The Final Fantasy Thread

[Contemporary Jazz]

Ff12 is my favorite ff and ivalice is my favorite world, but it sounds like the anniversary will be forgotten because square is now filled with a bunch of cunts that simp for that fucking trash that is 13. Idk gow you can have Ito sitting on the sidelines for fucking talentless hack hamaguchi

Have you read about the FFXII sequel that was supposed to happen years ago? It was being developed by a Swedish studio then got cancelled because the niptards at Squeenix were being retarded faggots who couldn't overcome basic communication barriers, didn't bother paying the studio (forcing mass layoffs), and weirdest of all, required the game's code and music files to be sent as binary or text through fax to their legal department of all places. XII is my favorite too and it's borderline criminal how they've treated Ivalice games.

 

[Another Random]

imo IV stands out because it had decent villains up to then. While Xande was almost as distant as Cloud of Darkness. And primordial darkness had featured before then.

Zemus isn’t discussed at all until near the end. And then you don’t even fight him. He just turns into Zeromus, which is a different entity.

When FF Fans talk about the underwhelming final villain it’s always because there was a good villain right there.

Are you sure Zeromus is that different from Zemus? On one hand, sure, it ends up with the whole 'as long as there is hatred in the world i shall be back', but it still thinks and behaves like Zemus as far as "I hate everyone and I want all humans to perish".

 

[X Prime]

mentally ill core group of WoC fans

It still blows my mind that Tifa is identified with by those types. She is the second Whitest Asian imaginable.

Only second because Aya Brea is at the top.

 

[Berrakh]

Are you sure Zeromus is that different from Zemus? On one hand, sure, it ends up with the whole 'as long as there is hatred in the world i shall be back', but it still thinks and behaves like Zemus as far as "I hate everyone and I want all humans to perish".

I’m describing the rando final boss cliche from FF to a tee by reminding everyone that Zeromus isn’t even technically the Zemus guy who was built up a few hours prior.

III on the other hand feels like a prototype case that just didn’t want to be like I and II sticking to one villain by giving him a big power up near the end.

It still blows my mind that Tifa is identified with by those types. She is the second Whitest Asian imaginable.

Only second because Aya Brea is at the top.

I mean they’re more shallow than the guys who like her for her tits and who like the bustiest girls in any franchise they like, so obviously she just has to have black hair and Aerith just has to have green eyes to inspire this dynamic.

 

[X Prime]

I mean they’re more shallow than the guys who like her for her tits and who like the bustiest girls in any franchise they like, so obviously she just has to have black hair and Aerith just has to have green eyes to inspire this dynamic.

It just feels incredibly desperate for them to have a universally-considered-attractive character. The other one is what, Ada Wong?

 

[Retarded Weeb]

Are you sure Zeromus is that different from Zemus? On one hand, sure, it ends up with the whole 'as long as there is hatred in the world i shall be back', but it still thinks and behaves like Zemus as far as "I hate everyone and I want all humans to perish".

Zeromus is just the physical manifestation of Zemus's hatred. Zemus was so racist towards humans that even after he died, his racism came alive just to kick your ass. So technically, Zeromus isn't Zemus, but he is like an avatar for Zemus after his death, so whatever.

III on the other hand feels like a prototype case that just didn’t want to be like I and II sticking to one villain by giving him a big power up near the end.

FF1 was kind of a twist too though. For most of the game your only goal is to kill the 4 Chaos/Fiends, so as far as you know killing Tiamat should end the game. It's only after you kill them all that you find out energy is gathering to the Chaos Temple where someone in the past is actually behind them, and when you get to that final boss, surprise!, it's Garland from the beginning of the game powered up with the energy from the Crystals.

 

[Berrakh]

It just feels incredibly desperate for them to have a universally-considered-attractive character. The other one is what, Ada Wong?

Yeah. And Yor. All bleached by handsome blonde white men too. Hmm.

FF1 was kind of a twist too though. For most of the game your only goal is to kill the 4 Chaos/Fiends, so as far as you know killing Tiamat should end the game. It's only after you kill them all that you find out energy is gathering to the Chaos Temple where someone in the past is actually behind them, and when you get to that final boss, surprise!, it's Garland from the beginning of the game powered up with the energy from the Crystals.

Not a new villain though. They kept a villain around from the start and just used him as a twist that actually expanded the story. Zeromus and Zemus, as you guys say, make no practical difference but are two entities just ‘cause, and also replace Golbez as the villain. Xande and Cloud of Darkness are similar but technically interact with the party at the same relative time and CoD had a more prominent influence on the world.

I mean I won’t argue that it comes down to execution but I would argue you can’t easily hurt yourself keeping a villain mostly consistent, or at least known to you for a long time, but throwing a Necron at players can feel cheap.

Just as I would say FF usually does magically-inclined heroines. It isn’t always true but even the exceptions and edge-cases are pretty close.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

I mean I won’t argue that it comes down to execution but I would argue you can’t easily hurt yourself keeping a villain mostly consistent, or at least known to you for a long time, but throwing a Necron at players can feel cheap.

People get upset too easily about Necron in ways they can't fully articulate why it's a problem. It's not like Necron actually takes the villain position from Kuja since he's not revealed to be behind everything or anything like that. He was in fact, effectively made by Kuja. Nothing particularly changes about the villain situation by having you fight him, the way Zemus or even Cloud of Darkness does.

I mean, if you want to talk final bosses that are different from the main villain, Neo Exdeath is technically a different person from Exdeath, because the former is Exdeath fused with the void to form a new entity with a different mindset and goals. But Exdeath is pretty plainly the main villain of V from beginning to end, and how exactly Neo Exdeath works doesn't particularly change anything, so people don't really think about it. The same is really true of Zeromus and Zemus, but the issue is that Zemus himself is a complete nothing presence in the plot who's only revealed to exist just before the final dungeon, and yet is revealed to be technically behind everything. He negates any other villain in the plot, but is so forgettable that even crossover games just ignore him and use Golbez as IV's villain representative despite not even being evil.

 

[ChefKiss]

Have you read about the FFXII sequel that was supposed to happen years ago? It was being developed by a Swedish studio then got cancelled because the niptards at Squeenix were being retarded faggots who couldn't overcome basic communication barriers, didn't bother paying the studio (forcing mass layoffs), and weirdest of all, required the game's code and music files to be sent as binary or text through fax to their legal department of all places. XII is my favorite too and it's borderline criminal how they've treated Ivalice games.

Considering the studio also had a half dozen other games by other companies cancelled, their previous releases weren't great and the follow up studio they founded afterwards has done nothing since 2009 except diversity programs with groups like Pink programming and girlswhocode, I don't think that was a Square Enix problem

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

I mean I won’t argue that it comes down to execution but I would argue you can’t easily hurt yourself keeping a villain mostly consistent, or at least known to you for a long time, but throwing a Necron at players can feel cheap.

if your illiterate.
Necron has essentially "been with you the whole game", as its more or less an Eidolon (or more ominously some sort of Conceptual near-true god entity) embodying despair and nihilism, for all intents, it IS Despair, it IS the end, the pointless ends many reach and their despair made manifest.

people who complain it "came out of nowhere" don't understand the idea of fighting ideas not just people, Necron is very much an Idea, a mindset a concept, it says as much when it fights you, it lays out plain as day, this isn't an evil emperor or a space alien, this is The End itself.

 

[Berrakh]

your illiterate.
Necron has essentially "been with you the whole game", as its more or less an Eidolon (or more ominously some sort of Conceptual near-true god entity) embodying despair and nihilism, for all intents, it IS Despair, it IS the end, the pointless ends many reach and their despair made manifest.

people who complain it "came out of nowhere" don't understand the idea of fighting ideas not just people, Necron is very much an Idea, a mindset a concept, it says as much when it fights you, it lays out plain as day, this isn't an evil emperor or a space alien, this is The End itself.

K whatever. He could show up in many Final Fantasies then. Because Life and Loss are often themes.
He just feels cheap and FF9 felt deliberate in its relative human-scale simplicity so having such a foe comes across as a tradition for its own sake. You will never convince me that you prefer the game ending with Necron instead of finding its resolution with Kuja or something intimately tied to Kuja. Since Necron exists people feel like defending him because they like FFIX (and not as Square spinning Straw into Bronze, when we unrealistically demanded Gold)

Also, frankly, Fighting the Symbolism reminds me of GOT’s ending where the dragon burns the Iron Throne in an obvious attempt at a broader gesture that fell flat. Things should be bigger than symbols. Superman works best when he still feels like a real guy who believable embodies his status as a living symbol.

People get upset too easily about Necron in ways they can't fully articulate why it's a problem. It's not like Necron actually takes the villain position from Kuja since he's not revealed to be behind everything or anything like that. He was in fact, effectively made by Kuja. Nothing particularly changes about the villain situation by having you fight him, the way Zemus or even Cloud of Darkness does.

I mean, if you want to talk final bosses that are different from the main villain, Neo Exdeath is technically a different person from Exdeath, because the former is Exdeath fused with the void to form a new entity with a different mindset and goals. But Exdeath is pretty plainly the main villain of V from beginning to end, and how exactly Neo Exdeath works doesn't particularly change anything, so people don't really think about it. The same is really true of Zeromus and Zemus, but the issue is that Zemus himself is a complete nothing presence in the plot who's only revealed to exist just before the final dungeon, and yet is revealed to be technically behind everything. He negates any other villain in the plot, but is so forgettable that even crossover games just ignore him and use Golbez as IV's villain representative despite not even being evil.

Necron just feels like they wanted a cosmic confrontation. He gets talked about a lot because he’s probably the least damaging to the overall health of the game. Compare him to Ultima from 16 if you want a worse example.

As for the Zemus stuff I’m just not sure what you think I’m saying. Since you’ve reiterated everything I said about why Zemus feels like the birth of the cliche while Xande and CoD don’t.

 

[Love Is Blue]

I mean they’re more shallow than the guys who like her for her tits

 

[Berrakh]

View attachment 8735542

For the record I don’t think it’s a crime or anything. The truth is that liking someone for being healthy (basically) is more good-hearted than seemingly less shallow motives.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

As for the Zemus stuff I’m just not sure what you think I’m saying. Since you’ve reiterated everything I said about why Zemus feels like the birth of the cliche while Xande and CoD don’t.

I think the disconnect here is that I don't think Zemus started a cliche or pattern. Like, what other FF has the plot get hijacked by a new villain at the end like that? The closest I can think of is Ultimecia in VIII, and even she is introduced earlier and has more presence in the plot than Zemus (because of the difference in how their mind control works).
Chaos is a twist, but Garland is introduced at the start, so if that discounts him then it discounts him.
Cloud of Darkness hijacks the final boss fight and main villain role, but if you think it doesn't really count because Xande doesn't have much more presence in the plot before the final dungon than CoD does then ok.
Neo Exdeath is technically different than Exdeath, but as I'm guessing we agree with, that doesn't really count since it's basically the same guy, like Zemus and Zeromus.
Kefka and Sephiroth are established as the main villain early on and that never changes. (Technically, there's a twist with Kefka since if you were playing VI completely blind you might think he's a secondary villain to the Emperor as the main villain, who's just in your face more, but that still means Kefka is your biggest antagonist from start to finish and he's established as main villain halfway in.)
Kuja is the main villain for most of the game, a while Necron hijacks the final boss fight, he doesn't hijack the plot or main vilain position.
I guess Yu Yuvon could count, but it's not really a twist, more a last hour reveal as to what exactly the core of Sin is. Sin, Seymour, and the Yevon church are the main antagonists in their own ways from start to finish.
Vayne is established as the main antagonist fairly early and there's no twist on that.
I admit, I've haven't finished or played XIII, XV, and XVI, so I can't totally speak for them, but from I understand I don't think XIII or XV count.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

K whatever. He could show up in many Final Fantasies then. Because Life and Loss are often themes.
He just feels cheap and FF9 felt deliberate in its relative human-scale simplicity so having such a foe comes across as a tradition for its own sake. You will never convince me that you prefer the game ending with Necron instead of finding its resolution with Kuja or something intimately tied to Kuja. Since Necron exists people feel like defending him because they like FFIX (and not as Square spinning Straw into Bronze, when we unrealistically demanded Gold)

Also, frankly, Fighting the Symbolism reminds me of GOT’s ending where the dragon burns the Iron Throne in an obvious attempt at a broader gesture that fell flat. Things should be bigger than symbols. Superman works best when he still feels like a real guy who believable embodies his status as a living symbol.

well it has been summoned two times, and the 2nd time in 14 confirms what I'm saying.

Endwalker mainly confronts the ideas present in FF9, with Dawntrail doing the flipside of it, and Endwalker did it well, with you also fighting the concept of Despair, with its adhoc-Avatar being Endsinger.

EDIT*
Also I have to add, almost every single Final Fantasy is a clash if ideals and concepts, none of them are face value, at least not past 4, 12 is not just a band of people fighting an Empire Usurper, 7 is not just the group fighting a science experiment...

 

[Another Random]

As for the Zemus stuff I’m just not sure what you think I’m saying. Since you’ve reiterated everything I said about why Zemus feels like the birth of the cliche while Xande and CoD don’t.

I think you are saying something incorrect and either intentionally misreading us or not making a clear argument.

Either your problem is that Final Fantasy games have a tendency to have twist villains whose presence is fully felt only at the finale, in which case you are right to say Zemus's appearance at the end of FF4 is not the best way to make him be a mastermind, or you are arguing that Final Fantasy relies too much on having the final boss be a completely different new guy, which does not apply to Zeromus because it's literally Zemus pulling an Obi-Wan and letting Golbez and FuSoYa kill him so he can go full spirit. His soul is so full of evil and hatred that he becomes an embodiment of it, but this is the exaxt same as the Emperor of Hell from FF2 being an evil ghost thing. By comparison, Xande and Cloud of Darkness are NOT the same being, neither are Jenova and Sephiroth or Kuja and Necron [for the examples I care to mention].

 

[Berrakh]

Endwalker mainly confronts the ideas present in FF9, with Dawntrail doing the flipside of it, and Endwalker did it well, with you also fighting the concept of Despair, with its adhoc-Avatar being Endsinger.

EDIT*
Also I have to add, almost every single Final Fantasy is a clash if ideals and concepts, none of them are face value, at least not past 4, 12 is not just a band of people fighting an Empire Usurper, 7 is not just the group fighting a science experiment...

I can’t comment on 14 but the best villains in the franchise are symbolic without being symbols themselves. I think that’s why Necron felt like he was out of step.

Sephirotj and Kefka represent things while being characters for ex.

I think the disconnect here is that I don't think Zemus started a cliche or pattern.

Your mileage may vary and that’s fine.

As a storytelling device, where the climax goes to a bad guy who feels distant and unearned, I would say IV does. For the reasons we agree. We get a new villain controlling the old one and even he changes forms and considers himself a new entity. That’s like the standard. Presumably the difference is that Zeromus would kill the Moon People too. Not just Earthlings.

I would count V because the dialogue does imply that Neo-Exdeath has a different motivation (to destroy all) and the old Exdeath was absorbed. You can disagree here but it doesn’t come across like Exdeath just assuming his final form by being usurper/skinsuited. Exdeath wanted to rule by becoming a living WMD, but not actually destroy everything.

6 and 7 have the most iconic villains, who buck this trend. With Sephiroth even assuming control of Jenova through his Will.

Ultimecia does feel tacked on to me but it’s hardly why that game doesn’t click. She does follow the pattern of a secret villain who is either released or was behind everything but also doesn’t feel that different from the big sub-villains. However it is at least spaced out so you can warm up to it.

9 has Necron. He isn’t similar to Kuja so you can at least argue we get something in the trade.

Yu Yevon. He is tied into the Lore in a way that feels essential. However his boss fight is bad enough that Braska’s Final Aeon feels more fitting thematically just by dint of that.

Vayne transforms into the Undying but as far as I know any significance to that begins and ends with the name.

13 has Barthandalus doing bad but Orphan being the real power. I don’t know if this really counts or just superficially fits the pattern. And idc about the sequels to know.

And 16 pulls Ultima when the Dominant of Odin fit the attempt at being down-to-earth.

It’s like the magical heroines. Not always the case but it’s wild how often they do it even when it doesn’t seem like they want to.

I think you are saying something incorrect and either intentionally misreading us or not making a clear argument.

Either your problem is that Final Fantasy games have a tendency to have twist villains whose presence is fully felt only at the finale, in which case you are right to say Zemus's appearance at the end of FF4 is not the best way to make him be a mastermind, or you are arguing that Final Fantasy relies too much on having the final boss be a completely different new guy, which does not apply to Zeromus because it's literally Zemus pulling an Obi-Wan and letting Golbez and FuSoYa kill him so he can go full spirit. His soul is so full of evil and hatred that he becomes an embodiment of it, but this is the exaxt same as the Emperor of Hell from FF2 being an evil ghost thing. By comparison, Xande and Cloud of Darkness are NOT the same being, neither are Jenova and Sephiroth or Kuja and Necron [for the examples I care to mention].

The thing that makes me “wrong” Is not Taste and Role in the Narrative but the Lore being slightly different even as the story fits a common structure at these points. Figures.

I also don’t really consider it a problem. It’s just why I would consider IV part of FF’s Origins instead of when the series really ran with its identity.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

I can’t comment on 14 but the best villains in the franchise are symbolic without being symbols themselves. I think that’s why Necron felt like he was out of step.

Sephirotj and Kefka represent things while being characters for ex.

14 has arguably the strongest narrative in the franchise, it had its bumps, but Shadowbringers and Endwalker is the best they've basically ever done, Dawntrail had the Lead writer of the last two leave for other projects and an immediate nosedive in quality.

The main theme of the 10 year plot is Hope vs Despair, you being the big hopebringer, the ultimate "does the impossible" big time hero, the quintessential Hero's Journey protag, more so than almost any Final Fantasy before it, and all the villains in each major arc are either afflicted, or avatars of Despair.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

I would count V because the dialogue does imply that Neo-Exdeath has a different motivation (to destroy all) and the old Exdeath was absorbed. You can disagree here but it doesn’t come across like Exdeath just assuming his final form by being usurper/skinsuited. Exdeath wanted to rule by becoming a living WMD, but not actually destroy everything.

It's true that Neo-Exdeath isn't the same as Exdeath for those reasons. I pointed them out myself before. But I don't think it counts really as hijacking the villain role at the end because it doesn't really change anything from a "narrative feel" perspective. Neo-Exdeath came about because of what Exdeath was doing, and is made from Exdeath, and it only exists for this one boss fight that happens immediately after the final Exdeath fight (so it feels like one big fight with two phases). I would view Necron as being almost the same, people focus on him more because he's an entirely separate entity from Kuja and given more build-up in the scene between the Kuja and Necron fights.

Yu Yevon. He is tied into the Lore in a way that feels essential. However his boss fight is bad enough that Braska’s Final Aeon feels more fitting thematically just by dint of that.

I think pretty much everyone agrees that Braska's Final Aeon is the "real" final boss, and Yu Yevon is just a playable cutscene. Like the very last Sephiroth fight in VII where you just select Omnislash and automatically win. It's another reason why usually go with Jecht as the villain representative for X even though he wasn't evil (the other is that he has a more direction connection to Tidus, whereas Seymour is more of a foil to Yuna).

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

Seymour is more of a foil to Yuna

and he's lame, his motivation is retarded and it doesn't feel like he ACTUALLY cares about releasing the people of Spira from despair by killing them all, he comes across as malicious, smug, and duplicitous even when explaining his actual motives.