The Final Fantasy Thread

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I mostly agree except it's 5 through 10.
The funny thing is I think there's a lot of room to credibly disagree with this, and I can't call any single opinion bad. I think the magic of the series changing mechanics and narratives from game to game is that no single FF obsoletes another, and I personally consider the first 12 Final Fantasies, as a whole, probably one of if not the greatest run of a game series. For all of the first 12 entries, there's at least some kind of defensible reason I can claim that every game does at least one thing better than the others (though some certainly compel my attention to replay them more than others), and there's a valid reason to at least try to play them all, as even if one isn't to your taste, those on either side of it might be. It truly is an evergreen series.

Even if we're thinning it down, I gotta vouch for IV being included.

Completely putting aside the "cultural relevance" argument, I think one of its utmost virtues is that I think it has a stronger, more focal core theme than most games in the series (the value of forgiveness and vengeance) and it does a brilliant job of hitting that theme from different angles (Cecil's struggle to forgive himself, Tellah's inability to let go of his vengeance leading to his death, Cecil's internal struggle to forgive Golbez despite it being hypocritical not to after giving himself a second chance, etc). I also think it paces remarkably, clocking in at a slim 18-20 hours (longer on a first playthrough, but still), and there's plenty of brilliant subtextual stuff, like how The Red Wings' theme, aside from being a brilliant tune in its own right, is gradually recontextualized over time from a motif describing the reach of Baron's might to the anthem of Cecil's resolution to right what's wrong (and the fact that it has that variant with the slamming trumpets as its opening cue)... I dunno, in spite of some bits of it being a bit flat, even putting aside the "for a 1991 game", I think it really holds up. I think there might not be another game I've replayed more.

Looking at it in a vacuum maybe but people are pretty pissed off with a lot of full price remakes/remasters coming out lately and not including extra content only to try and sell it back to you later on. There has been a pattern of "Oh we just remade the base version of the game, the extra stuff that was added later? You'll have to pay more for that" and people are understandably pretty angry about it.
and it's especially bad when much smaller games like Front Mission remake include whole extra full game scenarios, difficulty modes, QOL updates etc a bigger game not delivering feels even less forgivable
Speaking just for myself, I think the issue that lies at the heart of this and many other things is that whether or not I even like the stuff that WOTL added to the original (I adore its script and its cutscenes, don't get me wrong, I am an enormous Alexander O. Smith stan), remasters that choose not to include all the content of prior releases create an unfortunate situation where there's no true best version of a given game. It makes it hard to tell someone which version of a game to play, because you have several different ones, all with their own merits. Topically, I think FFIV gets it the worst - there's so many versions of it, and the changes range from content, to game balance, to features, to localization/script differences. There really is no version of that game I can definitively point to and say "this one has it all", and I think JRPG remasters sorta struggle with this in general.

My platonic ideal for a remaster is a game that contains all the features of every version, and beyond the new stuff they added to it, offers granular settings to select which version of every feature (up to and including not having it if it wasn't in the original release) to have. That way people could essentially tailor their ideal version of a given experience, and we don't have to worry about the fear of a new release with different content completely supplanting the original (or worse, being used as a justification to make it inaccessible).

That is, the objective of any remaster of a game should be to provide something that is inarguably the most complete version of the game in question. There should be no way I can come at it and say "it lacks X from Y release".

Usually I'm skeptical of these, but I've played the original so many times that I can see the differences and know they're legit.
Definitely. I think FF7's original translation is by far the worst in the series, not because it's consistently low-quality (though it absolutely has some completely abysmal bits), but because it's conspicuously lacking in just the right places at just the right times such that the plot becomes completely incomprehensible. FF7 is already the most deliberately opaque plot in the series due to its nonlinear storytelling, its unreliable narrators, and a lot of its generally strange and sorta-eldritch theming, so the language providing a further layer of obfuscation makes it very easy to just check out and fall off with the whole thing. I think merely playing through Midgar and staying awake-enough at the wheel to recognize all the times that you don't actually really comprehend how what's being said relates to the situation is a real eye-opener, and the other year I side-by-sided the script with the Japanese one on a replay only to realize that yeah, the original English release is such an incomplete experience that I struggle to call it really playing FF7.

They didn't even realize that Cloud had a catchphrase, for god's sake!
 
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They didn't even realize that Cloud had a catchphrase, for god's sake!
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Oh, so with Final Fantasy VII. I'm replaying the PC version with a "improved" translation. I think I got it at Qhimm. So far it is really good and adds a lot more to the game than the original English translation. Usually I'm skeptical of these, but I've played the original so many times that I can see the differences and know they're legit.
Beacause? It was done by a dumb weeb like most of these things. No moogle it is MOGURI because I eat POKKI in my PINKU BENTO BOX

Whatever floats your boat though. Also it made some abilities break the damage cap.
 
Yeah, their translation team during that whole period really wasn't the greatest.
Oh, I thought you were making reference to the "whatever" meme that people commonly attribute to FF8 - that seems to be the stronger association of that word, I don't really see it used in relation to Cloud much.

You are right, though, aside from the revolving door of translators they had, even up through FF8 their localizers were on record having to use a Gameshark to hack a text dump out of the game because they weren't given any actual raw data to work with, there's some crazy stories in that.

#WoolseyDidNothingWrong
 
Oh, I thought you were making reference to the "whatever" meme that people commonly attribute to FF8 - that seems to be the stronger association of that word, I don't really see it used in relation to Cloud much.

You are right, though, aside from the revolving door of translators they had, even up through FF8 their localizers were on record having to use a Gameshark to hack a text dump out of the game because they weren't given any actual raw data to work with, there's some crazy stories in that.

#WoolseyDidNothingWrong
Yeah, the joke was that their translation work was done so poorly they missed Cloud's catchphrase and accidentally gave Squall the wrong one.
 
Honestly, I don't like or trust any English translations at this point. They always have problems and needless changes somewhere. And I'm always coming across new ones if I look at things.

Not too long ago I watched the scene from FFX where the party first enters Mushroom Rock Road because I was curious what the exact Japanese wording was for Seymour's "pretend you didn't see it" and "pretend I didn't say it" lines were (since I always thought that part was funny). During that scene, Wakka freaks out and asks why Seymour is supporting the Crusaders even though they're using Al Bhed machina against Yevon's teachings. After Yuna gives her answer which isn't good enough for Wakka, he asks Lulu to say something. In English she says "Hmm... I can only speculate." in this sort of sarcastic tone of voice which seems to get across that she doesn't think his concerns are worth giving an answer to. In Japanese, she says ……ただの視察じゃない? which would mean something like "...Perhaps he's only observing?" and she says it in a tone of voice that sounds like she's trying to quickly come up with a sincere answer to calm Wakka down.

Obviously, something went wrong here, and I think I know what it is. I think the translator was confused about the word 視察 (shisatsu), which means "to inspect or watch over a site where something is happening or happened", and for some reason was thinking either of 考察 (kousatsu), another word with the kanji 察 in it that means "to ponder or consider facts to gain a deeper understanding", or just the word 察し (sasshi), which means "speculate" or "draw a conclusion from known facts". Since the sentence doesn't contain any pronouns in it, perhaps the translator got confused about who the ただの視察 (simple observation) belonged to, and thought Lulu was talking about herself somehow. And actually now that I write that, instead of confusing 視察 for one of those above words, what could have happened is the translator looked up 視察 in a dictionary and got "observation" as a translation, and didn't understand that it means a very specific type of observation or inspection, not observation in the sense of "an insight or realization about what you're looking at". In any case, his lack of understanding caused him to twist the sentence in his head to it being Lulu saying she only has a simple speculation about what's happening, which he figured was some kind of blow off of Wakka's question, hence the sarcastic line read.

I wasn't even looking for any mistranslations when I watched that scene, and I found an obvious one. This always keeps happening. These sorts of mistranslations where the translator didn't understand a word or turn of phrase and got confused by lack of pronouns and so twists the sentence into some incorrect guesslation are all over video games, both ones that are widely considered to have bad translations and ones considered to have good translations.
 
I played the recommended translation patch for FF7 and it told me nothing I didn't already know. i really do think you don't need translation patches if you're able to parse anything without it being told to you. Like I knew Cloud was being drawn to Sephiroth, who was really Jenova, because the Jenova Cells wanted to reunite and exploited his desire to get revenge for that purpose. And that was what the recommendation was based on. And some other stuff about that whole subplot but it's not coming to me right now, ironically.

Also it made a very ballsy fanon translation at the end that's technically correct but isn't true to the character if you know what happens next in AC.

There's really only one plot point I failed to intuit by playthrough 3 (years apart) and it really is a blink-and-you-miss-it type of thing.
 
Except for getting Terra and Celes' first dialogue entirely wrong in a way that's not really explainable even if he was just translating string dumps.
Yeah, I was half-joking. I get that his dialogue deserved some rightful dings for its accuracy, but I also think he was kind of ahead of the curve in terms of the flavor he lent to the scripts he worked on and the way he made them feel more comfortable and native in their target language.

I wasn't even looking for any mistranslations when I watched that scene, and I found an obvious one. This always keeps happening. These sorts of mistranslations where the translator didn't understand a word or turn of phrase and got confused by lack of pronouns and so twists the sentence into some incorrect guesslation are all over video games, both ones that are widely considered to have bad translations and ones considered to have good translations.
J2E is particularly ripe for this, since they're two of the least directly-compatible languages in the world. On a good day you have the best odds with a native speaker of the opposite language, but then that creates issues with the nuances of the target language, flipping the problem on its head. It's a really tough situation, and so yeah, I'm always surprised with how much richer a lot of text is with meaning when you see it in its native tongue, and that's just the shit that a plebian like me can see.

Makes me wonder if the way to go is to have translation done by two-man teams fluent in the opposing language that can directly collaborate and clarify with each other.

Also it made a very ballsy fanon translation at the end that's technically correct but isn't true to the character if you know what happens next in AC.
In fairness, FF7 and AC are 8 years detached and all of the FF7 EU stuff is constantly catching flak from purists for mischaracterizing the cast relative to the original text.


Also, one more little tangent:
Completely putting aside the "cultural relevance" argument, I think one of its utmost virtues is that I think it has a stronger, more focal core theme than most games in the series (the value of forgiveness and vengeance) and it does a brilliant job of hitting that theme from different angles (Cecil's struggle to forgive himself, Tellah's inability to let go of his vengeance leading to his death, Cecil's internal struggle to forgive Golbez despite it being hypocritical not to after giving himself a second chance, etc).
I totally forgot one of if not the most compelling iteration of this, in Kain - people clown on my man for being mind-controlled twice, but it's established later in the plot (requiring you to read backwards into it) that Zemus can only prey on the wills of those who have conflict and evil in their heart. The central tragedy of Kain, true to his Biblical etymology, is that he envies and resents Cecil, primarily jealous of his relationship with Rosa, and it gives him a lot of internal strife, because he feels at once guilty of harboring that emotion for his best friend (contradictory thoughts can co-exist in people and I think this is a pretty mature iteration of it), but also can't keep himself from feeling that way. He's got this conflict he's dealing with for the entire game, and the best he can do is grey rock about it and shove his emotions down, because it's preferable to causing conflict with the people he values most, which justifies his quieter, less-outspoken personality. He struggles to forgive himself for it, and that's what opens the door for him to be controlled by Zemus.

People wanna call him a backstabber, but striving to do the right thing in spite of carrying all that shit on your back makes his tragedy a lot more commendable, especially since his failure to square with it leads to having to grovel for forgiveness from his friends and rotting out his sense of self-worth to the degree that he just tells them the last time "hey, if I do that shit again, kill me, it's not worth it". Just the same, there's one more note of the forgiveness theme in that the party as a whole has to decide to forgive him in spite of the fact that he's caused as much trouble as he has (under duress, but they didn't know that).

It's really unfortunate because as with everything we've been talking about above, a cleaner localization that preserved that subtext a little bit better would've brought out what I see as probably the game's most compelling subplot. I have a huge amount of respect for any story that's willing to be subtle enough about something that it risks people not getting it, I think messages you have to uncover are stronger for it, and they respect the audience a lot more.
 
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Yeah, I was half-joking. I get that his dialogue deserved some rightful dings for its accuracy, but I also think he was kind of ahead of the curve in terms of the flavor he lent to the scripts he worked on and the way he made them feel more comfortable and native in their target language.
Yeah, I honestly doubt he expected people to be picking over accuracy issues thirty years later.

It's hard to fault him for the Celes/Terra thing. As far as I know he was given game sequences out of order and so wouldn't know that was big foreshadowing of the upcoming event.

He did a good job with Kefka as well, whose speech mannerisms where he changes up his personal pronouns aren't possible to translate into English without it sounding really fucking weird.
 
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