supported in his plan by Harry Hopkins, FDR (in some of his more brutal moods), and other gentile members of the Administration. Third, the US was a democratic country with free speech in which Jews were a small minority, and the fact that an effectively genocidal policy was actually seriously considered at the top level has to be considered the fault of American society in general, not "the Jews."

The big Allied postwar crime was the brutal ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Europe, in which huge numbers perished miserably. But the Germans in Germany were not subject to genocide after the war, though the Morgenthau plan would have entailed genocide.

I think it's interesting that you're willing to condemn any goy nation but not international jewish organisation or coups.

Thank you for answering, no further questions.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

I think it's interesting that you're willing to condemn any goy nation but not international jewish organisation or coups.

No not any goy nation, just the non-Muslim ones.

 

[mrolonzo]

Honestly if you take into account how much the Soviets suffered, and how desperate their circumstance was, I am not sure that they were much worse than the Western Allies.

I am not exonerating the Soviets, who often behaved monstrously (Katyn of course, but also the brutal ethnic cleansing operations targeting Volga Germans and supposedly pro-German Soviet minorities like the Chechens and Crimean Tartars, widespread mistreatment of German POWs, large incidence of rape, etc ). By equating the Soviets with the Western Allies, I am trying to emphasize instead how horrible the latter behaved too.

The latter engaged in the firebombing and nuking of civilians, the British diverted foodstuffs from South Asia knowing it would cause a genocidal famine, and then they collaborated with the Soviets after the war to ethnically cleanse Germans, not just the "settlers" who had replaced ethnically cleansed Poles, but traditional German populations all over Eastern Europe who were just living where they always had lived. I would also add that contrary to Western versions of history, sexual violence was hardly the exclusive province of the Red Army, and plenty of British and American soldiers committed rape.

Nazis win overwhelmingly in terms of horribleness, though. First people in history to create factories devoted to killing all members of an ethnic group they could get their hands on, not just political enemies but women and kids. (Able bodied were killed after being exploited for labor.) And do not forget that, while the biggest Allied crimes (huge exception being ethnic cleansing of Germans) ended when the war ended, Nazi crimes and body count would have only increased had they prevailed and achieved dominion in Eastern Europe. General Plan Ost would have meant the death and enslavement of tens of millions more Slavs.

In terms of the Wehrmacht, they behaved pretty similarly to the Western Allies in the West, but were unparalled savages in the East - much worse than the Red Army - because they had dehumanized Russians and Poles. The Germans razed numerous villages or cities and regularly murdered thousands of Eastern civilians in "reprisals." Rape committed by German soldiers was punished by court martial in the West, yet not in the East (I cannot say I have personally read the documents showing this, but according to Richard Evans, German rapists of Russian women were punished for racial shame, not rape).

Such claims of soldaten being punished for racial crimes rather than rape are vague and improbable and Richard Evans goes a long way on very little, Oxbridge or no Oxbridge.

It was against orders in any case, and as the soldaten would say, Befel ist befel.

There is some thinking they installed a brothel there also as a counter rape measure.

The SS hanged an SS commander for killing two Jews and tried his wife for embezzlement even four years after the crime.

The Nazi regime were so terrible that they couldn't make up their mind about whether or not to execute a Jewish assassin of one of their diplomats. He wasn't worked to death either and survived the war by most accounts.

The SS were so terrible that they in fact released Poles and Jews from Auschwitz.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The SS were so terrible that they in fact released Poles and Jews from Auschwitz

Never heard this claim before. Source?

 

[mrolonzo]

Never heard this claim before. Source?

HOLOCAUST HANDBOOKS, Volume 33: Carlo Mattogno: Healthcare in Auschwitz: Medical Care and Special Treatment of Registered Inmates. Translated by N. Joseph Potts, with a contribution by Christoph M. Wieland. First edition, October 2016

Please don't tell Stan or the other guys. This is upsetting and they hate this guy.

 

[Lemmingwise]

HOLOCAUST HANDBOOKS, Volume 33: Carlo Mattogno: Healthcare in Auschwitz: Medical Care and Special Treatment of Registered Inmates. Translated by N. Joseph Potts, with a contribution by Christoph M. Wieland. First edition, October 2016

Please don't tell Stan or the other guys. This is upsetting and they hate this guy.

Appreciated. I preaume you've read this? Do you know what source Mattogno used to come this conclusion?

 

[Stan]

So there's no official policy you can point to? Only a collection that might add up to one? Pretty damning.

You have to prove any of that happened, I generally don't sympathize with fictional accounts.

Least surprising admission.

There's no moral relativism. Just a proper comparison of a point in time. If both sides had internment camps, then you can't complain about one and not the other. I don't think the Nazis had any intention of being cruel and unusual, which is why they took great lengths to ensure disease and starvation were minimized when possible, unfortunately the war going on had other ideas.

What evidence?

Why did all the people who left New Orleans after Katrina not come back?

Because the Nazis weren't the horrific monsters they are claimed to be? They genuinely intended to move the jews out of their territory.

These are claims of capacity and not demonstrated capacity. Transit camps would need delousing chambers. Inmates believing they are going to be killed would. Which is the key point. Rumors spread far and wide, these were turned into war propaganda, and eventually used to turn the post war period against Germany to cover for the allies own war crimes.

There are policies; Aktion Reinhard, Wannsee Protocol most prominently. Some bums round here won’t recognize it for what it is.

Maybe some people moved after Katrina, but hey! We know where they went! After your fictional “resettlement”, not one Jew is ever heard from again. They didn’t send word to their families, they don’t keep up correspondence with anyone, they didn’t come back from the East (which was ravaged by war), they just go silent and disappear after the ghettos are liquidated. Show me what happened to them! You’re so confident that the Holocaust is a fiction, so you must have some witness statements, letters from at least 1 person who was heard from after “resettlement”

Your mental image of the Nazis as genuinely caring about the welfare of Jews flies in the face of Hitler’s own rhetoric and that of the party. To them Jews were subhuman scum; your characterization of Nazis as being nice to the Jews is a fairy tale you’re telling the thread without the least shred of evidence.

Have you ever heard the phrase: “don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining”? Post some evidence that the Nazis were nice to the Jews and resettlement occurred; otherwise you’re just spinning tales like lonzo does about the “Great Heathcare in Buchenwald”.

PS if Treblinka is a “transit camp” why were dozens of wedding rings left behind? Why would their owners have left them behind if not because they were gassed to death?

 

[Stan]

Never heard this claim before. Source?

His butt

HOLOCAUST HANDBOOKS, Volume 33: Carlo Mattogno: Healthcare in Auschwitz: Medical Care and Special Treatment of Registered Inmates. Translated by N. Joseph Potts, with a contribution by Christoph M. Wieland. First edition, October 2016

Please don't tell Stan or the other guys. This is upsetting and they hate this guy.

The handbooks are shams written by fake historians who polish each other’s credentials in a little circlejerk of ersatz academia. They don’t engage with the real academia, just to Holocaust fanboys.

Mattogno in particular is guilty of trying to stake out a controversial position in a field he k owns nothing about. It’s embarassing to learn how he doesn’t know what historical terminology means; e.g. his use of the phrase “propaganda” which I discussed earlier. (Not his only error but I’ll bring new ones in for consideration later today)

Appreciated. I preaume you've read this? Do you know what source Mattogno used to come this conclusion?

Mattogno cannabalizes other sources and rarely if ever goes back to primary ones. I wouldn’t use him as an educational source on any topic because of his fibbing about his credentials to make himself look respectable, and also because of his demonstrated record of unwillingness to work with any other “academic” who isn’t waist-deep in Holocaust Denialism ideology. FYI

 

[Bonesjones]

There are policies; Aktion Reinhard, Wannsee Protocol most prominently. Some bums round here won’t recognize it for what it is.

When I ask for explicit policy you give me code words, you are a child.

Maybe some people moved after Katrina, but hey! We know where they went! After your fictional “resettlement”, not one Jew is ever heard from again. They didn’t send word to their families, they don’t keep up correspondence with anyone, they didn’t come back from the East (which was ravaged by war), they just go silent and disappear after the ghettos are liquidated. Show me what happened to them! You’re so confident that the Holocaust is a fiction, so you must have some witness statements, letters from at least 1 person who was heard from after “resettlement”

Do we know where they went? Is there a list somewhere?

As we know in the post war era, we have millions of people in resettlement camps as displaced people, we have millions of Poles in Soviet concentration camps and gulag. Why is it beyond your belief that the Soviets killed them in the post war Era? Is it because you are a communist? There's been many cases of people being reunited ten, twenty, fifty years later because they both ended up in seperate parts of the world.

Your mental image of the Nazis as genuinely caring about the welfare of Jews flies in the face of Hitler’s own rhetoric and that of the party. To them Jews were subhuman scum; your characterization of Nazis as being nice to the Jews is a fairy tale you’re telling the thread without the least shred of evidence.

I don’t think they were particularly nice nor do I think they were extra evil monsters. The rise of National Socialism was in contrast to Jewish exploitation of the German people, so I do think the germans would have no problem taking their stuff and kicking them out as repayment for their financial crimes. Anything more requires serious evidence and not code words and speculation.

Have you ever heard the phrase: “don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining”? Post some evidence that the Nazis were nice to the Jews and resettlement occurred; otherwise you’re just spinning tales like lonzo does about the “Great Heathcare in Buchenwald”.

Transit camps and attempts at delousing is enough for me, nothing of course will ever be enough for you.

PS if Treblinka is a “transit camp” why were dozens of wedding rings left behind? Why would their owners have left them behind if not because they were gassed to death?

The Jewish women hearing rumors they were going to be gassed to death and genuinely believe it acted in a manner as if it was true. That doesn't make it true but it does make their actions understandable. It also makes for a nice addition to your narrative, if only you have the supporting evidence to make those rumors true.

 

[Bonesjones]

His butt

The handbooks are shams written by fake historians who polish each other’s credentials in a little circlejerk of ersatz academia. They don’t engage with the real academia, just to Holocaust fanboys.

Mattogno in particular is guilty of trying to stake out a controversial position in a field he k owns nothing about. It’s embarassing to learn how he doesn’t know what historical terminology means; e.g. his use of the phrase “propaganda” which I discussed earlier.

Mattogno cannabalizes other sources and rarely if ever goes back to primary ones. FYI

Aww you have no response so you cope and seethe.

 

[mrolonzo]

Appreciated. I preaume you've read this? Do you know what source Mattogno used to come this conclusion?

He uses holocaust historians own work and original documents.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Mattogno cannabalizes other sources and rarely if ever goes back to primary ones. I wouldn’t use him as an educational source on any topic because of his fibbing about his credentials to make himself look respectable, and also because of his demonstrated record of unwillingness to work with any other “academic” who isn’t waist-deep in Holocaust Denialism ideology. FYI

I trust him about as much as yad vashem, which is why I am more interested in what source he's basing it on, rather than what he claims.

I'm surprised at this aggressive post from you, when I am explicitly asking for something that allows me to verify the veracity of the claim.

After I make my big post, which is still planned, will you also give some insight why this subject seems very personal to you? I think you said you worked in Israel IIRC? Did you develop a strong emotional connection to jewish prople and goals?

He uses holocaust historians own work and original documents.

This one right?

https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=33

Any digital version you can share or can you look up the page for me and tell me if he cites a sourve for this claim?

 

[mrolonzo]

I trust him about as much as yad vashem, which is why I am more interested in what source he's basing it on, rather than what he claims.

I'm surprised at this aggressive post from you, when I am explicitly asking for something that allows me to verify the veracity of the claim.

After I make my big post, which is still planned, will you also give some insight why this subject seems very personal to you? I think you said you worked in Israel IIRC? Did you develop a strong emotional connection to jewish prople and goals?


This one right?

https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=33

Any digital version you can share or can you look up the page for me and tell me if he cites a sourve for this claim?

It's a free pdf. Says it right there on your link page.
From the book;
"1.8. Releases from “Labor Educational Camp Birkenau” Among the historical questions that most embarrass orthodox Holocaust historians belong, apart from those concerning the children born and regularly registered in the camp,66 those concerning the release of prisoners from Auschwitz. Irena Strzelecka, a historian at the Auschwitz Memorial, devotes a very short chapter to this subject that strives primarily to minimize this remarkable fact. She writes (Strzelecka 1999a, p. 524): “During the years 1942, 1944 and early 1945 (records for the years 19401941 and 1943 are lacking), including all educational prisoners sentenced to a specific time period (usually six weeks) in the Auschwitz concentration camp and the group of German criminal prisoners consigned to the ‘Special Regiment Dirlewanger,’ a total of 1,549 prisoners (men and women) were released from Auschwitz Concentration Camp.”
In Danuta Czech’s Chronicle altogether 1,255 releases are reported, which fall into the following categories: 575 educational prisoners, 465 protective prisoners, 167 female prisoners, 47 Jewish prisoners, 1 prisoner of war (see Table 1 in the Appendix.). The entries concerned fall in the very brief periods from July 19 to July 27, 1942 and from November 4, 1944 to January 17, 1945. This then supports the impression that no prisoners were released during the peak of the alleged mass exterminations—which of course would only be logical, if these exterminations had in fact taken place. Czech could hardly ignore the releases of 1942, because these were reflected in the Census Book,67 upon which she relied to a great extent. Of course, she swept under the carpet the releases that were recorded in
the census report of the Women’s Camp Birkenau for October 1944:68 on the 7th of that month, nine prisoners were released, on the 12th, ten, and on the 13th, 38.69 Twenty-three further freed prisoners, seven Jews among them, are indicated in the “Kommandobuch.”70 A further record that shows numerous releases is the “Serial-Number Book 150,000 – 200,000”; under the first 30,000 numbers, there are 168 male prisoners released between September 1943 and November 1944 (cf. Paragraph 6.1.4.). In surviving installments of a series of reports on “Summary of Number
and Utilization of the Women Prisoners at Auschwitz Concentration Camp,” it is indicated that between April 2 and June 30, 1942, 83 prisoners were released (cf. Section 7.4.). To this we have to add the fact that educational prisoners were released not only in 1942, but also in 1943 and 1944 after serving short sentences."

Pages 38 to 39.

 

[Stan]

When I ask for explicit policy you give me code words, you are a child.

Do we know where they went? Is there a list somewhere?

As we know in the post war era, we have millions of people in resettlement camps as displaced people, we have millions of Poles in Soviet concentration camps and gulag. Why is it beyond your belief that the Soviets killed them in the post war Era? Is it because you are a communist? There's been many cases of people being reunited ten, twenty, fifty years later because they both ended up in seperate parts of the world.

I don’t think they were particularly nice nor do I think they were extra evil monsters. The rise of National Socialism was in contrast to Jewish exploitation of the German people, so I do think the germans would have no problem taking their stuff and kicking them out as repayment for their financial crimes. Anything more requires serious evidence and not code words and speculation.

Transit camps and attempts at delousing is enough for me, nothing of course will ever be enough for you.

The Jewish women hearing rumors they were going to be gassed to death and genuinely believe it acted in a manner as if it was true. That doesn't make it true but it does make their actions understandable. It also makes for a nice addition to your narrative, if only you have the supporting evidence to make those rumors true.

Aktion T4 is a signed policy from Hitler. I even archived an image of it to this thread.
The Wannsee protocol and Aktion Reinhard are similarly real policies. You're being weird; handwaving away real fact as fairy tales. I’m frustrated because I post large amounts of the evidence you’re requesting to the thread, but when I do you just laugh it off or switch topics; you say everything i post is fake propaganda.

If it’s all propaganda then who is behind it all? If the Holocaust is fake who fabricated it and why? I won’t ask for tons of details at this point, just a hypothesis is fine.

I trust him about as much as yad vashem, which is why I am more interested in what source he's basing it on, rather than what he claims.

I'm surprised at this aggressive post from you, when I am explicitly asking for something that allows me to verify the veracity of the claim.

After I make my big post, which is still planned, will you also give some insight why this subject seems very personal to you? I think you said you worked in Israel IIRC? Did you develop a strong emotional connection to jewish prople and goals?


This one right?

https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=33

Any digital version you can share or can you look up the page for me and tell me if he cites a sourve for this claim?

I’d rather not PL about my feelings and thoughts about Judaism in this thread; but suffice to say it was an important part of my faith formation in Christianity to leave the fold for awhile and learn about the Old Testament and what came before. I’ll DM you with more detail.

 

[Shinzo Abe’s Ghost]

@Stan I’m holding you in higher contempt than the weasels populating this thread because you contribute to its ugly existence by engaging them all. These sub-humans aren’t here to question the Holocaust, they are here to deny its existence. Any and all information that you will provide them shall be eschewed, ignored or scorned by design. Any discourse with civility or decor will be treated as a concession and an invitation to further spew their vile bile. This isn’t a place for intellectual stimulation – it’s a literal dead end, mentally and spiritually.

 

[mrolonzo]

@Stan I’m holding you in higher contempt than the weasels populating this thread because you contribute to its ugly existence by engaging them all. These sub-humans aren’t here to question the Holocaust, they are here to deny its existence. Any and all information that you will provide them shall be eschewed, ignored or scorned by design. Any discourse with civility or decor will be treated as a concession and an invitation to further spew their vile bile. This isn’t a place for intellectual stimulation – it’s a literal dead end, mentally and spiritually.

Ah yes. The thought police have arrived. Stan, the lemmingwise and Chugger et al have had a bit too much to think!

 

[Lemmingwise]

It's a free pdf. Says it right there on your link page.
From the book;
"1.8. Releases from “Labor Educational Camp Birkenau” Among the historical questions that most embarrass orthodox Holocaust historians belong, apart from those concerning the children born and regularly registered in the camp,66 those concerning the release of prisoners from Auschwitz. Irena Strzelecka, a historian at the Auschwitz Memorial, devotes a very short chapter to this subject that strives primarily to minimize this remarkable fact. She writes (Strzelecka 1999a, p. 524): “During the years 1942, 1944 and early 1945 (records for the years 19401941 and 1943 are lacking), including all educational prisoners sentenced to a specific time period (usually six weeks) in the Auschwitz concentration camp and the group of German criminal prisoners consigned to the ‘Special Regiment Dirlewanger,’ a total of 1,549 prisoners (men and women) were released from Auschwitz Concentration Camp.”
In Danuta Czech’s Chronicle altogether 1,255 releases are reported, which fall into the following categories: 575 educational prisoners, 465 protective prisoners, 167 female prisoners, 47 Jewish prisoners, 1 prisoner of war (see Table 1 in the Appendix.). The entries concerned fall in the very brief periods from July 19 to July 27, 1942 and from November 4, 1944 to January 17, 1945. This then supports the impression that no prisoners were released during the peak of the alleged mass exterminations—which of course would only be logical, if these exterminations had in fact taken place. Czech could hardly ignore the releases of 1942, because these were reflected in the Census Book,67 upon which she relied to a great extent. Of course, she swept under the carpet the releases that were recorded in
the census report of the Women’s Camp Birkenau for October 1944:68 on the 7th of that month, nine prisoners were released, on the 12th, ten, and on the 13th, 38.69 Twenty-three further freed prisoners, seven Jews among them, are indicated in the “Kommandobuch.”70 A further record that shows numerous releases is the “Serial-Number Book 150,000 – 200,000”; under the first 30,000 numbers, there are 168 male prisoners released between September 1943 and November 1944 (cf. Paragraph 6.1.4.). In surviving installments of a series of reports on “Summary of Number
and Utilization of the Women Prisoners at Auschwitz Concentration Camp,” it is indicated that between April 2 and June 30, 1942, 83 prisoners were released (cf. Section 7.4.). To this we have to add the fact that educational prisoners were released not only in 1942, but also in 1943 and 1944 after serving short sentences."

Pages 38 to 39.

Thanks, my bad, I thought the pdf was just a license notice.