Team Fortress 2 - Hat Fortress 2: America's #1 War-themed Hat Simulator

[Vonel]

Old Sandman is dumb, taking away movement and action from a player in a game that's reactive in nature sucks balls. Compare that to the mechanic some people complain about as well, airblast. You have the option to shoot the Pyro dead. If you're stunned, you are forced into third person and can't do shit but pray the Scout misses his cleaver. Complete cancer.

If old = good is your argument, a la Gabber, consider the literal pay-to-win cosmetic + weapon sets that used to be in the game. The most grievous offenders being Snipers you couldn't kill with a headshot (Crocodile), Spies with silent Dead Ringers (Fez) and Scouts that had more HP than you because they had a hat on (Milkman).

Wrong. Yes it's annoying when it happens but 9/10 times it happens it's my fault. I was either in an area of the map I shouldn't be or playing with glazed over eyes and not react to a scout pulling the sandman out, end of story. If not for the ball I normally would have been attacked by a sniper/demo/soldier and had less of a fighting chance. Pissbabies malded over players being better than them with a certain playstyle and DEMANDED that valve remove it instead of getting gud and playing off the downsides of that playstyle.

No one thought the hat combos was a good idea. Don't try and connect the hat combo bullshit to a weapon set that fundementally changes how you play a class.

 

[Conan]

Wrong. Yes it's annoying when it happens but 9/10 times it happens it's my fault. I was either in an area of the map I shouldn't be or playing with glazed over eyes and not react to a scout pulling the sandman out, end of story. If not for the ball I normally would have been attacked by a sniper/demo/soldier and had less of a fighting chance. Pissbabies malded over players being better than them with a certain playstyle and DEMANDED that valve remove it instead of getting gud and playing off the downsides of that playstyle.

No one thought the hat combos was a good idea. Don't try and connect the hat combo bullshit to a weapon set that fundementally changes how you play a class.

I'll never understand the cry of "you're bad, git gud" from the people who need to take away your gun to kill you and bitch now that stunned targets can shoot back.

"Ah no you see you are bad because you think you deserve your gun because words words words"

Sandtrannies truly are not human

 

[soy woah jaque]

it's my fault. I was either in an area of the map I shouldn't be or playing with glazed over eyes and not react to a scout pulling the sandman out, end of story. If not for the ball I normally would have been attacked by a sniper/demo/soldier and had less of a fighting chance. Pissbabies malded over players being better than them with a certain playstyle and DEMANDED that valve remove it instead of getting gud and playing off the downsides of that playstyle.

Is this gabber's clittyfarms account?

 

[Vonel]

I'll never understand the cry of "you're bad, git gud" from the people who need to take away your gun to kill you and bitch now that stunned targets can shoot back.

"Ah no you see you are bad because you think you deserve your gun because words words words"

Sandtrannies truly are not human

It was a gimmick weapon and playstyle that was rarely used before the nerf and is unusable now. Should we nerf the ubersaw too because two friends can ubersaw chain too?

"Everyone I disagree with is le tranny" grow up.

 

[Conan]

It was a gimmick weapon and playstyle that was rarely used before the nerf and is unusable now. Should we nerf the ubersaw too because two friends can ubersaw chain too?

"Everyone I disagree with is le tranny" grow up.

"I literally cannot get kills unless my opponent can't shoot back"

At least be honest.

r/tf2 is a safe space if you need it, away from mean slurs against heccin wholesome transfolx.

 

[EleventySeven]

The Old Sandman is only a problem if you take TF2 super seriously. Like a great many things in a game of this wackiness, it ran afoul of the comp players and had to be nerfed. It's fun to hit people with the ball, not nearly as easy to follow up on if the person knows what's happening, and doesn't usually get more than one or two kills a round. It's a game with two instakill classes, insane knockback, invincibility beams, and random crits. The sandman was never a real issue if you're not playing sixes or highlander.

 

[piombo]

It was a gimmick weapon and playstyle that was rarely used before the nerf

excuse me did you seriously play the game or are you talking out of your ass? that combo was an incredibly popular choice for how easy it was to use, alternatives weren't overlooked because they were worse but because they required more brains to use compared to these two

Should we nerf the ubersaw too because two friends can ubersaw chain too?

unironically yes, 25% uber on hit is an absolutely gargantuan amount and it's completely retarded that it doesn't even have any actual drawbacks beyond a slower attack speed

 

[Conan]

It's a game with two instakill classes, insane knockback, invincibility beams, and random crits.

None of those things take away your ability to use your weapon. These false equivalencies are as tired and worn out as when scoutfags repeated them verbatim a decade ago.

Like I know scouts are fucking retards but they literally cannot comprehend having to kill somebody who can shoot back. It's almost like they really don't actually like TF2 and are kinda shit at it.

 

[GNU Abyss]

Wrong. Yes it's annoying when it happens but 9/10 times it happens it's my fault. I was either in an area of the map I shouldn't be or playing with glazed over eyes and not react to a scout pulling the sandman out, end of story. If not for the ball I normally would have been attacked by a sniper/demo/soldier and had less of a fighting chance. Pissbabies malded over players being better than them with a certain playstyle and DEMANDED that valve remove it instead of getting gud and playing off the downsides of that playstyle.

No one thought the hat combos was a good idea. Don't try and connect the hat combo bullshit to a weapon set that fundementally changes how you play a class.

It's my fault that I'm now stuck in third person because a throwable item hit me? Let's go with your situation, even if the scout could be behind you, half a map away or behind teammates. You see the Scout, this is that 1/10 situation where you saw him pull the weapon out. What now? Autistically jitter? Hide behind a corner like it's a Sniper?

It's fun to hit people with the ball, not nearly as easy to follow up on if the person knows what's happening, and doesn't usually get more than one or two kills a round

Muh lived experience tells me otherwise, to the point where people from the other team sometimes swapped to Direct Hit Soldier or (old, pre-nerf) LnL Demo as a rage pick.

It's a game with two instakill classes, insane knockback, invincibility beams, and random crits. The sandman was never a real issue if you're not playing sixes or highlander.

"Who cares, let people have fun" is a legitimately Reddit line of logic that has been worn through many times over. There's balancing the game according to the whims of a vocal minority that plays their very specific version of the game and then there's axing obvious bullshit. Different things.

 

[soy woah jaque]

unironically yes, 25% uber on hit is an absolutely gargantuan amount and it's completely retarded that it doesn't even have any actual drawbacks beyond a slower attack speed

At most take away the random crits but that's it, just because all his other melees are shit in comparison doesn't make the ubersaw OP, same with the crossbow, just because syringe guns are shit doesn't mean crossbow is OP

 

[piombo]

At most take away the random crits but that's it, just because all his other melees are shit in comparison doesn't make the ubersaw OP, same with the crossbow, just because syringe guns are shit doesn't mean crossbow is OP

the weapon could easily get a lower amount of uber, medic doesn't need to get rewarded this hard for doing something he really shouldn't do as the pure support class, his other melees are stuck being weak (and even by then the amputator is a great contender) in comparision since it takes a lot to be better than that 25% uber gain

also the crossbow is safe to call op on the basis of it doing everything at once, biggest one is having infinite ammo (34 darts is not an amount you'll ever run out with in a singular life), no pressure with reloading it since it reloads passively, no issue with dealing damage with it since it deals way more damage the syringes could ever do (especially in ranges where the medic can't deal the damage in question with the syringes) and it contends all of the mediguns (in terms of healing) since the spike healing it does is pretty fucking good all around.

there's probably more, but generally speaking medics are pidgeon-holed in ignoring everything else because these two options are THAT good, granted there's mediocre or bad melees like the solemn or the vita saw, but all of the syringes are pretty good as defensive tools, the overdose being the best example that comes to mind.

e: also removing random crits from the ubersaw would actually buff it, since it wants more hits to milk on targets

 

[soy woah jaque]

the weapon could easily get a lower amount of uber, medic doesn't need to get rewarded this hard for doing something he really shouldn't do as the pure support class, his other melees are stuck being weak (and even by then the amputator is a great contender) in comparision since it takes a lot to be better than that 25% uber gain

Taking away random crits would be more than enough to nerf it, you risk a lot by getting into melee range of an enemy as a medic, and without random crits even more so. Any lower amount of uber wouldn't be worth the risk, it would be faster to just play normally and build it up.

all of the syringes are pretty good as defensive tools

Syringe guns are dogshit for defense, which is on purpose as developers didn't want to give medic strong defensive options, they're only good for whatever bonus utility they may have.

biggest one is having infinite ammo (34 darts is not an amount you'll ever run out with in a singular life), no pressure with reloading it since it reloads passively,

This is not a problem, medic isn't supposed to go looking around for ammo or waste time reloading when he could be healing his teammates, it would only make playing as him more frustrating than it already is.

it deals way more damage the syringes could ever do (especially in ranges where the medic can't deal the damage in question with the syringes)

This is the only somewhat unbalanced aspect of the weapon, especially with random crits, and even then it doesn't break the game or make medic unfun to play against.

and it contends all of the mediguns (in terms of healing) since the spike healing it does is pretty fucking good all around.

It can be better than the medigun in specific situations where you need burst healing instead of a slow build up, but it's much slower and scales with distance, plus it can be hard to hit moving targets even at close range. This isn't a problem, it's fine for medic to have other healing options, this doesn't invalidate the medigun.

The only medic weapon that can actually be considered overpowered is the vaccinator, that's it.

 

[Shoresy]

For years I've seen people hating on "stun mechanics" like the stunball and Natascha's slowdown. I think those people are retards. It's just more compfag bullshit-ass whining.

 

[Conan]

For years I've seen people hating on "stun mechanics" like the stunball and Natascha's slowdown. I think those people are retards. It's just more compfag bullshit-ass whining.

No one gives a fuck about the sandman slowing you down. Nobody wants their fucking gun taken away.

Natascha is the worst minigun, is affected by distance, and doesn't remove the target's ability to shoot back. Like how are we still making these false equivalencies after 15 fucking years. Fuck make the sandman have a more severe slowdown, make the slowdown longer. I wouldn't mind. Just don't take away my ability to nail the fucker who lobbed the ball because really the biggest admission here is that some scouts are just bad at killing enemies that shoot back.

 

[Big Lenny]

Seriously, people complaining about hitting a sandman ball from half the map away? Try getting a crit bauble with the wrap assasin; its the same arc. Its HARD. The only class you're reliably going to punish at any meaningful distance is the sniper.

On the topic of "I can't shoot because I'm stunned"... Guess what else makes you unable to shoot? Being fucking dead. Sniper can flat out kill you across the map. Soldier can fire a crit rocket that can one shot you if you aren't paying attention.

Scout had to give up 15 health for a brief, unreliable stun mechanic that he could use once every 10 seconds. People also seem to forget that stunned mercs took only 75% of incoming damage.

The Sandman is now useless. It was nerfed too hard. There is no use case now. Its undoubtedly the worst melee weapon in the game. It actively works against the user, with no meaningful benefit.

 

[Conan]

Scout players confirmed for being unable to kill enemies that shoot back.

"But crockets and sniper and words words words!!!!"
Don't care, can still shoot em.

Sorry you can't lob a 3000 hu projectile as the fastest class and get a free kill anymore. Maybe you'll have to actually learn to shoot guys who shoot back.
Go play overwatch if you like that kind of thing.

 

[Big Lenny]

"But crockets and sniper and words words words!!!!"
Don't care, can still shoot em.

Ah, yes. The class famous for his back and forth combat, well known for giving his enemies a chance to engage with him: Sniper

 

[GNU Abyss]

Seriously, people complaining about hitting a sandman ball from half the map away? Try getting a crit bauble with the wrap assasin; its the same arc. Its HARD. The only class you're reliably going to punish at any meaningful distance is the sniper.

On the topic of "I can't shoot because I'm stunned"... Guess what else makes you unable to shoot? Being fucking dead. Sniper can flat out kill you across the map. Soldier can fire a crit rocket that can one shot you if you aren't paying attention.

Scout had to give up 15 health for a brief, unreliable stun mechanic that he could use once every 10 seconds. People also seem to forget that stunned mercs took only 75% of incoming damage.

If it could only stun from halfway across the map, nobody would be quite as upset at the weapon. You can stun at regular CQC engagement range, that's the issue. Random crits are, well, random. Sniper is retarded also, but that's an entirely different topic. As for the CD, stun a guy, cleaver, run in and pick up the ball. No more CD (at least on Sandman, guillotine is 5 seconds).

To put said engagement range into perspective, here's a popular video from back then with the relevant timestamp:

Notice how he deals about 100 to the Heavy, Heavy turns around to engage but - whoops, can't shoot and I'm dead. That's the shit I'm talking about. Also, look at the window you have to throw the cleaver. Unreliable, but only if you suffer from Parkinson's.

The Sandman is now useless. It was nerfed too hard. There is no use case now. Its undoubtedly the worst melee weapon in the game. It actively works against the user, with no meaningful benefit.

True, the nerf hit way too hard. Keeping the combo without the stun bullshit would've been fine. Mark with Sandman, hit the target that's still moving at normal speed with the cleaver. Regular damage melee crit at a distance is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[piombo]

Seriously, people complaining about hitting a sandman ball from half the map away? Try getting a crit bauble with the wrap assasin; its the same arc. Its HARD. The only class you're reliably going to punish at any meaningful distance is the sniper.

speaking of moonshots yes, they are pretty hard to nail but they're pretty much death sentences so the payoff is kind of balanced in itself, the bigger issue is that you should talk about encounters in close quarters, most engagements with an half decent scout end in mere seconds (even less if you used the guillotine) and 2 seconds (mininum) of being unable to dodge anything with not even the ability to defend yourself were also another death sentence on average, guillotine or no guillotine.

On the topic of "I can't shoot because I'm stunned"... Guess what else makes you unable to shoot? Being fucking dead. Sniper can flat out kill you across the map. Soldier can fire a crit rocket that can one shot you if you aren't paying attention.

yes, but they kill you right then and there, with a stun you're basically waiting to die since it's retarded to expect a scout to miss his cleaver and/or meatshots, either you're a god at dodging or you just die

Scout had to give up 15 health for a brief, unreliable stun mechanic that he could use once every 10 seconds. People also seem to forget that stunned mercs took only 75% of incoming damage.

the stun was mostly reliable unless you were going for minimum distance shots, which as again did not rely on distance but on travel time and it causes some issues due to some source fuckery afaik, and the damage resist applies only on moonshots, to quote the wiki

August 13, 2009 Patch (Classless Update)

• The Sandman's stun effect went under numerous changes.
  • Players using this weapon will now receive 1 point for stunning an enemy and 2 points for a long range stun.
  • Stunned players now take 75% of all incoming damage instead of 50%.
  • ÜberCharged players can no longer be stunned.
  • Heavies spinning their Miniguns will continue to spin when stunned (whether the left or right mouse button is pressed).
  • The minimum distance to stun a target has been reduced.
• The negative attribute was changed from "no double jump" to "-30 max health".
• [Undocumented] Primary fire for the Sandman now swings the bat, while alt-fire now launches the baseball.
• [Undocumented] Added swinging animations to the Sandman when a Scout swings the bat with the ball still in his hand.

December 17, 2009 Patch (WAR! Update)

• The Sandman will only stun on a max range hit.
• All shorter hits now force the enemy into the third-person fleeing state (also removed the damage reduction on them).
• A recharge sound was added to the Sandman's recharge ability.

The Sandman is now useless. It was nerfed too hard. There is no use case now. Its undoubtedly the worst melee weapon in the game. It actively works against the user, with no meaningful benefit.

that's sadly true, the stun is the sandman and without it it dies pretty quickly since it was the only selling point it had

 

[Big Lenny]

To put said engagement range into perspective, here's a popular video from back then with the relevant timestamp:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2vLg0kk9k:34

Looking at that video, I would argue that if a scout had managed to sneak behind the enemy team at last to flank a heavy, the enemy team has big enough problems as it stands. A sentry, or even just a more aware team could have shut him down.

Scout will always have the advantage when getting a jump on a heavy. He just as easily could have slid behind behind the heavy and landed three shots at close range to take him down in roughly the same time.

Really think about what you needed to commit to to pull off the combo. You had to give up 15 health and ditch your pistol. The pistol is one of the most reliable secondaries in the game. Reminder that the pistol alone can kill 8/9 classes in a single clip. Scout takes a while to reload all his shots. Forgoing the pistol for a once-per-fight combo is risky; even if you're good at hitting it.

Regardless, even if you're going to make the case that the combo was a titch strong in a 1v1, the combo could have been nerfed independently of the stun.