The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

Cockerill is too fat and lazy to leave easy mode of his "whites bad" lectures, and too cowardly to address the Muslim anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

Most muslims in 'white' countries learn about the Holocaust in government school and believe it like everyone else

Muslims in the middle east clearly aren't getting this education. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TJzclHiQIY

Yet from what I've read, and this is another brutal own of Holocaust deniers (how do these guys take so many hits and yet keep going), in the university setting Holocaust denial isn't a thing there

I have a reference to this effect that I could dredge up if anyone is interested, but one can just look at the 2006 Holocaust conference in Tehran. I couldn't find a single Iranian or Arab university historian among the bunch, despite Holocaust skepticism being the official stance of the Iranian government at the time.

So this isn't a problem with the intellectual elite, who are the only people HS could reasonably engage with. if you care so much about muslim anti semitism, probably as a Jew you should put pressure on the Israeli government to stop committing low level genocide against people who aren't a threat to them.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Most muslims in 'white' countries learn about the Holocaust in government school and believe it like everyone else

Wrong.

At least in the netherlands it has been reported several times how muslim kids reject the holocaust and it's an educational problem they don't know how to fix. They don't reject it as universally as say, homosexuality, but the holocaust isn't far behind with like 60- 80% or so rejecting it.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

Most muslims in 'white' countries learn about the Holocaust in government school and believe it like everyone else

They don't believe it. They support Sharia law wherever they go. When they say they know the Holocaust happened they're just lying to avoid trouble.

if you care so much about muslim anti semitism, probably as a Jew you should put pressure on the Israeli government to stop committing low level genocide against people who aren't a threat to them.

Genocided populations don't grow, as the Palestinian one has. Immigrating then claiming land for Sharia is a form of genocide. Londonistan is a sewer of people-shaped turds trying to take pieces of Britain away from white people.

 

[mrolonzo]

I don’t cut and paste, hon.

And your antisemitism is showing again; you really need to avoid posting “based Hitler” memes in this thread if you want anybody but other anti-Semites to take you seriously. As it is you ascribe to believe something incredible, which is that the Holocaust didn’t happen, but you can’t provide an alternate explanation for what did happen. When you run out of brain cells you post rants about the Jewish conspiracy and pictures of Hitler.

… it’s cringe.

Edit to add: post evidence that the “Nazis took good care of the Jews”. You repeatedly post dumb shit in the thread like “Mengele was a caring doctor fighting typhus in the camps” or “Aktion Reinhard was a financial program to steal crap from the Jews before they were deported East” and when I ask you for evidence you post an irrelevant quotation or nothing at all, Any evidence, I can wait.

You're angry dude, I get that but you guys cant just throw mud at the wall then get mad when it's just dismissed out of hand.

As for taking good care. Just look at their healthcare system or their battle against typhus.

Loronzo and his ilk (white nationalists and Nazi LARPers) do not love white people, they love Hitler. They will excuse any number of atrocities against white gentiles—last night, Zo excused the razing of Warsaw, even after the Polish resistance surrendered—so long as their daddy did it.

Pics related. The little (Polish gentile) girl was sent to Auschwitz because of Hitler's crackpot theories, where she perished miserably. She was sent to Auschwitz as part of a Nazi ethnic cleansing operation of "subhuman" Poles.

White nationalists excuse torture of Polish gentile children because their daddy did it.

Ok why was she sent to Auschwitz?

This is obviously absurd, but it is true that the SS wanted to exploit able bodied Jews economically as long as they could before killing them. I do not see why it is so crazy to suggest, as all the documents and eyewitnesses attest to, that they wanted the physically robust Jews dead only after they economically exploited them. Meaning that in the camps working Jews were fed, and that sometimes Nazi leaders intervened to improve their diets so they could actually work effectively.

What do you mean it's absurd? They are specifically ordered to focus on improving the health of all the inmates.

 

[mgc]

In fact the SS assigned Jews an excellent diet in Auschwitz.

This is obviously absurd, but it is true that the SS wanted to exploit able bodied Jews economically as long as they could before killing them. I do not see why it is so crazy to suggest, as all the documents and eyewitnesses attest to, that they wanted the physically robust Jews dead only after they economically exploited them. Meaning that in the camps working Jews were fed, and that sometimes Nazi leaders intervened to improve their diets so they could actually work effectively.

 

[Bonesjones]

“They” (who are they? A disparate bunch of hundreds of historians and documentarians who all happened to converge on the truth of the Holocaust?) have evidence of numerous bodies. Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec have giant piles of human cremains and ashes in situ, confirmed by archeological analysis (core drilling and soil samples). The physical evidence of bodies are there.

A lot of Jews were shot and buried, yes. But the method was ineffective, time consuming, and it drained morale. Gas vans were the next innovation; you put the passengers in the back and drive around until they die from CO poisoning. Then, gas chambers, using a cheap agent they already had (Zyklon B) that was more toxic to mammals than to lice.

I resent that you’re gonna call it “exploring” or “open mindedness” when you’re basically married to one narrative (Holocaust didn’t happen) despite all the historical evidence that the Holocaust did happen. It makes you look dumb.

@middlemarch: stop shitting up the thread about Muslims. Ty

The people in this thread do it consistently. They don't actually have these giant piles of cremains, since there are international standards for verification and identification that have never been carried out. Funny how that works, they did preliminary investigation and called it good instead of completing their research, why is that the case? Scared of what they might find? I'm not afraid to say I'm wrong and that they could exist as specified, but that takes them actually doing what needs to be done.

Saying shooting jews happened but it was just so awful that they had to stop is evidence that it didn't exist btw. Since the holocaust narrative says they were so dehumanized and the Nazis are so evil they used massive resources to exterminate the jews instead of winning the war. Not that you care how much you constantly contradict yourself.

Zero evidence for gas vans being used by the Nazis exists, we've been over that in this very thread, so go back and read it. Funny enough, the Soviets did use them. Yet another case of projection.

I dont care how you feel about me or anything else, I'm only interested in the discovery of the truth based on logic, evidence, and lack of manipulation. The holocaust has a lack of all of the above and it's biggest defenders regularly demonstrate the inability to use logic, post valid evidence, and argue their points in direct and straightforward manners.

I've proven the holocaust isn't within the realm of possibility with the available evidence, based on your arguments and provided evidence. I don't consider kangaroo court testimony nor eyewitness accounts with zero material backing meaningful, which is why I start with the available physical evidence and work from there. To call that unopenminded just shows your own projection.

 

[Aves]

Considered by whom? Various holocaust denial laws word it as "downplaying or diminishment of the holocaust", so if it goes by the original definition of 6 million, it is denial technically under the law.

David Cole similarly only took issue with the gas chamber story, and he approached things quite openly, only unhappy with the answers that didnt make sense. At some point a cash bounty was placed on his whereabouts by an organisation. Not to send him a bouquet of flowers, I presume.

Go to wikipedia and the first thing you read about him is that he "gained fame as a holocaust denier". Only the gas chambers is what he contended with.

So, respectefully, in practice what you wrote is not true at all. Look at david cole's wikipedia page. Watch his documentary. Look at his tv debates. And see that I am correct. The bar for being called a holocaust denier are very very low.

According to Wikipedia, he also thought the holocaust ended in 1943 and there was no overarching genocidal plan, but rather a plan to use the Jews as slave labor which led to millions dead.

And I was taking specifically about the numbers, not about other parts of the holocaust. Saying “5 million died” isn’t really denial (as shown by other famous historians believing 5 million) but saying “5 million died, but it wasn’t planned from the beginning” is very different.

Nothing I said was wrong, I am specifically referencing the numbers in terms of what is considered denial. My point is just that saying “5 million died” on its own isn’t denial.

 

[Stan]

[…] I don't believe there is any speech where hitler said anything like that after he got to power. And people promising rabblerousing things is as old as time. There have been decades of promises to limit immigration from politicians across the western world. Trump would never be popularly accepted among the rural right without his wall idea. Yet he spent almost none of his political capital persuing it once in power.

However, unlike trump, in a war, a lot more decisions automically fall in the hands of generals, soldiers and so on. So regardless of official orders, quite different action may be taking place.

If the only proof is his statements before he got to power, that is stunning. No orders, recordings or statements after he got to power to that effect, and even some evidence against it like his comments when he discovered kristallnacht?

Mind you, I personally don't relieve hitler from moral responsibility if it went as Irving suggests, but I don't see any strong evidence against this factual claims.

Public statement by Hitler 19 years after the Beer hall putsch, From the attached pdf:

Another statement by Hitler that points to his personal premeditation of the Final Solution is one he made to Czech foreign minister František Chvalkovský during a meeting on January 21, 1939: “We are going to destroy the Jews. They are not going to get away with what they did on 9 November 1918. The day of reckoning has come.”9 Hitler reiterated this genocidal sentiment nine days later in his “prophecy” speech before the Reichstag: “If International Jewry...should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will be...the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.”10

Hitler further emphasized his 'prophecy' regarding the fate of eradication for Europe's Jews during a speech in Munich to commemorate the 19th anniversary of his failed 'Beer Hall Putsch',11 on November 8, 1942: “You will recall the Reichstag session during which I declared: 'if Jewry should bring about a world war, the result will be...the extermination of Jewry in Europe.' People laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will no longer laugh a short time from now.”12

Account from Goebbels about Hitler’s private comments:

In addition to the personal statements and speeches that convey Hitler's premeditation of the Final Solution, private records and wartime documents generated by high-ranking Nazi bureaucrats point to his personal ordering of it. An example of this can be seen in a diary entry by Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels dated to December 12, 1941: “With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war
is here and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence.”13 A year later, on February
14, 1942, Goebbels again made reference in his diary to Hitler's ordering of the Final Solution: “The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly...Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies...The Führer expressed this idea vigorously and repeated it afterward to a group of officers.”14

Hitler expressed a desire to annihilate the Jews when speaking with the Palestinian leader:

7 A final example of an internal Reich record that points to Hitler being directly responsible for the move to exterminate the Jewish race is the transcript of his meeting with Palestinian leader Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, on 28 November 1941, as recorded by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt. From Schmidt's meeting minutes, we clearly see that Hitler directly promised al-Husseini that “He (the Führer) would carry on the fight until the last traces of the Jewish- Communist European hegemony had been obliterated”. The meeting notes also show that Hitler subsequently promised Husseini that once the Nazis gained control of the Southern Caucasus, “Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under British protection in Arab lands.”

 

[Stan]

holocaust has a lack of all of the above and it's biggest defenders regularly demonstrate the inability to use logic, post valid evidence, and argue their points in direct and straightforward manners.

Wrong!!

 

[Aves]

I know they were persecuted, I know they were put into camps. I also know that even before that they sterilized a bunch of africans in the ruhr area. I think a lot must have died from hunger, like in the netherlands in general. I think that those who survived must have found a place to live. My grandfather, then a young men, had to deal with his home being used first as a headquarters and later destroyed after coming home from his prison camp. This was oceanic theater though, not europe.

I think it is not accurate to say there was a genocide of 6 million jews, because the person who invented that number admitted it was a lie, just like the 5 million non jews was a lie. They are carefully chosen numbers for political effect.

I think disease played a large part and there is more than sufficient evidence of sonderaktion meaning murder of jews by machinegunning, considering they asked for more machine gun magazines for sonderaktion in documents (I forget the exact gun terminology rn). I remember laughing at someone in this thread who suggested it might be used for hunting.

They must like a very lead heavy diet.

I think I answered all your questions, let me know if I missed any.

Who “invented” 6 million? Where do you get this? A lot of historians get 6 million from censuses. The number came from estimating the population of Jews who died during the war so I’m confused on what you mean “6 million was invented”

And the number doesn’t just come from one single person, I’m sure Chugger, History speaks, and Stan could come up with an estimate of 5-6 million dead without using this inventor.

 

[Lemmingwise]

According to Wikipedia, he also thought the holocaust ended in 1943 and there was no overarching genocidal plan, but rather a plan to use the Jews as slave labor which led to millions dead.

And I was taking specifically about the numbers, not about other parts of the holocaust. Saying “5 million died” isn’t really denial (as shown by other famous historians believing 5 million) but saying “5 million died, but it wasn’t planned from the beginning” is very different.

Nothing I said was wrong, I am specifically referencing the numbers in terms of what is considered denial. My point is just that saying “5 million died” on its own isn’t denial.

Not since the official numbers have been reduced. Originally holocaust, when it was coined in the 70s, was defined as specifically the gassing of 6 million jews (and 5 million non jews, but who cares about goy right?).

 

[Bonesjones]

Wrong!!

Your words say no but your body says yes.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

• How many talks do you give annually? How many are specifically to Muslims, and how many are to non-Muslims?
• How readily do Muslims accept the facts of the Holocaust?
• Did any Muslim and Nazi leaders meet and congratulate each other for their mutual hatred of Jews?
• What specific prejudices does the Muslim world have against world Jewry and Holocaust denial?

Answer the questions, coptic poopskin. You owe your loyalty to the West for sheltering you from Muslim savages, but you're a traitor. Why do you refuse to challenge Muslims, coward?

@History Speaks answer my questions, treasonous coptic

 

[Bonesjones]

This is obviously absurd, but it is true that the SS wanted to exploit able bodied Jews economically as long as they could before killing them. I do not see why it is so crazy to suggest, as all the documents and eyewitnesses attest to, that they wanted the physically robust Jews dead only after they economically exploited them. Meaning that in the camps working Jews were fed, and that sometimes Nazi leaders intervened to improve their diets so they could actually work effectively.

So they starved all the jews, except the working jews, who happened to be all the ones at the concentration camps but the ones they exterminated? Lmao.

 

[Aves]

Not since the official numbers have been reduced. Originally holocaust was defined as specifically 6 million.

Where do you get these “official numbers” from??? And who “originally defined the holocaust as 6 million”???

Your talking like historians are a group of secret people planning out whatever numbers they feel like, they just aren’t. Once again, there have been many historians who thought less than 5 million died who aren’t considered deniers. There are other who thought it was more than 6 million. 6 million is just what a lot of people believe in, this idea that anyone “defined” the holocaust to be specifically 6 million is absurd.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Where do you get these “official numbers” from??? And who “originally defined the holocaust as 6 million”???

Your talking like historians are a group of secret people planning out whatever numbers they feel like, they just aren’t. Once again, there have been many historians who thought less than 5 million died who aren’t considered deniers. There are other who thought it was more than 6 million. 6 million is just what a lot of people believe in, this idea that anyone “defined” the holocaust to be specifically 6 million is absurd.

Both encyclopedia brittanica and wikipedia still define it that way.

Absurd? I agree.

Wikpedia throws in the weasel words "some" though, saying "some 6 million jews" instead.

Encyclopedia brittanica:

 

[JohnDoe]

So they starved all the jews, except the working jews, who happened to be all the ones at the concentration camps but the ones they exterminated? Lmao.

Don't forget all the fat Jews they needed to fuel the crematoriums when they weren't using the open burn pits. The SS was a big believer in diversity (of BMI).

 

[Bonesjones]

Where do you get these “official numbers” from??? And who “originally defined the holocaust as 6 million”???

Your talking like historians are a group of secret people planning out whatever numbers they feel like, they just aren’t. Once again, there have been many historians who thought less than 5 million died who aren’t considered deniers. There are other who thought it was more than 6 million. 6 million is just what a lot of people believe in, this idea that anyone “defined” the holocaust to be specifically 6 million is absurd.

If you Google how many people died in the holocaust, that's the number that pops up from the accepted sources. People may argue this number or that as long as it approximates the official number, because it's a form of the Overton window. So you can say see this guy said 5 and this guy said 8, so it must be in the middle and wow look that's what the official number is. It's a form of manipulation.

Historians don't have to secretly conclude anything, holocaust denial is illegal and socially unacceptable in every legitimate form of academia and media. So unless you want to torch your own career on the principle of truth, your findings will also approximate the official story. Since you have every incentive to and zero to work against it. This applies to many other forms of research.

You also are up against a legal and established canon that is disproportionately well financed to fight against every word you say once you've broken from the official narrative.

 

[mgc]

Don't forget all the fat Jews they needed to fuel the crematoriums when they weren't using the open burn pits. The SS were a big believer in diversity (of BMI).

At Auschwitz the majority of Jews were from either Western Europe or Hungary. Before being deported these Jews were not subjected to starvation diets the way ghettoized Polish Jews were, who were a minority at Auschwitz but the majority of Aktion Reinhardt deportees.

I do not see why this is so complicated or implausible. If you wanted to kill all Christians and deported, for example, American and Ethiopian Christians to a death camp, the rates of undernourishment among these Christians will vary based on nationality.

 

[Aves]

Both encyclopedia brittanica and wikipedia still define it that way.

Absurd? I agree.

Wikpedia throws in the weasel words "some" though, saying "some 6 million jews" instead.

Are encyclopedia Brittanica or Wikipedia the defining sources of holocaust information? I’m confused on what you point is.

You said that the holocaust was “defined” in the 70s, I’m asking who and what people supposedly “defined” it to be specifically 6 million.

I’m also asking who “invented” the number. You said that some dude invented 6 million, and why anyone here should care about what this guy said.