The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

so you're saying I knew exactly why you guys were doing corpse math but was pretending I didn't?

you don't think it's possible I was just trying to ground and focus a conversation I judged to be all over the place?


Wrong. I'm saying both sides should have burden of proof, and I don't see why it should be any other way.

If you accept that in the USSR Jews weren't deported when the ghettos there were liquidated but instead immediately shot, there's still the question of what happened to the 3 million believed to have been sent to death camps in Poland. If you're saying their fate is undeterminable, how can you be so certain gassing (far and away the best evidenced hypothesis) didn't happen? No strong evidence exists to contradict it, unlike w resettlement


if you don't want to engage w me that's fine, but I'll keep shit talking your posts if they're silly enough. eg it is noteworthy you never use any examples to back your arguments . i've posted lots of documents in this thread. you should be able to find one that fits the bill.


this is actually one of the first things I looked into when I became interested in the subject. Goebbels was propaganda minister and his diary is available. I checked to see if he had written anything in late 1942 in response to the widespread reports of hundreds of thousands being gassed at Belzec Sobibor and Treblinka

revisionist thomas dalton provides translations for all relevant entries

View attachment 3502645

Ok. Since you claim to be good faith, how about this;

Revisionist view - We both agree there's no evidence that millions of jews are in the ground anywhere.

Exterminationist view - We both agree that there's no evidence of millions of Jews being transported then existing in or near Russia.

This seems entirely fair to all sides. Agreed?

The people who deny this stuff deserve to burn in the Lake of Fire for eternity.

To be fair. I believe anyone who is aware of the issues yet still promotes the holocaust should answer to our creator and will do in due course.

 

[Chugger]

Ok. Since you claim to be good faith, how about this;

Revisionist view - We both agree there's no evidence that millions of jews are in the ground anywhere.

Exterminationist view - We both agree that there's no evidence of millions of Jews being transported then existing in or near Russia.

This seems entirely fair to all sides. Agreed?

mrolonzo this is so gloriously retarded I'm compelled to engage. the problem is I believe there is a lot of evidence for Jewish mass graves. Should I pretend otherwise?

 

[Stan]

mrolonzo this is so gloriously retarded I'm compelled to engage. the problem is I believe there is a lot of evidence for Jewish mass graves. Should I pretend otherwise?

he thinks the reason for the thick black smoke and piles of bones and ash is because Auschwitz was holding BBQ parties every day from 1942-45

Edit: @mrolonzo what’s the matter? Is the little baby mad cause I accurately described his favorite Holocaust Denial “scholar” as a crock?

Mattogno is a crock, though. Here’s a really really long and detailed workup about why. I know you can only handle boardbooks tho, wittle baby, so I’ll do my best to digest and summarize for you in the coming days using vocabulary at your grade level. Tooth fairy loves you sweetie.

 

[mgc]

A bit of meta on why denial is a dumb conspiracy theory, and will remain so unless miraculous new evidence of resettlement is found.

The basic problem is that millions of Jews disappeared in Nazi custody, in the Nazi camp and ghetto system*, from which with a negligible number of exceptions they were not allowed to leave under penalty of death.

This requires an explanation, because millions of people do not simply disappear.

We have an explanation—that they were killed through gassing, being worked to death, and other forms of deliberate mistreatment—with a ton of evidence-documentary, testimonial, forensic, and demographic evidence. The deniers have to put forward an explanation with (roughly) equally good evidence for it to be a rational alternative, i.e. one a person would believe in based on reason rather than cult membership or Nazi LARPing.

Yet the deniers have never been able to explain the disappearance of millions of Jews from the Nazi camp-ghetto system. Their explanations for this disappearance of millions has—ironically given their memes—zero physical evidence (there is no evidence of Jews being transited out of the camp and ghetto system to be resettled)—and is indeed absurd (a settlement of millions of people that existed in the 1940s would have physical, testimionial, and economic evidence. There would be old ladies and men talking about their childhood their today.)

So they are reduced to half-baked nitpicking about technical details. It is a nihilistic, anti-intellectual exercise. And it is steeped in charlatanism and quackery. This will only change if deniers can find evidence of "resettlement" (i.e. find their Jewish Atlantis) or come up with an alternative explanation for the disappearance of millions of Jews that has evidence.

*The Nazis liquidated the ghettos in 1943 and either killed the surviving Jews therein or sent them to camps.

 

[Stan]

A bit of meta on why denial is a dumb conspiracy theory, and will remain so unless miraculous new evidence of resettlement is found.

The basic problem is that millions of Jews disappeared in Nazi custody, in the Nazi camp and ghetto system*, from which they were not allowed to leave under penalty of death.

This requires an explanation, because millions of people do not simply disappear.

We have an explanation—that they were killed through gassing, being worked to death, and other forms of deliberate mistreatment—with a ton of evidence-documentary, testimonial, forensic, and demographic evidence. The deniers have to put forward an explanation with (roughly) equally good evidence for it to be a rational alternative, i.e. one a person would believe in based on reason rather than cult membership or Nazi LARPing.

Yet the deniers have never been able to explain the disappearance of millions of Jews from the Nazi camp-ghetto system. Their explanations for this disappearance of millions has—ironically given their memes—zero physical evidence (there is no evidence of Jews being transited out of the camp and ghetto system to be resettled)—and is indeed absurd (a settlement of millions of people that existed in the 1940s would have physical, testimionial, and economic evidence. There would be old ladies and men talking about their childhood their today.)

So they are reduced to half-baked nitpicking about technical details. It is a nihilistic, anti-intellectual exercise. And it is steeped in charlatanism and quackery. This will only change if deniers can find evidence of "resettlement" (i.e. find their Jewish Atlantis) or come up with an alternative explanation for the disappearance of millions of Jews that has evidence.

*The Nazis liquidated the ghettos in 1943 and either killed the surviving Jews therein or sent them to camps.

Agree wholeheartedly. Deniers in this thread focus on negationism (what they say did not happen) and rarely if ever on what they think did happen.

It’s insufficient to just say “nuhuh!!”, but none of the deniers or revisionists in this thread put forth a consistent explanation on what happened, because there isn’t one. (Besides the obvious, anyway, which would be that the Holocaust happened largely as described in the historical record.)

If the Holocaust was fake, surely there would be some evidence of the conspiracy, right?? There would be people who survived resettlement willing to come forward and attest to that. There would be a plausible explanation for Aktion Reinhard. Hitler’s own rhetoric would need to be impugned, as he repeatedly called for “die Vernichtung der Juedischen Rasse” in public remarks. (In German, that phrase is very explicit and can really only be interpreted to mean “the annihilation of the Jewish race”.)

All of this, and many more tpoics Im leaving off for reasons of space here but am happy to elaborate upon further, would need to have a consistent explanation less tortuous than “worldwide Jewish Illuminati conspiracy”.

 

[mrolonzo]

mrolonzo this is so gloriously retarded I'm compelled to engage. the problem is I believe there is a lot of evidence for Jewish mass graves. Should I pretend otherwise?

Ok that's fine but it's not just about you is it?

Isn't there someone you forgot to ask? Pic related.

he thinks the reason for the thick black smoke and piles of bones and ash is because Auschwitz was holding BBQ parties every day from 1942-45

Edit: @mrolonzo what’s the matter? Is the little baby mad cause I accurately described his favorite Holocaust Denial “scholar” as a crock?

Mattogno is a crock, though. Here’s a really really long and detailed workup about why. I know you can only handle boardbooks tho, wittle baby, so I’ll do my best to digest and summarize for you in the coming days using vocabulary at your grade level. Tooth fairy loves you sweetie.

This is glorious, awesome levels of seethe. Even said 'little baby' etc then posted the cut and paste manifesto addressed previously.

But let's consider what did happen, we've evidenced that Jews were taken good care of, that Jews were released, that Jews were given excellent medical care and that they could not have been executed by gas. We've also evidenced that the SS had orders not to harm Jews, which of course fits with said subsequent actions.

@Lemmingwise , what makes you think 6 million is wrong? And what makes you think mainstream historians aren’t trustable? I don’t think 6 million is “official”, isn’t it mainly 5-6 million?

And this is a bit of a joke question, but have any of you ever met a nazi who hated Jews so much that they argued the holocaust happened? Some of you spend a lot of time on Codoh and other forums, I’m curious if anyone like that ever came up.

There are alot of edge lords on /pol/ saying that but the nazis dont actually argue that when the actual debates occur.

 

[Aves]

@Lemmingwise , what makes you think 6 million is wrong? And what makes you think mainstream historians are wrong? I don’t think 6 million is “official”, isn’t it mainly 5-6 million?

And this is a bit of a joke question, but have any of you ever met a nazi who hated Jews so much that they argued the holocaust happened? Some of you spend a lot of time on Codoh and other forums, I’m curious if anyone like that ever came up.

 

[mgc]

@Lemmingwise , what makes you think 6 million is wrong? And what makes you think mainstream historians are wrong? I don’t think 6 million is “official”, isn’t it mainly 5-6 million?

And this is a bit of a joke question, but have any of you ever met a nazi who hated Jews so much that they argued the holocaust happened? Some of you spend a lot of time on Codoh and other forums, I’m curious if anyone like that ever came up.

Yeah this is another dumb denier lie. Historians do not consider you a "denier" for supporting estimates of under 6 million. Gerald Reitlinger estimated under 5 million deaths and is still widely respected, Hilberg founded the field of Holocaust studies and estimated 5.1 million deaths.

 

[Stan]

Ok that's fine but it's not just about you is it?

Isn't there someone you forgot to ask? Pic related.




This is glorious, awesome levels of seethe. Even said 'little baby' etc then posted the cut and paste manifesto addressed previously.

But let's consider what did happen, we've evidenced that Jews were taken good care of, that Jews were released, that Jews were given excellent medical care and that they could not have been executed by gas. We've also evidenced that the SS had orders not to harm Jews, which of course fits with said subsequent actions.



There are alot of edge lords on /pol/ saying that but the nazis dont actually argue that when the actual debates occur.

I don’t cut and paste, hon.

And your antisemitism is showing again; you really need to avoid posting “based Hitler” memes in this thread if you want anybody but other anti-Semites to take you seriously. As it is you ascribe to believe something incredible, which is that the Holocaust didn’t happen, but you can’t provide an alternate explanation for what did happen. When you run out of brain cells you post rants about the Jewish conspiracy and pictures of Hitler.

… it’s cringe.

Edit to add: post evidence that the “Nazis took good care of the Jews”. You repeatedly post dumb shit in the thread like “Mengele was a caring doctor fighting typhus in the camps” or “Aktion Reinhard was a financial program to steal crap from the Jews before they were deported East” and when I ask you for evidence you post an irrelevant quotation or nothing at all, Any evidence, I can wait.

 

[mgc]

I don’t cut and paste, hon.

And your antisemitism is showing again; you really need to avoid posting “based Hitler” memes in this thread if you want anybody but other anti-Semites to take you seriously. As it is you ascribe to believe something incredible, which is that the Holocaust didn’t happen, but you can’t provide an alternate explanation for what did happen. When you run out of brain cells you post rants and pictures of Hitler.

… it’s cringe.

Loronzo and his ilk (white nationalists and Nazi LARPers) do not love white people, they love Hitler. They will excuse any number of atrocities against white gentiles—last night, Zo excused the razing of Warsaw, even after the Polish resistance surrendered—so long as their daddy did it.

Pics related. The little (Polish gentile) girl was sent to Auschwitz because of Hitler's crackpot theories, where she perished miserably. She was sent to Auschwitz as part of a Nazi ethnic cleansing operation of "subhuman" Poles.

White nationalists excuse torture of Polish gentile children because their daddy did it.

 

[Aves]

@Lemmingwise

Another question, what exactly do you believe happened to Jews and other “subhuman” Europeans under the nazi regime? Do you think they were well fed until supply chains were stopped? Do you think they were resettled?

Because you say that mainstream historians are wrong, and I want to know why you think that. Do you have a better explanation for what happened to the Jews? Or do you just think historians are not trustable?

 

[Bonesjones]

Yeah this is another dumb denier lie. Historians do not consider you a "denier" for supporting estimates of under 6 million. Gerald Reitlinger estimated under 5 million deaths and is still widely respected, Hilberg founded the field of Holocaust studies and estimated 5.1 million deaths.

Guys this historian said they killed 8 unicorns instead of 10, see this makes our story true. He's not called a unicorn denier so the story must be right when you ask to prove unicorns exist at all!

 

[mgc]

Guys this historian said they killed 8 unicorns instead of 10, see this makes our story true. He's not called a unicorn denier so the story must be right when you ask to prove unicorns exist at all!

You have the wits of a chicken.

 

[Aves]

Guys this historian said they killed 8 unicorns instead of 10, see this makes our story true. He's not called a unicorn denier so the story must be right when you ask to prove unicorns exist at all!

I mean, history speaks isn’t wrong. You could say “only 5 million Jews were killed” and not be considered a denier.

Bonesjones, multiple censuses show millions of Jews disappearing from Germany and Eastern Europe after WWII. Where do you think they went? I’m just curious what you think happened in the holocaust. Lemmingwise agrees there was an intentional massacre, just that there were no gassings. Do you think there were no massacres in the first place?

 

[Stan]

Loronzo and his ilk (white nationalists and Nazi LARPers) do not love white people, they love Hitler. They will excuse any number of atrocities against white gentiles—last night, Zo excused the razing of Warsaw, even after the Polish resistance surrendered—so long as their daddy did it.

Pics related. The little (Polish gentile) girl was sent to Auschwitz because of Hitler's crackpot theories, where she perished miserably. She was sent to Auschwitz as part of a Nazi ethnic cleansing operation of "subhuman" Poles.

White nationalists excuse torture of Polish gentile children because their daddy did it.

So that’s why they are so married to the idea the Holocaust didn’t happen? Some of these ppl want to make National Socialism Great Again?

Yikes

 

[mgc]

Another thing these half-wits do not understand is the concept of burden of proof. Just because you are making a positive assertion does not mean you always bear the "burden of proof." If I say slavery happened I do not bear a burden of proof because there is evidence for that all over the place.

I am happy to assume a burden of proof for the sake of this exercise, since I am a historian and the Holocaust is easily proved to non-cultists with an open mind. But it is not the case that, as a matter of reason, you bear no burden of proof for denial. And it is perfectly rational for regular people, non historians, to assume the Holocaust happened until you meet your burden of proof to show it did not, which would require miraculous evidence.

 

[Lemmingwise]

@Stan

Historians aren't being "forced" to conform to the Holocaust narrative

Look at how things developed for irving, a historian, or david cole a documentary maker, and see that you're wrong.

Any historian that looks at what happened to irving would know it's career and reputation suicide to not conform.

 

[Bonesjones]

You have the wits of a chicken.

You don't understand remedial middle school science. I'd not throw stones in your house.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I mean, history speaks isn’t wrong. You could say “only 5 million Jews were killed” and not be considered a denier.

Considered by whom? Various holocaust denial laws word it as "downplaying or diminishment of the holocaust", so if it goes by the original definition of 6 million, it is denial technically under the law.

David Cole similarly only took issue with the gas chamber story, and he approached things quite openly, only unhappy with the answers that didnt make sense. At some point a cash bounty was placed on his whereabouts by an organisation. Not to send him a bouquet of flowers, I presume.

Go to wikipedia and the first thing you read about him is that he "gained fame as a holocaust denier". Only the gas chambers is what he contended with.

So, respectefully, in practice what you wrote is not true at all. Look at david cole's wikipedia page. Watch his documentary. Look at his tv debates. And see that I am correct. The bar for being called a holocaust denier are very very low.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Another question, what exactly do you believe happened to Jews and other “subhuman” Europeans under the nazi regime? Do you think they were well fed until supply chains were stopped? Do you think they were resettled?

Because you say that mainstream historians are wrong, and I want to know why you think that. Do you have a better explanation for what happened to the Jews? Or do you just think historians are not trustable?

I know they were persecuted, I know they were put into camps. I also know that even before that they sterilized a bunch of africans in the ruhr area. I think a lot must have died from hunger, like in the netherlands in general. I think that those who survived must have found a place to live. My grandfather, then a young men, had to deal with his home being used first as a headquarters and later destroyed after coming home from his prison camp. This was oceanic theater though, not europe.

I think it is not accurate to say there was a genocide of 6 million jews, because the person who invented that number admitted it was a lie, just like the 5 million non jews was a lie. They are carefully chosen numbers for political effect.

I think disease played a large part and there is more than sufficient evidence of sonderaktion meaning murder of jews by machinegunning, considering they asked for more machine gun magazines for sonderaktion in documents (I forget the exact gun terminology rn). I remember laughing at someone in this thread who suggested it might be used for hunting.

They must like a very lead heavy diet.

I think I answered all your questions, let me know if I missed any.