The Final Fantasy Thread

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Final Fantasy was sort of the introduction to child-me to the idea that if a story is told with sufficient pacing (JRPG drip feed), participation, and media, you can find yourself accepting it even if it doesn't make much sense when you start actually thinking about it.

In FF7, for example, you're basically playing as the bad guys. Your hippie eco-terrorist group is just about as aimlessly destructive as it's namesake. At one point, the protagonists foil the big evil corporation's evil plot to ... uh ... save the world from the giant asteroid of doom ... for reasons. The nominal bad guy faction (Shinra?) (aside from one legitimately evil plot from some military holdover of the old regime) is mostly just self-interested and unethical in its research programs. They like things like not having giant Kaiju stomp their cities, not having giant asteroids destroy their planet, not having rogue supersoldiers going on murder sprees, and not having mewling eco nuts blowing up their powerplants. And unlike the protagonists, they'll take constructive action to attempt to effect their desires.

I mean, if you lived in a world that ocassionally manifests giant freaking kaiju to uncaringly wipe out the works of man, you might be a little less than concerned that your main energy technology is throttling dear "mother" nature.

Wasn't Shinra literally killing the planet though?

 

[Michael Wade]

16 is.... Ok. but in my mind it is undoubtably something quickly pumped out to warm the bench for nomura.

Nobody is going to remember this after Rebirth comes out.

 

[ShiftyBoi]

Final Fantasy was sort of the introduction to child-me to the idea that if a story is told with sufficient pacing (JRPG drip feed), participation, and media, you can find yourself accepting it even if it doesn't make much sense when you start actually thinking about it.

In FF7, for example, you're basically playing as the bad guys. Your hippie eco-terrorist group is just about as aimlessly destructive as it's namesake. At one point, the protagonists foil the big evil corporation's evil plot to ... uh ... save the world from the giant asteroid of doom ... for reasons. The nominal bad guy faction (Shinra?) (aside from one legitimately evil plot from some military holdover of the old regime) is mostly just self-interested and unethical in its research programs. They like things like not having giant Kaiju stomp their cities, not having giant asteroids destroy their planet, not having rogue supersoldiers going on murder sprees, and not having mewling eco nuts blowing up their powerplants. And unlike the protagonists, they'll take constructive action to attempt to effect their desires.

I mean, if you lived in a world that ocassionally manifests giant freaking kaiju to uncaringly wipe out the works of man, you might be a little less than concerned that your main energy technology is throttling dear "mother" nature.

Shit man, you got a point.

big brain over here

(I'd also like to point out that aside from Ultima, the kaiju only attack Shinra specifically)

 

[Soycast Guy]

So now that I’m finally able to post on here again, I’m gonna share my opinion on FFXVI that no one asked for.

Great music, great gameplay, good story overall, likable characters. My big issues are the pacing which can be horrendous and Ultima sucked ass. Despite the problems people have with FFXV, I’d say most people agree that Ardyn carried that game. Ultima though in FFXVI reminds me of an antagonist from the first 5 games. The team has already shown they can write good villains with Emet-Selch, but this wasn’t one of them. Although this game did have the heavensward writer, and King Thordan was just ok. Anyway that’s my take.

 

[Baraadmirer]

Playing FFXVI in measured amounts, so I'm really, really behind: I'm only a little past the Phoenix Gate dungeon. Gotta say I've mixed feelings on the game (though leaning more towards positive). I quite enjoy the action overhaul, and the cinematic moments are one of the most eye-catching things I've ever experienced. The departure from the typical JRPG bishounen design was a welcome change (looking at you, Clive and Cid), and the voice acting was pretty decent. Haven't seen too many side quests so far where I'm at, which makes it feel very linear. It gets better later?

 

[Soycast Guy]

Playing FFXVI in measured amounts, so I'm really, really behind: I'm only a little past the Phoenix Gate dungeon. Gotta say I've mixed feelings on the game (though leaning more towards positive). I quite enjoy the action overhaul, and the cinematic moments are one of the most eye-catching things I've ever experienced. The departure from the typical JRPG bishounen design was a welcome change (looking at you, Clive and Cid), and the voice acting was pretty decent. Haven't seen too many side quests so far where I'm at, which makes it feel very linear. It gets better later?

When it comes to gameplay it gets better as it goes on as you get more abilities, the story though gets worse as it goes on. Side quests are awful so skip them unless they have a + sign.

 

[The Fair Lady]

I'm going through the Chronolith Trials now and Jesus Christ the Phoenix and Garuda ones suck ass, Garuda's actually made my right arm sore from all the button mashing. Was nearing the point of rage quitting when I read that you can cheese them by spamming the Circle + four-hit Square combos and thank fuck for that, you get so much extra time on the clock.

So now that I’m finally able to post on here again, I’m gonna share my opinion on FFXVI that no one asked for.

Great music, great gameplay, good story overall, likable characters. My big issues are the pacing which can be horrendous and Ultima sucked ass. Despite the problems people have with FFXV, I’d say most people agree that Ardyn carried that game. Ultima though in FFXVI reminds me of an antagonist from the first 5 games. The team has already shown they can write good villains with Emet-Selch, but this wasn’t one of them. Although this game did have the heavensward writer, and King Thordan was just ok. Anyway that’s my take.

I didn't notice the pacing issues as much on my first playthrough but yeah, the game definitely has a set formula of giving you a bunch of story quests, a few mundane quests that are basically sidequests but mandatory, more story quests, the next Eikon battle, repeat.

Not many people are big on Ultima and I get why, especially after Ardyn. I liked his design but he was just another cliche god character who wants to reset the world.

Haven't seen too many side quests so far where I'm at, which makes it feel very linear. It gets better later?

Sidequests and gameplay do. Story kinda declines, but mostly at the end.

 

[Michael Wade]

Ultima made me miss Ardyn. He starts out cool, but his problem is he exactly what he is on the cover. A generic overtly logical, four armed fake god.

There is a TINY bit of emotion that comes from him at the end, but ultimately his backstory feels like a watered down version of the ascians. To the point where in my head I assumed he was an ascian that survived the sundering and went insane to make myself try and care. It's bad. they should have had one of the human enemy's be the final villain.

Ultima was simply too dry.

 

[The Fair Lady]

Ultima made me miss Ardyn. He starts out cool, but his problem is he exactly what he is on the cover. A generic overtly logical, four armed fake god.

There is a TINY bit of emotion that comes from him at the end, but ultimately his backstory feels like a watered down version of the ascians. To the point where in my head I assumed he was an ascian that survived the sundering and went insane to make myself try and care. It's bad. they should have had one of the human enemy's be the final villain.

Ultima was simply too dry.

I thought Anabella was being set up as the main villain, though I guess they meant for her to be a red herring just like "the hooded man." I know they made her kill herself because it was fitting for her character blah blah blah but it was still so lame. A hate sink like her deserved worse.

Hell, Barnabas wouldn't have been a bad candidate either if he'd been more fleshed out beyond a religious fanatic with an Oedipus complex.

 

[Soycast Guy]

Ultima made me miss Ardyn. He starts out cool, but his problem is he exactly what he is on the cover. A generic overtly logical, four armed fake god.

There is a TINY bit of emotion that comes from him at the end, but ultimately his backstory feels like a watered down version of the ascians. To the point where in my head I assumed he was an ascian that survived the sundering and went insane to make myself try and care. It's bad. they should have had one of the human enemy's be the final villain.

Ultima was simply too dry.

The ascians are the first thing I thought of with Ultima. A race that was mostly wiped out and the world doesn’t know of them, that is superior to humans in every way and can even take control of someone’s body, at least by way of influence. There’s even more I could list. Talk about a complete fucking copy and paste. At least shadowbringers gave me plenty of time to give a shit about the ascians.

Hell, Barnabas wouldn't have been a bad candidate either if he'd been more fleshed out beyond simply being a religious fanatic.

I thought Barnabas was the main villain based on the trailers before the game came out. If they properly wrote his character, he could’ve been one of the best Final Fantasy villains. But no we get Ascians with a new skin.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Ultima made me miss Ardyn. He starts out cool, but his problem is he exactly what he is on the cover. A generic overtly logical, four armed fake god.

This is a problem with Final Fantasy in general. Every game has to end with a generic doomsday villain as the main threat, and saving the world from that generic doomsday villain is basically the plot.

Sometimes this works because the villain is memorable and/or charismatic and has a strong presence felt through out the story (Kefka, Sephiroth, Ardyn, Exdeath). Many times, it just doesn't work. Final Fantasy 13 was a disaster in storytelling, shown by its uninteresting villains who work with convoluted nonsensical plans to frankly stupid ends. Xande was such a non-presence in Final Fantasy III that hardly anyone even remembers him, largely being replaced by Cloud of Darkness, who is even more generic as it isn't even mentioned till the very end of the game and final battle, and is given next to no motivation aside from being pure evil. Nobody remembers that Zemus was the main villain of Final Fantasy IV; everybody probably thinks its Golbez. Ultimecia was as generic as one could get, with no real motivation or character established, no backstory given, and wasn't even seen till the end of her game. Final Fantasy IX barely avoids this by virtue of having Kuja upstage Garland towards the end. Final Fantasy X's villains are so uninspiring, that Dissidia made Jecht the villain representative for the game.

The only mainline Final Fantasy game that attempted to not do the whole generic doomsday villain schtick was Final Fantasy XII.

 

[Michael Wade]

This is a problem with Final Fantasy in general. Every game has to end with a generic doomsday villain as the main threat, and saving the world from that generic doomsday villain is basically the plot.

Sometimes this works because the villain is memorable and/or charismatic and has a strong presence felt through out the story (Kefka, Sephiroth, Ardyn, Exdeath). Many times, it just doesn't work. Final Fantasy 13 was a disaster in storytelling, shown by its uninteresting villains who work with convoluted nonsensical plans to frankly stupid ends. Xande was such a non-presence in Final Fantasy III that hardly anyone even remembers him, largely being replaced by Cloud of Darkness, who is even more generic as it isn't even mentioned till the very end of the game and final battle, and is given next to no motivation aside from being pure evil. Nobody remembers that Zemus was the main villain of Final Fantasy IV; everybody probably thinks its Golbez. Ultimecia was as generic as one could get, with no real motivation or character established, no backstory given, and wasn't even seen till the end of her game. Final Fantasy IX barely avoids this by virtue of having Kuja upstage Garland towards the end. Final Fantasy X's villains are so uninspiring, that Dissidia made Jecht the villain representative for the game.

The only mainline Final Fantasy game that attempted to not do the whole generic doomsday villain schtick was Final Fantasy XII.

An FF villain doesn't have to be complex in motivation, as long as they have style and passion. I think they also usually need to to have a lot of flunkies or competition to give things flavor.

I actually liked the villains and the conflict in the 13 series a lot. It does have a complex lore, but when you break it down it goes like this.

13: Magic robots created by god like beings are tired of serving humanity. They go crazy and want to murder-suicide everything. They cant so they make a complicated plan to circumnavigate their programing.

13-2 Immortal who wants to kill a goddess that literally controls the cycle of life and death to end the unending torment of the woman he loves

13-3 It's the worst one admittedly, but I mostly blame the translation. There's a lot of competition and uncertainty on who the actual big bad is, (and the characters and conflicts are interesting) But when it's all said and done it's a generic evil "god" of this verse who wants to grab everyone's souls so they can start everything over again. In the jap version he has more personality and wants to bang lighting, but our virgin ears weren't ready for it apparently.

Caius Ballad from 13-2 in particular is SUPER underrated with a fantastic soundtrack.

I love how when you step back, he is the FF Villain that Will always win and lose at the same time. He is both the unstoppable force and the immovable object. A continuously screwed giga chad.


Really the 13 franchise problems stem from the abrupt presentation and confusing terminology that you actually have to stop and learn. From a storytelling and lore standpoint I thought it was a lot more interesting then 15 and 16 combined. Admittedly Ive never played it, I only watched the cutscenes on youtube (I hate turn based, sue me) But it was an ambitious and interesting story they tried to tell.

 

[Soycast Guy]

Caius was the only good FFXIII villain.

 

[Dumpster dived waifu]

Caius was the only good FFXIII villain.

What, you didn't like small god and actual god? Caius is a good villain, but you're using a very low bar here.

 

[Soycast Guy]

What, you didn't like small god and actual god? Caius is a good villain, but you're using a very low bar here.

You mean Bhunivelze? A slightly better Ultima.

 

[Michael Wade]

You mean Bhunivelze? A slightly better Ultima.

Agreed, translation issues not withstanding.

I thought barthandelus from vanilla 13 was pretty fun. Cant go wrong with an evil magical robot replicant pope.



Etro in 13-2 had really interesting lore. The problem was they were trying to pull an MCU and have her show up in FF13 Versus. That didn't really go anywhere (for now)

So what you've got left is a character that everybody talks about, but has no real physical presence and apparently dies offscreen. She did actually show up in FF agito/Type O but even less people talk about that because of how much that was botched translation and presentation wise. So much so, you can be forgiven for not realizing who she is.




Her whole goal in that was to basically ground hog day loop a particular world until she figures out a way to open Etro's gate. Because the relm of death/life/heaven? is cut off directly from the world of the living. (I think this needed to be done in order to recover from her "death" in 13-2? She may also be working with or under some other sibling god named Lindzei)

In order to do that she attempts to cultivate a bunch of chosen teenagers with strong souls to open it up. When that doesn't work and the wars all end, Gala shows up (dont ask who the hell he is, its not explained)



He also trys to get the gate open... by killing everyone by starting a apocalyptic massacre.

We are talking end of evangelion shit in FF. with a thousand floating knights just killing everything in sight. It was actually pretty cool.



He looks badass, unfortunately, he is seen for less then a minute before he possesses Cid to end the world and turns into a monster voiced by a generic bad guy steve blum.


This actually looks cooler then when you fight it.


What im trying to say is that Type O may have one of the most convoluted FF story's with a bad localization job known to man.

You're probably better off reading the manga. That did a far better job of selling how crapsack and interesting the world actually is. (nobody mourns their dead or places any value on empathy for suffering because you're forgotten when you die. MORE SOULS FOR THE SOUL DOOR! )

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

13: Magic robots created by god like beings are tired of serving humanity. They go crazy and want to murder-suicide everything. They cant so they make a complicated plan to circumnavigate their programing.

The problem is that their "complicated plan" falls apart under any real scrutiny. The L'cie (who are all working together apparently, despite there being a nominal war between Pulse and Cocoon) decide to brand these six random people and give them a vague, hazy glimpse of what they want them to do, not actually explaining what they are supposed to accomplish or how to actually accomplish it. These six people who neither know, or trust each other, and have no idea what they are doing are supposed to complete the L'cie's grand plan, which they don't even know what that is. What's more, these individuals are at each other's throats almost immediately, nearly kill each other (or themselves) at various points, and could have died at any point. Barthandelus doesn't come out and just tell the characters what their supposed to do until 15 hours into the game after the cast just kinda wander around aimlessly in different directions. Of course, one must ask why Barthandelus didn't just brand any of his own loyal followers brainwashed into his cult and tell them to carry out Cocoon's destruction, since they would know what to do and actually see it through. Why use these random assholes who are not guaranteed to accomplish jack and shit?

What's more, once the main characters actually find out what they L'cie want them to do, they naturally say "Fuck you, we're not doing that" because of course they would. Cocoon is their home. Why would they destroy it (Lightning's bout of sociopathic nihilism notwithstanding)? Even more to the point, when Barthandelus faces them the second time and basically goads them to return to Cocoon and finish what they started, the main cast have to do to stop the villain's plans is refuse to do so, take turns eating Sazh's gun and shooting themselves, and the villains plans would fall apart instantly. Do they do that? No, they go back to Cocoon and do what the villains wanted them to do, dooming Cocoon, which is, by all rights, what should have happened, but the game pulls a Deus Ex Machina at the last minute to give a happy ending. Because Final Fantasy XIII is fucking retarded and everything about it is retarded. Barthandelus isn't even really an interesting villain, nor is he threatening, because the party literally kicks his every time they face him.

 

[ShiftyBoi]

Oh are we sperging about 13? Awesome.

Really the 13 franchise problems stem from the abrupt presentation and confusing terminology that you actually have to stop and learn. From a storytelling and lore standpoint I thought it was a lot more interesting then 15 and 16 combined. Admittedly Ive never played it, I only watched the cutscenes on youtube (I hate turn based, sue me) But it was an ambitious and interesting story they tried to tell.

It's not turn based, you only play as one character the other two are AI controlled.
I really love the characters, with a couple asterisks.
All the male characters actually have a chance to be interesting but are hindered in one way or another. Hope can be annoying as fuck and really angsty, but has a good character arc, and very wholesome relationship with Lightning. (he should have used her knife and not a boomerang) Sazh could be less comedic and maybe more of a voice of reason, considering he is a father, however he also has nothing to do for most of the game besides be the gangs personal chauffeur, (how progressive). Snow would be cooler if he had his Xiii-2 look, not the stupid bandanna, and also if he had more going on then "I luv my wife". Like he could be the games version of Barrett, complete with his own rag tag group, but instead he's just the loud dumb one.
The female characters save for Vanille are good. Vanille is a lot of really bad combinations. She's a knowing liar to pretty much the entire cast and her sickly sweet attitude makes it seem like she doesn't actually care that much. She inadvertently doomed Sazh's son for most of the game, and never tells him until they're both cornered by the military. Also her weapon is stupid.

The problem is that their "complicated plan" falls apart under any real scrutiny. The L'cie (who are all working together apparently, despite there being a nominal war between Pulse and Cocoon) decide to brand these six random people and give them a vague, hazy glimpse of what they want them to do, not actually explaining what they are supposed to accomplish or how to actually accomplish it. These six people who neither know, or trust each other, and have no idea what they are doing are supposed to complete the L'cie's grand plan, which they don't even know what that is. What's more, these individuals are at each other's throats almost immediately, nearly kill each other (or themselves) at various points, and could have died at any point. Barthandelus doesn't come out and just tell the characters what their supposed to do until 15 hours into the game after the cast just kinda wander around aimlessly in different directions. Of course, one must ask why Barthandelus didn't just brand any of his own loyal followers brainwashed into his cult and tell them to carry out Cocoon's destruction, since they would know what to do and actually see it through. Why use these random assholes who are not guaranteed to accomplish jack and shit?

What's more, once the main characters actually find out what they L'cie want them to do, they naturally say "Fuck you, we're not doing that" because of course they would. Cocoon is their home. Why would they destroy it (Lightning's bout of sociopathic nihilism notwithstanding)? Even more to the point, when Barthandelus faces them the second time and basically goads them to return to Cocoon and finish what they started, the main cast have to do to stop the villain's plans is refuse to do so, take turns eating Sazh's gun and shooting themselves, and the villains plans would fall apart instantly. Do they do that? No, they go back to Cocoon and do what the villains wanted them to do, dooming Cocoon, which is, by all rights, what should have happened, but the game pulls a Deus Ex Machina at the last minute to give a happy ending. Because Final Fantasy XIII is fucking retarded and everything about it is retarded. Barthandelus isn't even really an interesting villain, nor is he threatening, because the party literally kicks his every time they face him.

The big problem with the game is that they took the 10 approach of having a big twist and a really complex set of vague rules, and then ended up having to write around those things. Like 10 had vague rules that made no sense but it followed them, 13 has vague rules it never explains, and then it proceeds to break them in a way it never explains. And the villains have even less presence, and their plan is retarded. It's supposed to go with the theme of defying your fate or something, but it doesn't make any sense, especially with some of the ass pulls at the end. Instead of finding a new way of saving the day you do everything they tell you to, obeying your fate, and then last minute pull out a trump card that didn't even work the first time (being ragnarok).

Even more bizarre is that the main characters are Pulse fal'cie, meaning their mission doesn't make any sense. The only way to save cocoon is to destroy orphan, so why would the pulse fal'cie want to destroy it? Do they not know how the suicide vest mechanics of the planet work? Do they not know that ragnarok can turn lava into crystals? Do the cocoon fal'cie not know? Literally the only way they can accomplish anything they haven't been programmed to do is to triple dog dare some random human to do it for them.

At the end of the game during the attack on Eden, we even see the sanctum fal'cie turning random soldiers into l'cie, who then turn into sacrifice cie'th immediately. So a fal'cie can knowingly give a human a focus that they can fail almost instantly. Why do they need an attack from Pulse to destroy cocoon? Just have the crystal zombies do it. This sounds like Metal Gear Survive.

You know what would've been an interesting break from the formula? Have the final boss sequence be preventing Orphan from killing itself. The lore says it can't kill itself, just don't make that the rule, just make it so it's sleeping or something. Like the giant stupid Orphan wheel thing shows up and casts doom on itself, so it'll die in like two minutes, and you have to cast healing and buffs on it to bring its health back up. Like a reverse boss fight. Cause why not? That's defying fate isn't it?

Caius from 13-2 is a better villain, because his motivations and actions actually work with the theme of fate, and he is directly antagonistic in a way that doesn't feel like he needs to show up and explain the plot like el Barto does.

13-2 is a better game overall, barring a few mandatory segments that drag on. And I never played Lightning Returns.
At least the artwork throughout the series, and especially the music is amazing. I am sad that this series will probably be buried and ignored by square, much like 8, and the people like me that are nostalgic for it can eat shit and buy the next spin off because lightning was in the trailer.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

It's not turn based, you only play as one character the other two are AI controlled.

XIII uses an active time battle system, but its a shitty one, one of the many things wrong with the game.

The big problem with the game is that they took the 10 approach of having a big twist and a really complex set of vague rules, and then ended up having to write around those things. Like 10 had vague rules that made no sense but it followed them, 13 has vague rules it never explains, and then it proceeds to break them in a way it never explains. And the villains have even less presence, and their plan is retarded. It's supposed to go with the theme of defying your fate or something, but it doesn't make any sense, especially with some of the ass pulls at the end. Instead of finding a new way of saving the day you do everything they tell you to, obeying your fate, and then last minute pull out a trump card that didn't even work the first time (being ragnarok).

Even more bizarre is that the main characters are Pulse fal'cie, meaning their mission doesn't make any sense. The only way to save cocoon is to destroy orphan, so why would the pulse fal'cie want to destroy it? Do they not know how the suicide vest mechanics of the planet work? Do they not know that ragnarok can turn lava into crystals? Do the cocoon fal'cie not know? Literally the only way they can accomplish anything they haven't been programmed to do is to triple dog dare some random human to do it for them.

At the end of the game during the attack on Eden, we even see the sanctum fal'cie turning random soldiers into l'cie, who then turn into sacrifice cie'th immediately. So a fal'cie can knowingly give a human a focus that they can fail almost instantly. Why do they need an attack from Pulse to destroy cocoon? Just have the crystal zombies do it. This sounds like Metal Gear Survive.

Pretty much everything wrong with the story described in a few paragraphs.

 

[Spitz]

How many pages would the story of FFXIII and all the menu-based glossary text fill up in a book? 500? I read a few of those glossary entries and said "screw it, I'll make it up as I go."

I liked how Sazh dealt with his predicament with humor, and the chocobo chick was a cool addition.