Team Fortress 2 - Hat Fortress 2: America's #1 War-themed Hat Simulator

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Best class(es) to play as?

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The Homelander said:
I think the hostility is retarded. I don't see why we can't entertain a discussion about random crits without sperging out lol. The simple answer against removing them is "if it aint broke, don't fix it". If you want your comp leagues to go without random crits thats fine, but the effect they have on casual play is wildly overstated by proponents of removal. Personally I could take them or leave them, so I don't have much of a horse in this race.
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People didn't used to get assmad about random crits when the community server scene was more alive. People used to simply play on servers that upheld their preferred game rules.
 
Penis said:
People didn't used to get assmad about random crits when the community server scene was more alive. People used to simply play on servers that upheld their preferred game rules.
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Only wannabe compfag tryhards would bitch about them. My old server had several ones, and they all had a "random crits are fair and balanced" chat bind. It got old very fast, to the point where admins would just immediately toggle drugs on them for the remainder of the map.
 
Patrick Bait-man said:
Competitivization + Community Server Erosion + Uncle Dane Mass Brainwashing = Current state of random crit discussion.
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The current state of random crit discussion is exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. Some people like them and some people don't. The only difference is Valve raped and killed community servers so people who don't like them can't fuck off, and Uncle Dane gave them autistic ammunition when the only argument they ever needed was "I don't find it fun".
 
Interesting video that just dropped into my recommendations:


He basically agrees with Zesty's points, and adds the context that he believes a lot of the competitive scene was basically high on hopium about Valve finally giving them limelight, and did not understand the consequences of matchmaking.
 
Pierre D'Olnique said:
Only wannabe compfag tryhards would bitch about them. My old server had several ones, and they all had a "random crits are fair and balanced" chat bind. It got old very fast, to the point where admins would just immediately toggle drugs on them for the remainder of the map.
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Eh, I disagree. What class you play is also going to be a factor in how you feel about random crits. In general, a guy who plays Medic or Spy is going to feel very differently about them than a Soldier or Demo main. Kind of sucks when you are at 90% Über, and eat shit to a random crit rocket.

There's also the argument that they completely subvert Sniper's greatest weakness of close range combat.
 
I have no logical argument for keeping random crits, I just know that if they get removed it would make compfags happy. So I want to keep it
 
This isn’t the end said:
I have no logical argument for keeping random crits, I just know that if they get removed it would make compfags happy. So I want to keep it
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They level the playing field when made truly random, not scaled off DPS when you're on a roll. Fuck it, you could even scale them off how an individual player underperforms, as opposed to how it is now. Completely deterministic combat makes even minute differences into all-out stomps, just look at Quake and its derivatives. This doesn't fit inside a casual, pub-first shooter.

Penis said:
I will never forgive compfags for ruining the GRU, parachute, and sandman.
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Old Sandman is dumb, taking away movement and action from a player in a game that's reactive in nature sucks balls. Compare that to the mechanic some people complain about as well, airblast. You have the option to shoot the Pyro dead. If you're stunned, you are forced into third person and can't do shit but pray the Scout misses his cleaver. Complete cancer.

If old = good is your argument, a la Gabber, consider the literal pay-to-win cosmetic + weapon sets that used to be in the game. The most grievous offenders being Snipers you couldn't kill with a headshot (Crocodile), Spies with silent Dead Ringers (Fez) and Scouts that had more HP than you because they had a hat on (Milkman).
 
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GNU Abyss said:
Old Sandman is dumb, taking away movement and action from a player in a game that's reactive in nature sucks balls. Compare that to the mechanic some people complain about as well, airblast. You have the option to shoot the Pyro dead. If you're stunned, you are forced into third person and can't do shit but pray the Scout misses his cleaver. Complete cancer.
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i'll partially agree on the sandman part:
  1. the bigger issue with the sandman in itself is less that the stun exists but that the stun duration is overtuned as fuck, at the mininum distance (that is not that gaugeable since it's mostly based on travel time) is a two seconds of you being at the complete mercy of the scout that threw his ball, which either gets followed up with the easiest meatshots of this planet since you basically waddle around at half speed or...
  2. the cleaver, which is a fast as fuck projectile that has nothing that identifies its existence (i fucking dare anyone to tell me that you can clearly see this
    do you even see this shit.png
    projectile that travels for 3000 hu/s or twice the speed of the liberty launcher) that will deal a flat 195 at any distance if you are stunned, and yes in most engagements you WILL be stunned since the sandman ball is as fast in terms of projectile speed
the cleaver is obviously not op (if you exclude this combination) since you're still trading the pistol for a single shot projectile, but i will still die on the hill that combination is absolutely cancerous as fuck and the cleaver made the already overtuned stuns actual cancer to fight against.

GNU Abyss said:
Scouts that had more HP than you because they had a hat on (Milkman).
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the best part of the castaway reverts is that it's there (and even better) in the form of the pretty pocket's pistol, i don't think there needs to be an explanation on why increasing the max hp/giving him normal hp while having the sandman and letting him use the stock scattergun while at it is a bad idea at least
 
Anyway this game is unplayable, guns aren't tested properly, sniper got a gun where they forgot to make it shoot when you aren't aimed in
 
On the topic of random crits, I'll risk fueling the fire by throwing in my two cents: I personally don't care for them and ideally, I wouldn't have them enabled by default. They disproportionately reward some classes more than others. A Soldier or Demo getting a crit on their rocket or sticky bomb will be way more impactful than a Scout getting one on their pistol. Furthermore, I don't really feel any satisfaction on getting a crit kill because I don't feel like I've 'earned' the kill, but I'm plenty mad when I get killed by a random crit. However, I don't bear any ill will to people who prefer random crits - TF2 is a chaotic game and they arguably add to the chaos.

I've been playing a lot of Team Fortress 2 Classic lately and I really like the middle ground they struck; random crits are disabled, except for melee weapons. You don't have to worry about instantly getting annihilated by a stray pill or Heavy's minigun, but a duel that comes down to melee weapons might still be decisively ended by a lucky strike. It's great for classes like Medic or Engineer that passively build up crit potential so they can use it to get out of a sticky situation, but it averts the problem of pubstompers stomping harder. After some time, I think it's my ideal system.
 
GNU Abyss said:
They level the playing field when made truly random, not scaled off DPS when you're on a roll. Fuck it, you could even scale them off how an individual player underperforms, as opposed to how it is now. Completely deterministic combat makes even minute differences into all-out stomps, just look at Quake and its derivatives. This doesn't fit inside a casual, pub-first shooter.


Old Sandman is dumb, taking away movement and action from a player in a game that's reactive in nature sucks balls. Compare that to the mechanic some people complain about as well, airblast. You have the option to shoot the Pyro dead. If you're stunned, you are forced into third person and can't do shit but pray the Scout misses his cleaver. Complete cancer.

If old = good is your argument, a la Gabber, consider the literal pay-to-win cosmetic + weapon sets that used to be in the game. The most grievous offenders being Snipers you couldn't kill with a headshot (Crocodile), Spies with silent Dead Ringers (Fez) and Scouts that had more HP than you because they had a hat on (Milkman).
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Did you even play in that era? The stun effect scales with distance. The further away the scout was from his target, the longer the stun would be. If a scout bonked you within his effective range, the effect would barely last long enough from the scout to switch to his primary.

It was a hard weapon to use effectively. It had very niche use cases, and you had to flat out give up ~12% of your health on a light class to even equip it. Outside of the combo, it was only really good to use on a retreating player to close the distance.

If you wanted to combine it with the Cleaver combo, you were down 15 health and had to give up your pistol. Then, you had to land two consecutive small projectiles in quick succession that have different arcs. It was far from a free -195.

I don't remember hearing anybody bitching about the sandman other than compfags. TF2 is riddled with movement impeding effects on every class. Soldier and demo can pop people up. Pyro has airblast. Sentries deal heavy knockback. Scout has FaN.

The old Dangershield is a different discussion entirely.
 
Penis said:
I don't remember hearing anybody bitching about the sandman other than compfags. TF2 is riddled with movement impeding effects on every class. Soldier and demo can pop people up. Pyro has airblast. Sentries deal heavy knockback. Scout has FaN.
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Pubbers bitched about it because yes all those things you listed do take away movement but the sandman took away your gun. Now put that on the fastest projectile on the fastest class and you better believe it wasn't just the compfags that didn't like it.

It's the most disingenuous argument to say movement impairment exists in TF2 in the form of pushback as a way to justify having your ability to shoot removed. Talk about a motte and bailey
 
Penis said:
TF2 is riddled with movement impeding effects on every class. Soldier and demo can pop people up. Pyro has airblast. Sentries deal heavy knockback. Scout has FaN.
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Soldier & Demo: airstrafe and/or shoot them. Pyro: airstrafe (with the new airblast, old airblast was way more annoying), shoot him. Sentries don't stun you, neither does FaN. My problem isn't impeding movement, it's my movement and my guns being taken away. I don't really care for the hoops another player had to jump through to do this, having these things go poof in a first person shooter is genuine AIDS.

As for playing, yes. Played with the Cleaver/Sandman often, that's how I remember it. Even a short stun was enough for a -195 because your enemy was practically standing still because of the stun effect. You didn't need to worry about dodging because they can't do shit.
 
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