The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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@Stan


Look at how things developed for irving, a historian, or david cole a documentary maker, and see that you're wrong.

Any historian that looks at what happened to irving would know it's career and reputation suicide to not conform.
It’s reputational suicide because there’s a vast and attested body of evidence suggesting otherwise; Irving, Cole, etc have problems being believed because they’re pushing a narrative that is unbelievable.

Irving is like an astronomer who started publishing monographs about Flat Earth. To Flat Earthers such a person would be a martyr to the cause and proof of the globalist conspiracy; to everyone else who doesn’t live in a Flat Earth echo chamber such a person is merely bizarre and untrustworthy.
 
It’s reputational suicide because there’s a vast and attested body of evidence suggesting otherwise; Irving, Cole, etc have problems being believed because they’re pushing a narrative that is unbelievable.

Irving is like an astronomer who started publishing monographs about Flat Earth. To Flat Earthers such a person would be a martyr to the cause and proof of the globalist conspiracy; to everyone else who doesn’t live in a Flat Earth echo chamber such a person is merely bizarre and untrustworthy.
You're just giving your personal impression about their reputation. The flat earth is easily disprovable with physics experiment you can repeat yourself. Conversely, it took a multi million dollar hollywood funded legal team to find only 5 errors in one of irving's historical books in a legal case.

If irving is so kooky, point to some of his kooky statements and show how they are easily proven wrong.

David cole was at one of the extermination camps for less than a day and by asking questions forced them to admit they were misleading visitors.
 
I mean, history speaks isn’t wrong. You could say “only 5 million Jews were killed” and not be considered a denier.

Bonesjones, multiple censuses show millions of Jews disappearing from Germany and Eastern Europe after WWII. Where do you think they went? I’m just curious what you think happened in the holocaust. Lemmingwise agrees there was an intentional massacre, just that there were no gassings. Do you think there were no massacres in the first place?
Census shows New Orleans lost 250 thousand people after hurricane Katrina. Did it kill 200k people? How many people would you have to track down to prove they left one way or the other? The massive devastation and flooding could easily hide the deaths of who knows how many people.

Places like Atlanta or JFK airport travel hundreds of thousands of people a day, how much of a trace do they leave? Penn Station handles over 500k a day, to use a train station as an example.

Post war we know over 15 million Germans were forced out of the Soviet controlled zone, how many of them could have been jewish, hiding under assumed identity?

When we say we don't know and can't know because of lack of evidence, you use that to push your narrative. When we point out your lack of evidence, you said we don't know and can't know and that's proof of it happening. Despite one being much more obvious than the other. Since it leaves a giant pile of bodies in one place. Only through the faulty lens of ideology can you say one is more accurate than the other.

Another thing these half-wits do not understand is the concept of burden of proof. Just because you are making a positive assertion does not mean you always bear the "burden of proof." If I say slavery happened I do not bear a burden of proof because there is evidence for that all over the place.

I am happy to assume a burden of proof for the sake of this exercise, since I am a historian and the Holocaust is easily proved to non-cultists with an open mind. But it is not the case that, as a matter of reason, you bear no burden of proof for denial. And it is perfectly rational for regular people, non historians, to assume the Holocaust happened until you meet your burden of proof to show it did not, which would require miraculous evidence.
Hey look another concept you don't understand. Amazing. Slavery as a concept does have a burden of proof, its just easily passed because of the piles of evidence for it, you know what with it being enshrined in the US constitution. Specific claims require higher burdens of proof.

Unfortunately the claims for holocaust can't even meet their own burden of proof. Since every claim made gets hand waved away.

Again: the central claims of the Holocaust are an industrialized genocide of the jews by gassing and then cremation. You are required to affirmatively prove these claims. That means you have to prove orders from top command to gas millions of people, you have to prove they had the ability to carry out these orders, then you have to prove they did. This is basic cause and effect. After 80 years you can't prove any of them. Only deflection and false attribution.
 
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I know they were persecuted, I know they were put into camps. I also know that even before that they sterilized a bunch of africans in the ruhr area. I think a lot must have died from hunger, like in the netherlands in general. I think that those who survived must have found a place to live. My grandfather, then a young men, had to deal with his home being used first as a headquarters and later destroyed after coming home from his prison camp. This was oceanic theater though, not europe.

I think it is not accurate to say there was a genocide of 6 million jews, because the person who invented that number admitted it was a lie, just like the 5 million non jews was a lie. They are carefully chosen numbers for political effect.

I think disease played a large part and there is more than sufficient evidence of sonderaktion meaning murder of jews by machinegunning, considering they asked for more machine gun magazines for sonderaktion in documents (I forget the exact gun terminology rn). I remember laughing at someone in this thread who suggested it might be used for hunting.

They must like a very lead heavy diet.

I think I answered all your questions, let me know if I missed any.
Machine gun in that case being bullets for an mp40, pistol rounds. If you were a soldier starving on the eastern front, you wouldn't shoot rabbits or squirrels to eat?

Asking for ammo is isn't exactly evidence for anything, considering they were at war. It's just another example of someone using a normal request and stating it must be for another purpose. He tried it again with a request for earth moving equipment. As if there wasn't regular base activity that exists but only holocaust adjacent.

Again and again they falsely attribute something as being evidence for the Holocaust, instead of having any other meaning. Since they are required to regularly find the logistics for normal base operations and then logistics for holocaust operations on top of that, when we know that the exact supply problems were their chief failure in the war. Due to bombing and lack of oil production existing in Europe, which is why moved east in the first place.
 
Jews died in the camps. Historical fact. There's no denying that as we've seen the footage of their skeletal remains being bulldozed into open pits. What's in question is whether they were gassed or whether they died from starvation and typhus as a result of Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure.

Questioning whether the Jews were gassed doesn't mean denying Jews died in the camps. I personally believe that no Jews were gassed.

Why do you think both Britain and America have paid billions in compensation to Israel?
 
Another thing these half-wits do not understand is the concept of burden of proof. Just because you are making a positive assertion does not mean you always bear the "burden of proof." If I say slavery happened I do not bear a burden of proof because there is evidence for that all over the place.

I am happy to assume a burden of proof for the sake of this exercise, since I am a historian and the Holocaust is easily proved to non-cultists with an open mind. But it is not the case that, as a matter of reason, you bear no burden of proof for denial. And it is perfectly rational for regular people, non historians, to assume the Holocaust happened until you meet your burden of proof to show it did not, which would require miraculous evidence.
  • How many talks do you give annually? How many are specifically to Muslims, and how many are to non-Muslims?
  • How readily do Muslims accept the facts of the Holocaust?
  • Did any Muslim and Nazi leaders meet and congratulate each other for their mutual hatred of Jews?
  • What specific prejudices does the Muslim world have against world Jewry and Holocaust denial?
Answer the questions, coptic poopskin. You owe your loyalty to the West for sheltering you from Muslim savages, but you're a traitor. Why do you refuse to challenge Muslims, coward?
 
Jews died in the camps. Historical fact. There's no denying that as we've seen the footage of their skeletal remains being bulldozed into open pits. What's in question is whether they were gassed or whether they died from starvation and typhus as a result of Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure.

Questioning whether the Jews were gassed doesn't mean denying Jews died in the camps. I personally believe that no Jews were gassed.

Why do you think both Britain and America have paid billions in compensation to Israel?
LMAO. I am tempted to call this copypasta but these lines (starvation and typhus only bc "Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure") are too dumb to even be from 4chan. They probably come out of the 1988 boomer conspiracy theory VHS genre.

The Germans assigned Jews a starvation diet in the long before their infrastructural systems were laid to waste. Ghettoized Polish Jews were assigned a diet of approximately 200 calories a day (hundreds of thousands died from starvation and disease, but a great many survived through the black market). Hans Frank, the Head of the General Government (which presided over parts of Poland not formally annexed by Germany) described his policy of condemning 1.2 million ghettoized Polish Jews to death by hunger, and also mentioned that if they did not starve, this would lead to a speeding up of the anti-Jewish measures (i.e. deportations to camps).

See the Frank document attached. Or continue to live in your fantasy world where Hitler wanted all the Jews well-fed until Churchill stopped him.
 

Attachments

LMAO. I am tempted to call this copypasta but these lines (starvation and typhus only bc "Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure") are too dumb to even be from

He he seeing history speak rage about memes and 4chan each time, you just know he got really butthurt everytime he went there, just as he keeps getting butthurt in this thread.

Machine gun in that case being bullets for an mp40, pistol rounds. If you were a soldier starving on the eastern front, you wouldn't shoot rabbits or squirrels to eat?

Asking for ammo is isn't exactly evidence for anything, considering they were at war. It's just another example of someone using a normal request and stating it must be for another purpose. He tried it again with a request for earth moving equipment. As if there wasn't regular base activity that exists but only holocaust adjacent.

Again and again they falsely attribute something as being evidence for the Holocaust, instead of having any other meaning. Since they are required to regularly find the logistics for normal base operations and then logistics for holocaust operations on top of that, when we know that the exact supply problems were their chief failure in the war. Due to bombing and lack of oil production existing in Europe, which is why moved east in the first place.
It's something that you and I disagree on, I do think targeted machinegunning took place. We could get into it sometime, but I'd need to dive back into those sources.
 
You're just giving your personal impression about their reputation. The flat earth is easily disprovable with physics experiment you can repeat yourself. Conversely, it took a multi million dollar hollywood funded legal team to find only 5 errors in one of irving's historical books in a legal case.

If irving is so kooky, point to some of his kooky statements and show how they are easily proven wrong.

David cole was at one of the extermination camps for less than a day and by asking questions forced them to admit they were misleading visitors.
Let’s talk about trials and courts, then.

There have been numerous trials in many different countries, including Germany itself, where various people had to answer to accusations that they were part of the final solution. Some of these trials, like the Nuremberg trials, covered high ranking officers, in others rank-and-file Nazis were on trial for their involvement. Some of the defendants confessed, like Stangl and Suchomel, and we have those confessions on the record (Suchomels was taped.)

In each trial, evidence of the defendants participation was entered into a record available to both defense and prosecution. So there were opportunities for each to critique the veracity of the documents, and yet they held up, and the Nazi’s defense was “just following orders”, not denial.

Doesn’t this support the reality of the Holocaust? If there were issues with the veracity of the evidence, wouldn’t the defense have said so, instead of defending themselves by chain of command?

Here’s a David Irving hot take: Irving says that Hitler didn’t know about the Holocaust and would have opposed the Final Solution if he had known. How on earth does that fit in with Hitler’s public statements about Jews needing to be utterly annihilated?

David Irving lost his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt, meaning that he was found by the court to be a Holocaust denier who misrepresented history for ideological reasons. If there were troves of evidence proving the Holocaust never happened, why would Irving have not availed himself of it to clear his name?

  • How many talks do you give annually? How many are specifically to Muslims, and how many are to non-Muslims?
  • How readily do Muslims accept the facts of the Holocaust?
  • Did any Muslim and Nazi leaders meet and congratulate each other for their mutual hatred of Jews?
  • What specific prejudices does the Muslim world have against world Jewry and Holocaust denial?
Answer the questions, coptic poopskin. You owe your loyalty to the West for sheltering you from Muslim savages, but you're a traitor. Why do you refuse to challenge Muslims, coward?
This is called what-aboutery. You’re trying to change the subject to Muslims because you’ve no real response to History Speaks’ questions.

Jews died in the camps. Historical fact. There's no denying that as we've seen the footage of their skeletal remains being bulldozed into open pits. What's in question is whether they were gassed or whether they died from starvation and typhus as a result of Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure.

Questioning whether the Jews were gassed doesn't mean denying Jews died in the camps. I personally believe that no Jews were gassed.

Why do you think both Britain and America have paid billions in compensation to Israel?
Look, the gassings are a historical fact verified by eyewitnesses from the SS and the camp victims and the Ukrainians who were forced to supervise and murder Sonderkommandos.

Your personal belief is irrelevant, you weren’t born yet and you weren’t there. Those who were left primary sources that are impossible to refute; attempts to do so fail because there’s just too much evidence to the contrary

Edit to add: the US gives aid to Egypt and Saudi Arabia too; more than they give to Israel. Do you think this is because the US is trying to manage its allies in the Middle East (likely) or because Egypt and Saudi are part of the Jewish scam to reclaim Israel??? (Ridiculous!)
 
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David Irving lost his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt, meaning that he was found by the court to be a Holocaust denier who misrepresented history for ideological reasons
Yes on those 5 errors that they found that were so obscure it took a 10 million dollar team to find even those 5. None of them were big errors either.

The judge even commented that he was surprised that there was no documentary evidence for the gas chambers, and in the end relied on eye witness testimony only for them.

Just recently, johnny depp lost his defamation case in the UK too based solely on eye witness testimony. Then he went on to sue the eye witness (his ex wife) and anyone who watched it with half a brain could tell she was full of shit, and so did the jury.

It was found by UK court that it wasnt defamation to call him a wifebeater though.

Of course irving didn't have millions or another chance to sue, like depp did.
 
This is called what-aboutery. You’re trying to change the subject to Muslims because you’ve no real response to History Speaks’ questions.
You haven't read any of my posts in this thread. I'm Jewish; I don't doubt the veracity of the Holocaust. I want to know why Cockerill is making a career fighting the white societal fringes when all of Islam hates Jews and supported the Holocaust.

Preaching to the countries that fought WWII about mainstream accepted history is not a good career path, not when Muslims are much worse and much more numerous anti-Semites. Cockerill is too fat and lazy to leave easy mode of his "whites bad" lectures, and too cowardly to address the Muslim anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.
 
He he seeing history speak rage about memes and 4chan each time, you just know he got really butthurt everytime he went there.


It's something that you and I disagree on, I do think targeted machinegunning took place. We could get into it sometime, but I'd need to dive back into those sources.
Again, I don't think it's necessarily what happened, but its a possibility that's within the realm of logical human behavior. It's just an example of circumstances not being explored because the holocaust narrative only exists in decontextualized information.

They shift the narrative from millions of jews gassed and burned to, millions of jews shot and buried. One has a much higher standard of burden of proof and the other can be supported by insignificant findings (in their minds). Since they can point to various back line war activities as evidence that it must have happened.

They still lack the extremely large amounts of bodies in both cases. Then, they point to any dead body found in the area as proof it happened, despite being in a war zone that was pushed back and forth repeatedly.
 
You haven't read any of my posts in this thread. I'm Jewish; I don't doubt the veracity of the Holocaust. I want to know why Cockerill is making a career fighting the white societal fringes when all of Islam hates Jews and supported the Holocaust.

Preaching to the countries that fought WWII about mainstream accepted history is not a good career path, not when Muslims are much worse and much more numerous anti-Semites. Cockerill is too fat and lazy to leave easy mode of his "whites bad" lectures, and too cowardly to address the Muslim anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.
Well, I read at least one, the Muslim sneed. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you, but this is a Holocaust debate thread. There are a lot of places on the forum where you can complain about towelheads and sand niggers, but it seems irrelevant here.
 
Well, I read at least one, the Muslim sneed. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you, but this is a Holocaust debate thread. There are a lot of places on the forum where you can complain about towelheads and sand niggers, but it seems irrelevant here.
His topic is countering Holocaust denial. Wouldn't he be interested in countering arguments from the Muslim peoples? Or is he only interested in white people arguments denying the Holocaust? I'm sorry you can't accurately discern on and off topic very well.
 
Again, I don't think it's necessarily what happened, but its a possibility that's within the realm of logical human behavior. It's just an example of circumstances not being explored because the holocaust narrative only exists in decontextualized information.

They shift the narrative from millions of jews gassed and burned to, millions of jews shot and buried. One has a much higher standard of burden of proof and the other can be supported by insignificant findings (in their minds). Since they can point to various back line war activities as evidence that it must have happened.

They still lack the extremely large amounts of bodies in both cases. Then, they point to any dead body found in the area as proof it happened, despite being in a war zone that was pushed back and forth repeatedly.
“They” (who are they? A disparate bunch of hundreds of historians and documentarians who all happened to converge on the truth of the Holocaust?) have evidence of numerous bodies. Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec have giant piles of human cremains and ashes in situ, confirmed by archeological analysis (core drilling and soil samples). The physical evidence of bodies are there.

A lot of Jews were shot and buried, yes. But the method was ineffective, time consuming, and it drained morale. Gas vans were the next innovation; you put the passengers in the back and drive around until they die from CO poisoning. Then, gas chambers, using a cheap agent they already had (Zyklon B) that was more toxic to mammals than to lice.

I resent that you’re gonna call it “exploring” or “open mindedness” when you’re basically married to one narrative (Holocaust didn’t happen) despite all the historical evidence that the Holocaust did happen. It makes you look dumb.

@middlemarch: stop shitting up the thread about Muslims. Ty
 
Irving says that Hitler didn’t know about the Holocaust and would have opposed the Final Solution if he had known. How on earth does that fit in with Hitler’s public statements about Jews needing to be utterly annihilated?
We're not talking about a time where people tip toe'd around political correctness to sexpress themselves. Before hitler was elected, he once tried to violently coup and was imprisoned for it. Before this beerputsch, there was an attempted jewish communist revolution. There had been one in russia which completely demolished their aristocracy and later, their country.

It is only when you presume the holocaust happened that it did, that the two are connected. I don't believe there is any speech where hitler said anything like that after he got to power. And people promising rabblerousing things is as old as time. There have been decades of promises to limit immigration from politicians across the western world. Trump would never be popularly accepted among the rural right without his wall idea. Yet he spent almost none of his political capital persuing it once in power.

However, unlike trump, in a war, a lot more decisions automically fall in the hands of generals, soldiers and so on. So regardless of official orders, quite different action may be taking place.

If the only proof is his statements before he got to power, that is stunning. No orders, recordings or statements after he got to power to that effect, and even some evidence against it like his comments when he discovered kristallnacht?

Mind you, I personally don't relieve hitler from moral responsibility if it went as Irving suggests, but I don't see any strong evidence against this factual claims.
 
LMAO. I am tempted to call this copypasta but these lines (starvation and typhus only bc "Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure") are too dumb to even be from 4chan. They probably come out of the 1988 boomer conspiracy theory VHS genre.

The Germans assigned Jews a starvation diet in the long before their infrastructural systems were laid to waste. Ghettoized Polish Jews were assigned a diet of approximately 200 calories a day (hundreds of thousands died from starvation and disease, but a great many survived through the black market). Hans Frank, the Head of the General Government (which presided over parts of Poland not formally annexed by Germany) described his policy of condemning 1.2 million ghettoized Polish Jews to death by hunger, and also mentioned that if they did not starve, this would lead to a speeding up of the anti-Jewish measures (i.e. deportations to camps).

See the Frank document attached. Or continue to live in your fantasy world where Hitler wanted all the Jews well-fed until Churchill stopped him.

In fact the SS assigned Jews an excellent diet in Auschwitz. As it became clear that health and disease were a big problem clear orders were made to make sure everyone was fed, right down to details about tea coffee etc. Typical pedantic germans of course.
 
Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec have giant piles of human cremains and ashes in situ, confirmed by archeological analysis (core drilling and soil samples). The physical evidence of bodies are there
The recent treblinka soil sample study...

It's good that they filmed it, because you could see that they were in a lightly wooded nearby area where there was a christian cemetary (they did not admit this but their own video evidence supports it) When they found one human bone they stopped looking, because it is against the jewish faith to disturb graves.

Very scientific. Finding a bone at a cemetary is surely evidence of mass graves of huge proportions.
 
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